Alde above 3000ft temp fix

DurangoTaB

Kudos to Scott and PV for staying on this!

Good Morning John…

I wanted to touch base with you regarding the altitude issue on the ALDE in the T@B.  Below is the email I just received from the President of North American Operations.  

The only real interim solution is to adjust the regulator down to about 8 inches of water column. If they want a more permanent solution it is to install a bypass by the heater with another regulator inline. We are going through the certification process for the Compact 3020 which has a high altitude mode but this will take some time.  It should be available next year.

Essentially, while not ideal, some modification will remedy the issue.

I will ask for details for those wishing to engage in this.

Have a good day.

Thanks,

 

ChanW

Count me as one interested in in engaging in this modification...

Is the 'Above 3000ft' a typo? I thought the problem was more like 'above 7000ft'.

DurangoTaB

Chan...the "above 3,000ft" is not a typo, it's from an ALDE engineering perspective.  I believe the more noticeable symptoms by users have been above 7,000ft.   I have a long string of memo's from Scott Hubble, his staff, and ALDE U.S. confirming. 

Just stopped by our (only) RV dealer...they won't touch adjusting a propane pressure reducing valve, saying it's federally controlled and a liability issue.  Maybe a gas plumber?

Nomad

Anyone that installs gas operated appliances - furnaces, hot water heaters, dryers, etc - would be licensed.

Tabaz

Count me in as well.  Thanks for taking the lead on this Durango.

ColoradoJon

I would be interested in this.  Mine didn't make any noise at the dealer in Colorado Springs but up in the mountains at 9000 ft. it made a soft rumble, like those AC/heating units in hotel rooms.

jkjenn

I had a slight rumble above 9,000' but none above 8,000'.

Mr_Mrs_Gnome

We had a little rumble at 8800 ft. I was sleeping over the Alde and thought it was a some thunder. Actually kinda liked it. This is an interesting conversation because in the previous one (http://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/3030/alde-freight-train/p1) there was discussion of increasing the propane regulator from 11 to 13 wc (water column) and now they are saying to adjust down to 8. If we have any trouble, we may look at the bypass option rather than adjust the main regulator and possibly mess up the fridge and burners. Might be easier to install a step-down regulator just before the Alde propane inlet. Any thoughts??

DurangoTaB

I've asked what the implications are to the stove and the Norcold before reducing from 11 to 8 W.C., Scott is checking...since those of us in CO are always above 3000ft., I like you're idea for dropping the pressure just before the ALDE.

Mr_Mrs_Gnome

Since most regulators regulate from the high pressure tank to 11 WC, I wonder what would be needed to regulate from 11 to 8. Wouldn't think it would be the same type of regulator. Any engineers in the crowd?

DurangoTaB

From the comments of an RV repair/maintenance guy, it sounds like no problem to adjust, as long as you have a low-pressure manometer and a few tools.  I'm guessing the adjustment screw is behind the black cover on the regulator.  I would not attempt this on my own (and I am a retired engineer)...too many consequences of too low or too high a gas pressure...

MuttonChops

Alde 3020 available in U.S.

Dealer pasted on this bit of news from nuCamp.

Starting with December-2017 builds TAB's will be getting the Alde model 3020.

Alde 3020 has been available in Europe for a few years.  One of it's features (as noted above) is a propane High Altitude operation mode.

Future owners will be saved the 'freight train' or having to do the regulator modification.

Verna

@DurangoTaB — see above! 

DurangoTaB

I’ve known about the 3020 for a while, and it’s part of my negotiations and possible/probable path forward for solving my problem(s)!  I hadn’t seen an official announcement though...Thanks!

Pancho_n_Lefty

DurangoTaB said:

I’ve known about the 3020 for a while, and it’s part of my negotiations and possible/probable path forward for solving my problem(s)!  I hadn’t seen an official announcement though...Thanks!

There is a valve that Alde makes for high altitude operation for 3010 & 3020 compact models, we posted a link to it in the "Alde freight train" thread.

Here's another: http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_4115-101_instruct.pdf

Pancho_n_Lefty

DurangoTaB said:

I’ve known about the 3020 for a while, and it’s part of my negotiations and possible/probable path forward for solving my problem(s)!  I hadn’t seen an official announcement though...Thanks!

There is a "high altitude switch" that Alde makes for the 3010 & 3020 compact models, we just posted a link to it in the "Alde freight train" thread.  I'm guessing this is a manual version of what the 3020 may control with the touch of a button.

We're currently trying to figure out how to get one stateside, (waiting on an e-mail from Alde at the moment).  This product paper in the link below has a date stamp of 2015 on it.  Odd it hasn't come up before on this site or from Nucamp.  

