Is this normal?

idletab

I'm not going to remove the toilet and get myself further into trouble. The idea that the dealer may not be able to deal with this and I won't have any way to bring this to the factory, if they even allow that, makes me want to cry. Att a minimum all my summer camping is over and my trailer might legit be unusable through no fault of my own. 

VictoriaP

I think I’d try to get needle nose pliers or long nosed vice grips around some portion of the bolt stem to hold the bolt still while unthreading the nut. They’ll have to be repositioned as you move the nut up or down the threads, and it’s a two handed job, but it should be possible.

idletab

Ok, but to secure the bolt again, it's going to require more force than I can exert with needle nose pliers... And if I crush the threads, I'm hosed.

MiquelCamo

Those are new, non-corroded bolts and should tighten easily. I would try one to see if the bolt turns when retightening. If the bolt turns, it appears that the bolt may be long enough to put two additional nuts below and tighten them together. Then you can use the top one to hold the bolt with a second wrench as you tighten the bolt to the frame. If it doesn't work, call the factory and ask how to replace. 

idletab

I couldn't get the nut fully off, so I shoved the squished old washer back in the gap and tried to retighten - no luck, bolt turns. I don't understand the multi-nut technique you're describing, wouldn't the bolt just turn within multiple nuts instead of one then?

MiquelCamo

If you can't get the nut off then you will have to use a pair of long nose pliers to get the nut off. If it takes a lot of effort then the bolt may be stripped. Then add the washer, nut and two more nuts, use your two wrenches and tighten the two helper nuts so they "jam" one another. I took a quick picture, note that the last nut only has to have a couple of threads to hold it. Then you can use the middle nut to hold the bolt while you tighten. Of course, this will only work if there is enough length on the bolt. Good luck, wish I was there to help. 

idletab

Ah, is the key that all the nuts are the same size, just one is reversed at the end? Also, not sure how long nose pliers help as I can grab the nut... It just spins when I do. Really appreciate your help.

MiquelCamo

If you can't remove the original nut then the pliers can be used to hold the bolt on the threads as you loosen. Either above or below the nut as required when you take it off or put it back. As you mentioned, you'll want to be careful on the threads or they can be damaged. 

idletab

It's a good suggestion but I'm really scared of damaging the threads, if I hose the bolt I honestly don't know what I'd do. 

MiquelCamo

You could try the jam nuts to loosen also. Once the pressure is off the washer the nut may come right off. Just use the bottom nut to hold instead of the middle one. 

idletab

Just tried this... there is barely enough length for two nuts plus one barely threaded on, but then there's no room for anything to move. Maybe if I tried those thinner lock nuts they had at the store instead of the normal hex nut?

The pressure is off the washer, I think the bolt is partially stripped due to overtightening...

MiquelCamo

You might try thin nuts and possibly get past the damaged area but it's a crap shoot.

It may be time to call the factory and ask how the repair is to be done.

MiquelCamo

If you have the washer loose, can you take some pliers and squeeze it back to it's correct shape and retighten? 

idletab

That's sort of what I ended up doing, with a lot of struggle I was able to barely snug up the nut on top of the damaged washer, so it's still only contacting on the edges like before but I figure that will do until I get a better answer. I have contacted NuCamp and they are going to find out where I have to hold the bolt from above but I'm worried it's somewhere deeply concealed.

With the rest of the bolts tightened up and this one in a halfway OK spot, would you feel comfortable towing and camping in this one? I really want to camp tomorrow but I'm worried I'm inadvertently going to do damage if everything isn't perfect.

MiquelCamo

I wouldn't have an issue using the trailer. As mentioned previously, this is one of many mounting points. If you have an extra nut you could snug it up to the one that's there but I doubt that it's necessary. In any case, go camping, have a good time and revisit it later when you return. 

idletab

Thanks Miquel.

ScottG

+1 what MiquelCamo said. It's annoying, but I'd be darn surprised if one loose bolt causes your trailer to shake to pieces. If that were the case the road sides would littered with busted up campers!  ;-)

BrianZ

@idletab, I don't think you're going to be able to hold the bolt from above.  I believe those are elevator bolts which are used to secure the floor structure to the frame, and the floor is covered with vinyl.  See this factory photo by Cincykid of a floor after mounting to the frame, where you can see the flat heads of elevator bolts at the white arrows..

