Water leak!

Photomom

Dewinterizing today and found a water leak. Aargh! I opened the bench and pulled the shower access panel off and all the plastic pipes and joints are intact and dry. It looks like water is leaking from under the shower pan.

What might the problem be, and how can I find it? We are due to leave for a trip on Friday.

Sharon_is_SAM

@Verna had some kind of a leak in that area in her 320.

Verna

@Photomom unscrew the panel behind your shower, on the cabin side of your bathroom wall. Check the shower pipes. Sometimes a check valve type of “ball” doesn’t fall into place and it causes a leak (this is what the dealer told me). 

Also, look under your driver’s side bench and around the Alde pipes.

Just because the water is under the shower doesn’t mean the leak is right there. 

Photomom

@Verna, I’m way ahead of you - all the plastic pipes and connections inside the bench are dry. The shower pipes inside that access panel next to the TV are dry. Water is visibly oozing from under the shower onto the floor in the bench area.

I have no idea what this check valve thing is - does anyone who might be reading my tale of woe know?

ScottG

I've been dewinterizing the last couple days and noticed that most of the hand-tightened threaded fitting were in need of a snug-up. These fittings connect the sink faucet to the pex under the sink, and the pump to the tank on one side and the CW distribution on the other. I believe there is also a threaded fitting where the city water inlet connects to the plumbing. If one of those connections in the nether regions behind the toilet were loose and leaking, water would very likely pool under the shower. Getting to those fittings to tighten them (particularly the city water inlet) requires skinny arms, some creating contortions, and a bit of cursing, but you should be able to reach them by feel through the little access door.

Barring a loose fitting, a leak in or around your shower pan could also be the culprit. Does the water continue to ooze even when the shower pan is completely dry?

Bayliss

This conversation might help re the check valve:

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/7451/city-water-fresh-water-tank-cross-connect

Is there any possibility that the water you are seeing is condensation?

The only other thing I could think of, based upon your finding of no water pipes around water lines, etc., is water backing up to the shower from the gray water holding tank.  However, I assume that tank is empty since you are de-winterizing.

Hope you figure it out............very curious about what you ultimately find.  (Greg)

Photomom

Bayliss said:

This conversation might help re the check valve:

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/7451/city-water-fresh-water-tank-cross-connect

Is there any possibility that the water you are seeing is condensation?

The only other thing I could think of, based upon your finding of no water pipes around water lines, etc., is water backing up to the shower from the gray water holding tank.  However, I assume that tank is empty since you are de-winterizing.

Hope you figure it out............very curious about what you ultimately find.  (Greg)

The pump and it’s fittings are dry. The gray tank is empty other that last fall’s antifreeze and the water that went in from the sink, no more than 5 gallons.

I taped some paper towels to a flexible rod and poked it down in the compartment where the water pump is and everything was dry down inside there.

This ain’t condensation.

Photomom

ScottG said:

I've been dewinterizing the last couple days and noticed that most of the hand-tightened threaded fitting were in need of a snug-up. These fittings connect the sink faucet to the pex under the sink, and the pump to the tank on one side and the CW distribution on the other. I believe there is also a threaded fitting where the city water inlet connects to the plumbing. If one of those connections in the nether regions behind the toilet were loose and leaking, water would very likely pool under the shower. Getting to those fittings to tighten them (particularly the city water inlet) requires skinny arms, some creating contortions, and a bit of cursing, but you should be able to reach them by feel through the little access door.

Barring a loose fitting, a leak in or around your shower pan could also be the culprit. Does the water continue to ooze even when the shower pan is completely dry?

The shower pan is dry, we didn’t run any water into the shower drain. We DID flush the toilet a few times.

Sharon_is_SAM

This is what I was thinking about, but the shower P trap is below the floor, so you should not have water under the bench from a P trap leak.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/6090/teaser-alert-what-does-it-look-like-under-your-shower-repair-completed

Not sure what kind of connection is behind the fresh water feed for the toilet.

Photomom

Some guy on the Facebook page told me how to troubleshoot the toilet check valve and that is very promising. Will look at that tomorrow.

jkjenn

Photomom said:

Some guy on the Facebook page told me how to troubleshoot the toilet check valve and that is very promising. Will look at that tomorrow.

I hope it works out for you!

BrianZ

@Photomom,
I agree with Scott (except that you may not be able to reach the city water inlet fitting unless you have plyers or very long arms.  It's directly under the fresh water inlet, which also makes it hard to reach. I would suspect the city water inlet valve is loose on the inside.  I posted photos of this leaky part recently, which I fixed by tightening the nut by reaching down behind the toilet with vicegrips - not easy & long arms would have helped.  My main symptom was water leaking from under the front end, but if yours was nose-high then it could run towards the back.

http://tabforum.nucamprv.com/#/discussion/8617/fresh-water-leak-help-needed-fixed/p1

PS:  what you might think is the bottom of the compartment below the water pump is probably the top of the black water tank which extends forward near the front wall.  There is only one narrow space between the tank & the driver side wall where the actual floor is exposed, and it's a small area in the corner, a few inches at most.  That is where water would fall from a leaky city water port.  From there it can leak out through the floor to the ground or run back beside the shower to the rear, depending on tilt.  We generally keep our nose slightly down, so ours leaked at the front edges of the floor.