It's a much more elegant solution that can be installed in the boiler specific supply line (inside the camper) and can be switched between high and low altitude modes (position 1 or 2).
  
Per a pipefitter we happen to know; this is how the air/fuel mixture should be changed to avoid running rich or lean (at high or low altitude) which may cause premature boiler issues.

We just got our outback in January (2018) and love it, but the freight train was loud at 8,500' (per gps) at Rocky Mountain National Park last week.

Here's the link to the part:

 
Alde High Altitude Switch 4115 101
http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_4115-101_instruct.pdf 

DurangoTaB

Hmmm...gotta check that out with Alde U.S.!

MuttonChops

Pancho_n_Lefty said:

We just got our outback in January (2018) and love it, but the freight train was loud at 8,500' (per gps) at Rocky Mountain National Park last week.

Pancho_n_Lefty,

Please clarify does your Outback have the Alde 3010 model?
That is your T@B build date was prior to December-2017 the date NuCamp has said they switched to Alde 3020 model.

jkjenn

Pancho_n_Lefty said:

DurangoTaB said:

I’ve known about the 3020 for a while, and it’s part of my negotiations and possible/probable path forward for solving my problem(s)!  I hadn’t seen an official announcement though...Thanks!

There is a "high altitude switch" that Alde makes for the 3010 & 3020 compact models, we just posted a link to it in the "Alde freight train" thread.  I'm guessing this is a manual version of what the 3020 may control with the touch of a button.

We're currently trying to figure out how to get one stateside, (waiting on an e-mail from Alde at the moment).  This product paper in the link below has a date stamp of 2015 on it.  Odd it hasn't come up before on this site or from Nucamp.  

It's a much more elegant solution that can be installed in the boiler specific supply line (inside the camper) and can be switched between high and low altitude modes (position 1 or 2).
  
Per a pipefitter we happen to know; this is how the air/fuel mixture should be changed to avoid running rich or lean (at high or low altitude) which may cause premature boiler issues.

We just got our outback in January (2018) and love it, but the freight train was loud at 8,500' (per gps) at Rocky Mountain National Park last week.

Here's the link to the part:

 
Alde High Altitude Switch 4115 101
http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_4115-101_instruct.pdf 

That is a far better solution and the first we have seen it. Can someone forward it to the factory? ( @DurangoTaB @Verna @Michigan_Mike )?

Verna

What nüCamp has discovered in the past is that the Federal Government (please, no political statements) must approve any such devices. This is a long and tedious wait for those who want it.  It took over two years to get approval for the 3020 Alde, so nüCamp came up with their own stateside fix as a workaround in the meantime. 

So, just because this part is available across the large pond does not mean that it can be imported into the United States. 

jkjenn

Great info - thanks @Verna.

Pancho_n_Lefty

MuttonChops said:

Pancho_n_Lefty,

Please clarify does your Outback have the Alde 3010 model?
That is your T@B build date was prior to December-2017 the date NuCamp has said they switched to Alde 3020 model.

Our Outback has the 3010 model, was built before December last year.

Verna said:

What nüCamp has discovered in the past is that the Federal Government (please, no political statements) must approve any such devices. This is a long and tedious wait for those who want it.  It took over two years to get approval for the 3020 Alde, so nüCamp came up with their own stateside fix as a workaround in the meantime. 

So, just because this part is available across the large pond does not mean that it can be imported into the United States. 

This is true, and we may have an answer soon regarding availability as we have been trying to get word from Alde on the availability stateside. (we just sent the email yesterday). 

With that said, this is a simple valve and should we be able to determine the specifications from the manufacturer, there is a high possibility there is a comparable part already stateside.

Pancho_n_Lefty

We just got off the phone with Alde USA.  The 3020 high altitude mode increases the combustion fan speed to compensate for less air at high altitude.  (it has no valve like the one shown above.)

Verna is right: Alde USA was trying to get ahold of this part for the initial fix, but it is not licensed for resale here.

Alde USA did state that if you can find a distributor that sells it elsewhere (i.e. Great Britain) and will ship it to you, it can be purchased that way.

That is what we are going to try and do.  We'll see what happens.  I guess we can look up the patent for the specs if it comes down to it... or just do the nuCamp fix.

Cheers!

TabberJohn

Instructions for that EU part mention --
"When the Alde Compact heater is powered by LPG at high altitude, use Propane to obtain stable combustion."
Are butane or other forms of LPG marketed for use with RVs in the EU?
I can see using it for a camp stove but didn't realize the Alde could run on butane.

sqrpeg

Our 2018 Boondock was built in October 2017, so we just missed the 3020 upgrade

Since this is a well-known problem, and the trailer was purchased from a dealer here in Colorado, I had mistakenly assumed that the regulator workaround would be pre-installed, but no joy there either.

