First Trip with New 2016 T@B S MAX (Modified)

jctangney · March 2016

Our T@B arrived at our dealer on March 5th, and we actually got it on the 12th. Just in time for a trip on the 14th to the 16th up North of Seattle (we live near Portland, OR). We ordered our Blue on Silver T@B S Max without the TV/Stereo etc., but with additional outlets, an access door to under seat storage, the Outback platform, dual 10 lb. propane tanks instead of the 20 lb. one, and brackets for dual batteries. I have since bolted a lockable RIDGED toolbox on one side of the front platform (for clean stuff and tools), and a RIDGED 22 inch box on the other side (for the dark side - Rhinoflex etc. hoses). I have dual size 24 batteries (would have preferred larger, but that is what fit the brackets the factory provided, and will likely be plenty for us as most non-hookup stays will be for just 2-3 nights with 4 nights fairly rare).

Our shakedown trip at Wenberg County Park (used to be a state park) went well for the most part, but have a couple of questions! Note that the first night was pouring rain and both nights were in the upper 30's to low 40's.

The first night we ran the Alde on Propane and seemed to have plenty of heat. That first morning we had decided we would use the campground showers. The second night, I thought that since we had 30 amp electric available, I would run the Alde on that. That did not go well! Note that we were also trying to have it heat the water as we were going to try the shower in the T@B in the morning. I had the water heat all the way up (+2, solid black triangle) with both lightning bolts. even trying to set the temp up to 80 degrees, it did not appear to heat the trailer at all! I finally switched back to propane and was able to get heat.

So, can you get heat in the trailer and heat the water at the same time when using 110? At this point we are planning on bringing a small electric heater for when we have shore power, but would still like to understand the tradeoffs of heating water for the shower and heating the trailer with either 110 electricity or propane!

I have also seen references to an "A/C vent cover" here in the forum and will try to contact Elsie at PV about it tomorrow as on our first night we did have a wet area below the A/C and wonder if rain might have blow in via the vent during the night, or as we drove through heavy rain. The next night we had some rain, but nothing like on the drive up or on the first night, and the area stayed dry. Even ignoring rain, an A/C vent cover should help with heating the trailer on cold nights.

Have a bigger trip to California planned for next month with friends who have a larger trailer. In the meanwhile we will be adding hooks in various places and refining what we take and leave home based on this first test!

We have towed various trailers in the past, from my in-laws 1958 13' Oasis, to a 24 foot Komfort when our kids were young, and then a popup tent trailer that was very nice, except here in the NW. If you had to set it up or take it down in the rain (not uncommon), you were bound to get part of the mattress wet! Now after our first test with our T@B, I am sure we are going to like it!!!

John

Nomad · March 2016

Can't answer why you weren't getting heat / hot water on 110ac as you should - I would check fuses both in the converter box cover and on the Alde. Were you using a surge protector when hooked to capground power?

jctangney · March 2016

I have not checked fuses yet. I did not use a surge protector as I was assured by Chris Baum of Little Guy Trailers that a built in surge protector is now standard.

JiroTX · March 2016

I just installed the digital thermostat on my 2015 Outback due to some issues with the analog one. I believe it stops the heat when you set hot water temp settings to high (solid black triangle) to heat up the water to 70C (50C with low) for 30 mins or so. I saw it somewhere on YouTube. If you want both heat and water heater running, you need to set the water heater to "low."

Thanks,

Jiro

mickietucs · March 2016

jctangney said:

I have also seen references to an "A/C vent cover" here in the forum and will try to contact Elsie at PV about it tomorrow as on our first night we did have a wet area below the A/C and wonder if rain might have blow in via the vent during the night, or as we drove through heavy rain. The next night we had some rain, but nothing like on the drive up or on the first night, and the area stayed dry. Even ignoring rain, an A/C vent cover should help with heating the trailer on cold nights.

Would you post what you find out about a vent cover? I know there were some references to ones but I thought they were for the a/c's that are on older models (down by the floor) - perhaps that cover fits/works on all a/c's. Anyway, I'm interested as I'll be spending some time in the PNW this summer (family in Portland!) and know I'll hit rain unlike our sunny AZ area! Thanks.