4ncar

Photomom said:

Some guy on the Facebook page told me how to troubleshoot the toilet check valve and that is very promising. Will look at that tomorrow.

...some guy...🙄...would be me! Lol...😒 I used to make impressions! Lol

ChanW

@4ncar, are you sure that toilet valve impressions are what you want to be remembered for?!?  

ChanW

ditto @ScottG, re tightening up the plumbing fittings. 

I 'just happened' to check the kitchen sink supplies last fall, and they were quite loose. Not leaking (yet), thank goodness.

ScottG said:

I've been dewinterizing the last couple days and noticed that most of the hand-tightened threaded fitting were in need of a snug-up. These fittings connect the sink faucet to the pex under the sink, and the pump to the tank on one side and the CW distribution on the other. I believe there is also a threaded fitting where the city water inlet connects to the plumbing. If one of those connections in the nether regions behind the toilet were loose and leaking, water would very likely pool under the shower. Getting to those fittings to tighten them (particularly the city water inlet) requires skinny arms, some creating contortions, and a bit of cursing, but you should be able to reach them by feel through the little access door.
.....

Photomom

4ncar said:

Photomom said:

Some guy on the Facebook page told me how to troubleshoot the toilet check valve and that is very promising. Will look at that tomorrow.

...some guy...🙄...would be me! Lol...😒 I used to make impressions! Lol

Hi! It’s hard to know who is who between there and here...

So I found a video on YouTube about replacing the check valve and learned that it is exposed on the back side of the toilet. If that were leaking I would think it would feel wet to the touch and would drip behind the toilet onto the shower floor. My shower floor is dry. The water seems to be coming from UNDER the shower pan. Am I understanding this correctly?

ChanW

Yes, that's correct. 

When the valve on our toilet froze and cracked, it leaked into the shower.

edit: I confess, I don't know what a 'check valve' would be doing in the toilet though. Do you mean the supply valve, or do you mean the large drain/flush valve in the bowl?

Photomom said:

........

So I found a video on YouTube about replacing the check valve and learned that it is exposed on the back side of the toilet. If that were leaking I would think it would feel wet to the touch and would drip behind the toilet onto the shower floor. My shower floor is dry. The water seems to be coming from UNDER the shower pan. Am I understanding this correctly?

Photomom

ChanW said:

Yes, that's correct. 

When the valve on our toilet froze and cracked, it leaked into the shower.

edit: I confess, I don't know what a 'check valve' would be doing in the toilet though. Do you mean the supply valve, or do you mean the large drain/flush valve in the bowl?

Photomom said:

........

So I found a video on YouTube about replacing the check valve and learned that it is exposed on the back side of the toilet. If that were leaking I would think it would feel wet to the touch and would drip behind the toilet onto the shower floor. My shower floor is dry. The water seems to be coming from UNDER the shower pan. Am I understanding this correctly?

This thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbWkCzIoOKc

ScottG

Photomom said:

...

The shower pan is dry, we didn’t run any water into the shower drain. We DID flush the toilet a few times.

ChanW said:

...
edit: I confess, I don't know what a 'check valve' would be doing in the toilet though. Do you mean the supply valve, or do you mean the large drain/flush valve in the bowl?

Well, that rules out a leaking shower pan. And, from what others say about the toilet valve, if it were leaking there would be water in the shower pan. I also share @ChanW's confusion regarding a "check valve" for the toilet.

Which brings us back to the spaghetti of plumbing in the uncharted wilderness behind the toilet and under the shower...

With a good light I can (sort of) shove half my head into the access door and peer down there with one eye. A mirror might help. (I think @BrianZ even used a small camera.) If you get lucky you might be able to see or feel a few drips when the system is pressurized.

If you get real lucky it might just be one of those fittings you can hand tighten a bit. Otherwise I would start inspecting the connections at the elbows, tees, and other fittings--I would much more expect a failure there than in a length of the PEX itself.

I'm following this with interest, so please keep us posted as to what you find.

BrianZ

And don't forget @Dalehelman's excellent suggestion for connecting an air compressor hose to the city water port, as if you were blowing out the system, except close all valves, then listen & feel for air leaks instead of adding more water.  I found my leak there before trying it, but tested with air first after tightening the check valve threaded collar with vice grips (not for tightening any more than by hand, but just to be able to reach it), before using water again.  

City water valve seems to be a fairly common leak versus one of the many Pex tubing fittings, which are very sturdy & would also be more difficult to fix because you need more space for working with a big pex wrench & two hands.

Here's one view from way down in the front driver side corner near floor with my 180° camera..

Water pump connection is at top left corner & trailer floor corner at bottom right.  The water lines & wiring conduit pipe in bottom half are going to the rear through the space below the white shower ledge seen above them.  Immediately above them at right is the suspect black collar screwed onto the city water connection check valve, located directly below the large corrugated fresh water inlet tubing.  The side of the black tank is just to left of the lowest blue water line.