So, I'm very interested in learning if there's a better alternative to the fix kit currently offered by nuCamp.  @Pancho_n_Lefty, thank you for investigating this and please do keep us apprised of your progress.

EDIT: I should have added - if there are any leads that you'd like help with pursuing, please let me know.

DurangoTaB

As far as I know, there’s no alternative...and I’ve been dealing with it for 18months.

Pancho_n_Lefty

TabberJohn said:

Instructions for that EU part mention --
"When the Alde Compact heater is powered by LPG at high altitude, use Propane to obtain stable combustion."
Are butane or other forms of LPG marketed for use with RVs in the EU?
I can see using it for a camp stove but didn't realize the Alde could run on butane.

Dunno, about any of this to be  honest.

sqrpeg said:

Our 2018 Boondock was built in October 2017, so we just missed the 3020 upgrade

Since this is a well-known problem, and the trailer was purchased from a dealer here in Colorado, I had mistakenly assumed that the regulator workaround would be pre-installed, but no joy there either.

So, I'm very interested in learning if there's a better alternative to the fix kit currently offered by nuCamp.  @Pancho_n_Lefty, thank you for investigating this and please do keep us apprised of your progress.

EDIT: I should have added - if there are any leads that you'd like help with pursuing, please let me know.

We were hoping the same thing, but have found no matter how much money or how nice something is... there are always little things like this that pop up.  Still happy with our camper .

We just ordered the Alde High Altitude Switch, Part # 4115 101http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_4115-101_instruct.pdf from England for £88.56 with £26.39 shipping cost to the Denver area here in Colorado.  Total cost equaled £114.95 or $164.77 (via Paypal).  We have a pipefitter acquaintance (person who is certified, bonded and insured & works on boilers for a living) so we don't mess up the install.

Despite the substantially higher cost of implementation, we prefer this fix as it may be done inside the camper where we can reach it easily, allows us to switch to low altitude mode when we're outside of Colorado, and was the first choice for Alde USA when investigating a solution. (was unable to be implemented due to the part not being certified for resale in the USA).

DurangoTaB said:

As far as I know, there’s no alternative...and I’ve been dealing with it for 18months.

Another option would be to install the nuCamp fix, but with a three way valve between the nuCamp supplied regulator & the Propane source. 

The reason for this would be to bypass the "freight train fix" regulator when below 3,280' as recommended by Alde.  Essentially working as a switch for operation above and below 3,280'.

This would keep the Alde from running lean (hot) under 3,280' (happen with freight train fix installed) or running too rich above 3,280'.

I can't really blame NuCamp as the majority of the USA lives below 3,280', and the "freight train" wasn't noticeable in Denver (5,280').  It wasn't until we camped at 8,500' that it became an issue... but we plan on camping at that altitude a lot.

Hope this helps!

P.S.
If you search online for Alde 4115 101 you can purchase one from overseas.  If you have trouble you can PM us for the site we used.  Note: we haven't taken delivery yet so can't comment on service/reliability of the unstated website.

Getting ready to go T@bbing and skiing today for the rest of the weekend! 

atlasb

If NU CAMP is installing the valve with the new 3020's, maybe we can get the valve from Elsie in NU CAMP Parts.  Would also want to order the short hose that goes from the valve to the Alde.  

atlasb

Has anyone come up with a copy of the 3020 owners manual yet.  Could not find it on the US Alde web site but the did list the 3020.  Would like to see a copy of the spec sheet on the new 3020 to see what is different with it.  They do show an additional tank that they install with the 3020 to give you "indefinite hot water supply".

Pancho_n_Lefty

atlasb said:

If NU CAMP is installing the valve with the new 3020's, maybe we can get the valve from Elsie in NU CAMP Parts [. . .] 

There's no "high altitude switch" or valve in the 3020.  It's solution to running rich at altitude is a variable speed combustion fan that increases in speed to supply more air to the boiler when above 1,000m (3,280') when high altitude mode is enabled via the control panel.

This increases airflow instead of reducing propane flow.  Same end result, different means.

atlasb said:

Has anyone come up with a copy of the 3020 owners manual yet [. . .]

 UK version of the Alde 3020 owners manual:  http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_3020_user.pdf

MuttonChops

@atlasb

I've found two versions of the English language (British) 3020 manual. One is the link @Pancho_n_Lefty provided. Those operation manuals do not include unit specifications.

Also found a two page British Sales flyer that has the Specifications listed below.

Side Note:

   Those two manuals only explain how to turn-on High Altitude Mode. They do not include the 'how it works' information - - - per Pancho_n_Lefty higher fan speed.

   Would be nice to know how the higher fan speed impacts 12 VDC current consumption.