The green arrows are aluminum tubular beams inside the floor.
Here's a close-up photo of an elevator bolt..

The neck of the bolt is square, and in this case it's inside a square hole in a steel bar, but in the T@B floor it's going through a layer of composite material (and probably some aluminum frame) that may be either stripped or not strong enough to prevent twisting when nuts are tightened.
I thought these photos might help explain what's going on structurally.  I believe none of those bolt heads would be accessible without tearing up the floor, and even if you could access them, you still wouldn't be able to easily grip them.

idletab

That's pretty cool that I was told to replace these, then, knowing that there is an excellent chance I wouldn't be able to reassemble.

MiquelCamo

@idletab One more idea when you return from your trip. Hacksaw a little slot on the bottom of the bolt and try to hold it with a flat blade screwdriver while turning the nut with a hand wrench. You should be able to get a ratcheting wrench in there. 

MiquelCamo

idletab said:

That's pretty cool that I was told to replace these, then, knowing that there is an excellent chance I wouldn't be able to reassemble.

I would say the folks at the factory thought you could remove the nut, I sure thought so and I still think it can be done. :-) If you'd like to discuss send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number. 

ScottG

Great idea to saw a screwdriver slot in the base of the bolt so you can hold it from the bottom. If you have a Dremel-type tool with a cutting wheel, you might be able to do the same thing less awkwardly than with a hacksaw.

idletab

I appreciate the comments but I think I may be miscommunicating what's happening. You would think that when the nut had no pressure on it, it would just spin right off. That's not happening, I think because the bolt has somewhat damaged threads. I've cut a slot in the bottom of the bolt to hold with a screwdriver while I ratchet with a pass through socket set, but the bolt rises up towards the roof under pressure so it's difficult to exert enough pressure and keep the screwdriver in line.

I didn't want to completely botch the bolt up but it looks like my best next idea is to cut a deeper slot and hope I can keep the bolt from turning with less upward pressure.

Maybe the factory did think this was no problem, it certainly wasn't for the one I replaced in 3 minutes. A quick heads up that I'd possibly need these other tactics would have discouraged me from trying and made me leave it to my dealer. Just my two cents.

Tundra57

I had a number of issues also I fixed myself with support from the dealer. They are 4 hours away and I don't want to lose use of the camper.

I agree with an earlier post that you have to chose your battles. It is important however to post your problems on the Nucamp website so they are aware and post on this one so others also can be aware.

As for the bolt, make sure to spray liberally with PB Blast then when the but comes loose and the bolt starts turning out a flat screwdriver blade between the back of the but and the frame to maintain pressure. Keep this up until the nut comes off. When it's off use the screwdriver to wedge the bolt thread against the hole while you put on a flat washer and either star or cut spring washer. Then still wedged with screwdriver screw on nut. Once but clear of thread at end, grab end and screw down but all the way. If it will tighten great, if not get vice grips or pump pliers on the thread end while you tighten the nut. This should work unless you chewed up the thread at the end. If the thread at the very end is damaged you can grind off. The damaged bit. Don't grab anything on the thread until the nut is off and on its way back down so you don't damage the thread since we don't want to take the trailer apart just to tighten a bolt.

Unfortunately some workers have no pride in their work or are pushed due to higher production pressure (which is what I think is happening). You should always check yourself as much as you can and if you can't as an able friend to come along. Little stuff just deal with it yourself but always let Nucamp know.

jkjenn

 Tundra57 said:.

Unfortunately some workers have no pride in their work or are pushed due to higher production pressure (which is what I think is happening). You should always check yourself as much as you can and if you can't as an able friend to come along. Little stuff just deal with it yourself but always let Nucamp know.

It is not ways that cut and dry. Even high quality workers can get distracted by personal or work related stress, or just ha e a bad day and make mistakes. You also could have learning curve related issues. I work in the field of human performance a d see firsthand how many things impact performance. Employee engagement is difficult to achieve and maintain and even companies with good cultures have to constantly work to sustain it. There is really no way to know if it was because the worker was under production pressure, lacks pride or other, lacked skills and needed remediation, if there was a process flaw, or if, perhaps, the person was distracted. Having met many folks in the factory, I highly doubt it is from a lack of pride in their work or or production pressure. People in either of these situations, don't show up to have dinner with customers, and these folks do at üCamp. If you ever have a chance  for a factory tour, I highly recommend it and for an even better view of the company's posture towards customers, it is on full display at üCamp. If you ask Scott Hubble what the company y builds, he won't say campers he will say people, because their mission is us. 

tabiphile

idletab said:

And if I crush the threads, I'm hosed.