Photomom

Okay, an update. Took @Dalehelman advice and pressurized the city water connection to 50 lbs. I did not feel any air coming out of any of the joints that I could reach in the space behind the toilet. 

There was some water in the lines from yesterday’s misadventure. With the lines pressurized I did NOT see any water coming out from under the shower pan like yesterday. 

There is one other thing that I’m thinking about and want to run it by my advisors here. I know from watching the video above that there is a seal on the underside of the toilet that seals it to the black tank. If that seal were cracked or damaged, is it possible that water might leak onto the black tank and run out under the shower pan?

Sharon_is_SAM

I do remember someone had a toilet misadventure and fluid traveled under the benches, but it wasn't water

ScottG

Photomom said:

...
There is one other thing that I’m thinking about and want to run it by my advisors here. I know from watching the video above that there is a seal on the underside of the toilet that seals it to the black tank. If that seal were cracked or damaged, is it possible that water might leak onto the black tank and run out under the shower pan?

I don't know with absolute certainty, as I have never removed the toilet, but it seems highly likely this could be the source of water under the shower. However, it would be pretty hard to check without removing and reinstalling the toilet, so a little more experimentation maybe in order.

Once everything is dried out down there, I'd suggest refilling the water system but NOT flushing the toilet.

If the puddle reappears you know it's not the toilet seal.

If the puddle doesn't reappear, give the throne a vigorous flush and check again. A fresh puddle would implicate the toilet seal.

If there's still no puddle, count your lucky starts and camp on!  :-)

pamela

Okay.  Sorry if this is not the right application.  We just had water leaking from underneath our shower in our T@B 400.  It turns out, after some investigation, that the  fitting in back of the outdoor shower that connects the sprayer hose to the faucet was loose (we had to remove the fixture to determine this).   We have never used our outdoor shower so the taps had always been turned off.  When we winterized last year, we had opened the taps.  Thus, when we pressurized the water system this spring, the water was able to go past the hot and cold water connections and leak out of the connection that connects the outdoor hose.

Photomom

Another update. We connected city water, gradually increased pressure until our tap was on all the way. Did not see any leaks from under the shower pan, waited a bit. I started putting some of the access panels and other stuff that I had moved before, this took maybe 15 minutes. Did not see any leaks. Stuck my hand down behind the toilet, did not feel any leaks around the city water inlet or anywhere else. Did not flush the toilet.

So we assumed maybe the toilet was the culprit and decided to sanitize the fresh water tank. Shortly after turning the pump on and starting to run the sink faucet, my husband yelled that he was seeing a leak under the trailer. So I stuck my hand back behind the toilet and sure enough there was water dripping from around the city water inlet. We did not have a hose attached to the city water.

Any ideas for me? We unscrewed the city water inlet on the outside of the trailer to see if we could see where the water was coming from but the hose on the back is tight and it would only come out about 1/4 inch.

How on earth does anyone fix anything in that area down behind the toilet?

Photomom

Jim, I’m a computer scientist, not a plumber!

Sharon_is_SAM

Ok, hang on Dr. McCoy.  Check out what BrianZ did:

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/8617/fresh-water-leak-help-needed-fixed/p1

BrianZ

I have a theory about the leak-prone city water inlet.  It appears here that when the pump is used as water source, a loose city port may leak, but may not leak when city water source is used.  I can add that when we first observed our leak from the city port, we were also using the pump after adding bleach water to pump through the system.  I recall thinking of all the leaked water inside that confined space and floor, etc, and saying "well, at least it's bleach water, so won't promote mold growth so much before it can dry out.  So, using the fresh water pump may be a common presentation for leakage from the city water port.  Seems counter-intuitive, but what is happening.

In any case, I am wondering now if when a hose is screwed into the city port & under pressure, that this may temporarily seal the leak around the loosened threaded collar around the check valve.  However when the water pressure is coming from the pump side of the city water check valve and there is not any opposing pressure from the other side, then it leaks.  So, while the connection is still loose on the inside, it only leaks when water pressure is coming from the inside, and not the outside (or perhaps when a hose is also fitted into the outside socket).  Just a theory, but also an observation.

4ncar

If you pull the toilet, this is what you will see.  There is a seal provided. It should be soft & pliable. You will notice that nucamp has sealed the floor pan pretty well, but I suppose it is possible that it could leak....the red thing is a stool cork that I had to prevent “sewer gases” from leaking...

ScottG

@Photomom, had you been running the pump the first time you noticed the leak?

pamela

Could the check valve on your city water intake be faulty?  Generally, when your pump is on, your system is pressurized the check valve should prevent water from escaping out of this connection.  However, when your pump is on, it leaks.  This is not apparent when you are connected to city water.  Likely this is because the pressure on both sides of the valve is generally equal. It is possible that the o-ring inside the check valve has become cracked or unseated.   Have you considered investigsting the city water input check valve?  Just a thought and, practically, I am not sure how difficult this is to access for you.