380 Watt Solar Panels and Lithium Upgrade on T@B 360

Trailpixie · March 8

I am preparing for my first spring outing with my Black Canyon T@B 360. The solar system remains a bit of a mystery to me. Sitting in my driveway here in Maryland the solar panels aren't keeping the system topped up to 100%. The only way to stay charged is the shore power. My previous T@320 with 200 watts solar and 300ah of AGM batteries was easily kept charged in winter without shore power. I had that for five years. My new camper is sitting on the north side of my house so it doesn't have direct sun, but it does have full exposure to the sky. This should bring in more than the 15-88 watts that the system says it is providing.

The dealer has told me that because the lithium system needs to run the battery heater, the solar panels can't keep it charged. To me, this means that the lithium upgrade makes the T@B 360 less effective as a camper for the cooler shoulder season because the solar system can't keep up with the battery heater.

What am I missing? Is there something wrong. I do have experience with solar panels and with T@Bs, so I don't think I am crazy, BUT I haven't worked with lithium.

RTWCTS · March 8

@Trailpixie, unless you are experiencing extreme cold you shouldn't need to run the battery heaters to charge your batteries. Just how cold is it in Maryland? My 400 has a switch to turn the heaters on and off. Assuming the battery switch is off too, I wouldn't think you'd even need to recharge sitting there dormant.

Edit to add: You'd only need to use the heaters when trying to charge below freezing. The internal electronics should shut down an keep the battery from charging if the temp is too low. At that point you'd turn on the heaters.

Trailpixie · March 9

what state should I leave it in when it is parked?

pthomas745 · March 9

The battery heaters in the newer trailers with the Battleborns use 1.8 amps per battery when they are running. Your solar panel should easily replace that amount of power. (Well...maybe not overnight...so check to see if your heaters are running!)

The point of a battery heater gets sort of lost in the shuffle when lithium batteries and cold weather get mentioned. If a lithium battery....the cells...inside the battery case.....reach a temperature below freezing, attempting to charge them will permanently damage the battery. (Not the air temperature...the temperature inside the battery). Many lithium batteries have a "low temperature charging protection" circuit (inside the battery attached to the battery management system) that will cut off any charging going to the battery when the inside the battery is less than 32F. Even with the charging cut off, the battery can be used to provide power.

The trick with the way the battery heaters are wired in the earlier versions of the Tabs with these heated batteries is: the heater switch is wired directly to the battery.......and the battery switch has no bearing on whether the heaters work or not. Since the heaters are connected directly to the battery, Battleborn points out in the literature on these that if you have a Victron Shunt, the amp hours used by the battery heaters are NOT counted by the shunt.

Sounds like this another episode of "Funny Things Dealers Make Up On The Spot".

When you say your "lithium batteries are not showing 100 percent?" Can you show us your Victron app status page? Have you looked closely at your Battery settings page and made sure you are set up to charge lithium batteries with the solar? (We have seen many many trailers from the dealer incorrectly set up).

Since the 360 is new, anything you can show us about the battery setup will be useful. You may have a different model of battery or a different wiring setup for the heaters. This is a thread from a couple of years ago that discusses the battery wiring and the wiring for the heaters to the battery heater switch. It would be really good to know if this setup is different in the 360.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/17546/on-a-2023tab-400-what-is-the-small-red-wire-coming-off-the-positive-battery-terminal

RTWCTS · March 9

Trailpixie said:

what state should I leave it in when it is parked?

We are in Virginia, a few hours south of you. During the winter I run my batteries down to about 50% for storage, turn everything (battery heaters and main power switch) off and put our All-Pro cover on which keeps the solar from recharging the batteries. From what I've gathered, the lithium batteries are more cold hardy than the AGM. In camping season, I let the solar keep the batteries topped off but have the power switch off (as I'm sure you've always done).
Hope that I answered your question...

Trailpixie · March 11

Here are some pics of how my T@B 360 Black Canyon with lithium upgrade is

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/ya/7lfrh3ala9hm.jpeg

Yoshi_TAB · March 11

Hi @Trailpixie , A few question...Is that an OEM from factory set up or did you install yourself? Can you take a picture of the battery compartment (showing wires). Assume the largest red wire exiting to the right goes to the battery. Is that correct? Where do the two other red wires, that look like they are attached to a fuse block go? What size is the fuse? Which compartment is the multiplus located in? TY

EasternJL · March 14

This is great-- and hopefully we'll all get to see where everything is with a lithium upgraded 360. As others have said, if you can provide more photos-- wider shots, and some shots of where the batteries are located (as we've been told they are under the trailer), that would be very helpful- since none of us have seen this yet. @Yoshi_TAB it would appear that the multiplus is in that one open compartment under the driver side bed-- but hopefully @Trailpixie can confirm.