Tabaz · March 2016

Vent Cover - It is a thick white vinyl piece with six (four?) snaps (four on each end and two in the middle). The female ends of the snaps are on the vinyl. The male ends are on the end of self-tapping screws that must be drilled into the metal vent cover. The screws appear long enough to penetrate the metal vent cover and sidewall of the T@B. Because you can not get to the screws from outside the vent cover to seal them with caulk, I decided to return the cover to LG. However, PitPat has it on her T@B and likes it (I recall it may have been added at the factory). Someone on this forum made one out of plastic sheeting that looked "factory."

DeeDee · March 2016

jctangney said:

I have not checked fuses yet. I did not use a surge protector as I was assured by Chris Baum of Little Guy Trailers that a built in surge protector is now standard.
I had also heard that integrated surge protectors would be standard on the new units. Can anyone confirm?

Nomad · March 2016

OutbackAZ - Sabel was the one that did the homemade AC cover. Saw it at the Arches, looked real nice.

jctangney · March 2016

Jiro, do you have a link to that YouTube that says full heat to the water heater shuts down space heating for 30 minutes? I will look for it as well as checking the manual, it is in the trailer. We store it in my daughter's garage as it is 8 feet high while ours is only 7 feet. I will also check fuses today. It was much longer than 30 minutes that we were not getting heat.

If left on the lower heat level, does that heat the water enough for two "quick" showers? If so, about how long would that take?

As for the A/C cover, I have not yet contacted Elsie, so I will report once I have done that.

John

Photomom · March 2016

jctangney said:

I did not use a surge protector as I was assured by Chris Baum of Little Guy Trailers that a built in surge protector is now standard.

Wow, that would be nice if true!

jkjenn · March 2016

Photomom said:

jctangney said:

I did not use a surge protector as I was assured by Chris Baum of Little Guy Trailers that a built in surge protector is now standard.

Wow, that would be nice if true!

That would be nice. Good for them!

ChanW · March 2016

John, when you set your controller for heating the water, did you also have it on for the "room heat"? ie: There are two settings, one selects only hot water, and the other setting selects hot water plus room heat.

Also, per the Alde manual, having the Alde on electric plus propane will heat more quickly.

If your Alde is working at all, you need not check the fuses.

I'm able to get a nice long (5-10 minute) shower (with full hookups).

jctangney said:

Jiro, do you have a link to that YouTube that says full heat to the water heater shuts down space heating for 30 minutes? I will look for it as well as checking the manual, it is in the trailer. We store it in my daughter's garage as it is 8 feet high while ours is only 7 feet. I will also check fuses today. It was much longer than 30 minutes that we were not getting heat.
If left on the lower heat level, does that heat the water enough for two "quick" showers? If so, about how long would that take?
As for the A/C cover, I have not yet contacted Elsie, so I will report once I have done that.
John

Nomad · March 2016

ChanW > if Alde working at all, don't need to check fuses < - Wasn't there a thread/comment where one of the fuses could be blown and it only affected either heat or water (can't recall which)? - I have that thought stuck in my head.

jctangney · March 2016

First, I talked to Elsie and ordered an A/C vent cover. With shipping it will be around $35. I also asked if she could confirm that T@Bs now have a surge protector as standard. She wasn't sure but said she would check and get back to me.

For Chan above, yes, on propane it seemed to work fine! I did check the inline fuse under the driver's side cushion as well as the blade fuse in the converter. Both were good. I did not look for more back at the Alde itself as I would need to move a lot of stuff! So, not sure if it is worth checking further fuses as both space heat and hot water appear to work on propane. I did find a YouTube video that said that directing full heat to hot water would disable space heating for 30 minutes. Perhaps that is what we were experiencing, though it seemed much longer. In any case, a small portable electric heater will take care of heat when we have 110.

Were those long showers with the hot water on the mid setting?

John

JiroTX · March 2016

jctangney,

Glad that you found the video. When I was using the analog thermostat, I usually had it on both 110v and propane for showers. It usually starts with super hot, then the temperature drops a little. I had to adjust it the temp in the shower a little but never got on the cold side. I think Alde kind of works as an instant water heater with both 110 and propane. I do not keep the water running when I wash myself.
I'll test my new digital thermostat this weekend at Big Bend since it's going to be cold, but I won't be able to test it for shower in the cold weather until next year since they don't have hookups... It's also getting hot here already...