Let's get back to solving the problem which seems to be real enough to be causing @idletab lot's of angst. If you cut into the bolt to use a screwdriver on it, don't cut it deeper. Also, don't grab the bolt with needle nose pliers, vise grips, anything that will damage the threads. Since this is a blind bolt you need to be able to freely turn the nut on and off to make the repair. Buggering up the threads is not going to help.
Using a box end wrench slid it up over the bolt onto the nut and gently pull the wrench down a bit to secure the bolt to keep it from turning. Then use another nut (or the correct die) to repair the thread damage done by cutting a slot in the bolt. Thread the nut to start it and turn it with another wrench while you exert force on the box end to keep the bolt from turning. Work it on and off until it is a freely moving as possible. Use grease on the threads to make it run more freely. Once you have that second nut in place do the box end trick on the lower nut while you use a wrench to free the one you need to remove to extract and replace the lock washer. Don't york on it hard enough to bend the bolt. Give that top nut a shot of PB blaster, silicon, something to help it turn past the buggered up threads. Keeping leverage on the bolt with the box end you may find that you can turn the other nut by hand. Once you get the top nut freed you can remove the box end and the other nut and then work the original nut off. To put things back in place you will reverse this process. Do not continue to do more damage to the threads! Tolerances on common hardware are pretty loose so when you replace the nut try to use one that is looser...test it on a bolt with the same thread pitch before you try to install it. If you repair the threads well enough you should be able to hand start the new nut and washer and work it up into place before repeating the thing with the box end with another nut on the bottom of the bolt and more pressure to hold it in place. Once the lock washer starts to collapse it should allow you to get the bolt tight.

patandjeff

 blind carriage bolts, we have had success in the past by grinding or filing 2 flats on the end of the bolt and I holding  with open-end wrench, instead of cutting a slot for a screwdriver

tabiphile

jkjenn said:

 Tundra57 said:.

Unfortunately some workers have no pride in their work or are pushed due to higher production pressure (which is what I think is happening). You should always check yourself as much as you can and if you can't as an able friend to come along. Little stuff just deal with it yourself but always let Nucamp know.

It is not ways that cut and dry. Even high quality workers can get distracted by personal or work related stress, or just ha e a bad day and make mistakes. You also could have learning curve related issues.

Doing quality work and intending to do quality work and having a quality system in place to insure that the work that is done is quality work are not the same thing really. A quality system accepts the limitations of human performance and builds process and verification around preventative measures. It's been proven that you cannot inspect quality into a product but it is a fact that you can guarantee quality with a well designed product, process and properly trained personnel. Good intent is not an adequate measure. And again, there are two very distinct metrics that require management...out of box quality...defects from the manufacturing process...and warranty failures...items that fail in the field. So, as an example, using incorrect hardware is an out of box failure. It was not assembled correctly at the factory. Corrective steps in a typical production process might include standardizing hardware and removing any incorrect hardware from the workstation. It might include training and a build checklist. It might include a verification process etc. You would measure and report on defects and cause per station/process step. That's factory build related. A warranty item might be a steady stream of water pumps failing after use. They work from the factory but then fail. Root cause analysis would tell you that it's due to plastic chips in the filters, whatever. Once root cause is known then corrective actions are taken to prevent recurrence. A company can have poor OBQ and significant warranty concerns but a great customer service reputation if they quickly address and resolve issues as they come up. That should not be mistaken for having great quality. Great quality cannot be measured with good intent. It's low OBQ and warranty events. 

jkjenn

Mandy Lea briefly shows us part of the QA area at nüCamp as a part of her factory tour. I know there is more to it than what she shows, because there is the spray room to test for leaks. 

https://youtu.be/W_7Bzb1DegA

BrianZ

@idletab, I would not let this minor issue prevent you from enjoying camping; but when you get a chance to deal with it, try wrapping a small piece of cotton rag around the bolt to protect threads, then clamp on a small pair of vice grips to hold it while using a wrench on the nut.  This should minimize damage to threads.