Trailpixie · March 14

I haven't yet opened up any more compartments besides the alde and inverter areas. I'll get braver soon.

I want to figure out how to install one of these. I hate need ing to check my phone to do everything. I also want to put a physical control for operating the inverter.

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors/bmv-702

one thing I have discovered is that when the inverters is on, there is an exhaust fan that comes on and is quite noisy. For the shore power to work, it appears that this fan might need to be on. I will need to do something about this.

Yoshi_TAB · March 15

Trailpixie said:

I want to figure out how to install one of these. I hate need ing to check my phone to do everything. I also want to put a physical control for operating the inverter.

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors/bmv-702

one thing I have discovered is that when the inverters is on, there is an exhaust fan that comes on and is quite noisy. For the shore power to work, it appears that this fan might need to be on. I will need to do something about this.

Hi, To install the BMV-702 (I don't have one), but it looks pretty easy. You would just need to attach a thin RJ type cable between your shunt and the display. The hardest part would probably be figuring out how to cleanly route the cable to the location you want the display and of course mounting the display.

Inverters can generate quite a bit of heat, hence the need for the fan. It looks like NuCamp also installed a small standalone fan in the compartment. I also installed a small computer fan near my inverter to move warm air away. Unfortunately, even small fans can be noisy. If you are not using the inverter, you can turn it off. Although the fan may also be for the battery charging system of the multiplus.

Looking forward to any additional pictures you can supply.

mtholler · March 16

If you have the lithium upgrade on the tab 360, there is one large 270 ah battery installed under the trailer. You would have to crawl under the trailer and remove the belly panel to access it. And instead of the battery heaters with an on off switch, this battery has internal heat. I believe it turns itself on and off based on temperature.

mtholler · March 16

I have also heard others say that the installed solar panels can sometimes perform poorly unless they are in direct full sun and many people add additional solar suitcase type panels that can be moved around, to increase solar charging.

EasternJL · March 16

@mtholler I heard this same thing from Nucamp (about the battery location). They didn't mention the internal heat, but that's interesting. I just looked at the heated 270ah battery on the Battleborn site (very $$$$). I suppose for most folks, having the battery in an almost inaccessible location isn't a big issue. No need to get to it unless you are replacing it. For me, it's hard to imagine having it tucked away like that. I'd love to see it if the OP or anyone else with this setup is willing to get under there and take some photos. I still think it's odd that Nucamp has backed themselves into a corner with 3 different (and "unusual") battery locations for the various versions of the 360.

At this point, I'd opt to add my own additional batteries and inverter and tuck them under the driver's side bed.

mtholler · March 16

@EasternJL I agree. I live in a very cold climate and bring my current battery inside for winter. Battleborn also says to bring it inside if it will get below -15 F. There are also times when troubleshooting with a multimeter is necessary. So having it underneath is a deal breaker for me.

pthomas745 · March 16

@mtholler the entire Tab Forum is breathlessly awaiting photos of the workings of the 360..that battery space under the trailer, the drains, etc. We have seen all the pretty pictures of the interior (and they are nice) but we really need to see the "nuts and bolts".

EasternJL · March 18

I asked Nucamp for some wiring info (diagram) and photos of the 360 with the Lithium package, but they don't have one on the production line currently. I guess there aren't sharable wiring diagrams either.

phxhry · March 19

I am very new to the tab community and just recently bought our first Tab360, black canyon with lithium which seems to be the same set up you have. We are trying to figure out the batteries and how everything works. The only advise I can give is in the VE.Bus Smart device, right now yours says "Inverting" which if you aren't using any of the 120 outlets you don't need. Change this to "Charge" and it will save you a little bit of battery. Also, in this same device, you when you plug in to your home shore power, if your home is 15 Amps be sure to update the AC input to 14.5 or 15. When plugged into 30 amp outlet you can bring it back up to 25 Amps.

Regarding the location of the battery, I believe it is under the passenger bed compartment. I will have to open it up and double check but I believe we saw that in our walk through.

EasternJL · March 20

@phxhry Good tip on the inverter. We learned that lesson on our 320. From what we're hearing from Nucamp, if you have just a lithium battery and not the lithium battery package, your battery will indeed be back under the passenger side bed. But, if you have the full lithium package, the upgraded 270ah battery should be located under the camper in some hidden location (you have to remove a panel to see it apparently). Of course, none of us have seen this yet, so it's tough to verify. We'd love to see photos if you do indeed have the full lithium package and the upgraded battery.

Trailpixie · March 24

I haven't gotten down under the camper to take the panel off and take any pics, but I have gathered some data. As you know, the solar panels are 380 watts combined. I'm not a fan of the long thin format running front to back with195 watts each. That means each of them are compromised by the performance of the side away from the sun. More, smaller panels could have been configured for better performance in a wider variety of conditions. Here is a picture of their performance yesterday.

Super-bright sunny day in late March at around 12:00 or 1:00. The 380 watt panels made 207 watts.

Just two-hours before at a partly sunny 10:00 they were seeing only 4 watts. Terrible!!

The Lithium package has the Battlebornmodel BBGC3H 270AH Lithium Battery. With this marginal performance, I am not sure that I would be able to recharge the battery after a night of heavy use.

My critique isn't without experience. I had 200 watts of solar on my TAB 320. Two were in series and two and parallel. They sat on top of the camper and were paired diagonally. They were great from morning to evening.

The most significant difference is the amount of power I have. I had 450 AH of AGM batteries and comparing recharging of AGM to recharging of lithium is probably unfair. the battleborn claim a depth of discharge of 100% (whatever that means). AGM batteries probably had less than half that 450AH available to them.

EasternJL · March 24

Have you tried driving in a circle to get better performance out of those panels?

This may have been mentioned in a previous thread-- and you may already know all this as 320 owners-- but you can save some battery power by turning that inverter off (set it to charge only) when you don't need it (which is probably most of the time).

donmontalvo · March 25

EasternJL said:

Have you tried driving in a circle to get better performance out of those panels? This may have been mentioned in a previous thread-- and you may already know all this as 320 owners-- but you can save some battery power by turning that inverter off (set it to charge only) when you don't need it (which is probably most of the time).

That's assuming your inverter has charging capability. I upgraded my 2024 320S myself since I didn't need the MultiPlus stuff that was offered. Separate inverter, using an on/off switch that also turns on exhaust fans in the compartment it is installed in.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/qr/yotgmbu89xgl.png

Trailpixie · March 25

I think a 50 or 100 watt flexible panel added in parallel in the center of the top would be a great addition, but I don't have any idea how I would get the wires down to the system in a reasonably neat way.

donmontalvo · March 28

Trailpixie said:

I think a 50 or 100 watt flexible panel added in parallel in the center of the top would be a great addition, but I don't have any idea how I would get the wires down to the system in a reasonably neat way.

I left my 2024 320S roof as is, with 2x190 solar panels from the factory. I hang a 100W flexible panel from the rear aluminum bars. I wanted to go with a 200W but it would have covered my brake lights. I connect it through the SAE port in the Nautilus compartment, and from there it connects to a second 100/30 MPPT charger. This way I can increase to 440W in the future. I took the advice of a forum expert, I replaced the SAE port wire from 12awg to 10awg, so solar is all 10awg. Fuses for safety, and circuit breakers for quick disconnects when needed.

donmontalvo · March 28

EasternJL said:

Have you tried driving in a circle to get better performance out of those panels? This may have been mentioned in a previous thread-- and you may already know all this as 320 owners-- but you can save some battery power by turning that inverter off (set it to charge only) when you don't need it (which is probably most of the time).

BTW, I was quite the vocal critic when criticism went around about the 380W curved solar panels that come on the latest 320S. On sunny days only a portion of the solar panel makes power...common sense. So my flat 100W on a sunny day creates several times as much power as the curved solar panels. On an overcast day, the curved solar panels beat the flat solar panels. This is why I wouldn't mount a curved panel...instead keep a folding solar panel handy.

EasternJL · March 28

Yeah-- on our 320, we didn't great solar input either (occassionally over 80% on a sunny day (mid day)). My guess is that they are not shooting for full input from those panels-- just a bit of input over a range of panel positions. Basically, you get at least something at various times of day and in various positions- but never 100%. The shape of the TAB just doesn't allow for great input regardless of placement. If we end up with another Tab (and it's iffy at the moment), and we plan to boonedock more, we'll get something portable and foldable too. And I think winning the battle with battery capacity will be more my focus. And we have a propane generator if we really need it.

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380 Watt Solar Panels and Lithium Upgrade on T@B 360

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