Jiro

jctangney · March 2016

Jiro, what I was wondering for your showers was whether you had the Alde set for maximum hot water heating, or if it was in the middle setting so room heating "should" also work?

For anyone, once you arrive in camp, how long does it take to heat the water if you want to take a shower that evening, and what settings do you use? I am assuming in those cases I will use propane + 110 if available.

John

JiroTX · March 2016

John, the old analog version did not have hot water temp setting. It was either off, water+heat, or water only.

Verna · March 2016

On my digital thermostat, I have it set for 2 lightning bolts, medium on "shower", and I am on propane this week (dry camping). I always have hot water within 30 minutes of turning the propane on. I have a 2014 with no mixer.

jctangney · March 2016

Thanks Jiro and Verna! It looks like what I see as medium on the Hot Water indicator is likely the same as the "water+heat" on the older manual control. If that setting, with propane, provides enough hot water for a shower (or two?) within 30 minutes, that sounds fine. Still not sure how long it would take to heat water on 110 only for a couple of quick showers, assuming we use a separate electric heater for heating the air. I assume if we need it quick, then propane is the way to go, but perhaps if left on 110 only the even on that medium setting, it should be fine by morning.

John

ChanW · March 2016

John, when I said long shower, the electric was set on '3 lightning bolts', but I additionally had the propane boosting it.

Also, I thought I saw in the Alde docs that it took 30min to hot water, but that would depend on the water temp, I'd think.

PXL, re the fuses...

The 12v fuse we see in the converter/fusebox protects any/all of the 12v that the Alde uses - ie: circulating pump, circuit board, etc.
The two fuses in the Alde itself are 12v, one is on the 12v positive leg and the other is on the 12v negative leg. This is redundant, and also protects the 12v supply for the Alde.
The other electrical aspect to the Alde is the 110v submersion heater coil. That's protected by the 110v side of the converter box, using a breaker.

Nomad · March 2016

Thanks for the clarification.

jctangney · March 2016

Of the two fuses I checked, one I found in the area behind the converter box. It is a small inline fuse and was good. Is this one associated with the Alde? It might also be associated with the Propane/Carbon Monoxide monitor/alarm.

Also, I do not remember seeing '3 lightning bolts' available for heating the water on the digital display.

John

Nomad · March 2016

Hmmmm - That's interesting. Can't recall seeing that or anyone mentioning it before.

ChanW · March 2016

There's a fuse like that on the supply to the propane/CO detector.

See my previous post about fuses for the Alde. They're the only ones that I know of.

I have the simple non-digital control. It was made for the European Alde, which has three power settings for their 220vAC mode.

The American version of the Alde has two power settings for the 110vAC 'shore power' mode. I think the two settings correspond to 900W and 1800W or so. There's probably a selection on your digital control to choose high or low power mode when using 110v.

Higher wattage heats the water/glycol faster.

jctangney · March 2016

Yes, the digital control panel basically has an off, medium, and high for heating the water. From what I have gotten feedback here, it appears that the medium allows heating water and the space/air in the trailer, while the high setting is just to heat water. I do appreciate the great feedback of info here!

John

ChrisK · March 2016

So, I've done a lot of reading about the Alde and studying how it works in my camper. Here's what I have figured out about it.
First of all, it was designed around a 220v electrical system. In our campers, obviously, it is restricted to 110v. We can't use the higher shore power settings they have in Europe so it doesn't work to its fullest efficiency in our campers. On the other hand, under propane, it can work to its designed efficiency. What does this man for us? It takes longer to heat under shore power than propane. Why? With the limited power under shore power, it just can't keep the heat in the system to overcome the cooling effect of the unheated coolant in the system. So what happens from a cold start is the heating element comes on and the pump circulates the cold fluid in the system. That constant circulation makes it difficult to get the fluid up to temp so it heats slowly. The system has to work hard under its "limited" power to overcome this. That's why they recommend you turn down the circulation pump speed. After a while, it reaches a point where the fluid finally heats up enough that the system catches up. With the higher power settings of the 220v system, it can overcome this much easier. Same thing with propane.

Yes, the new digital thermostat has a 30 minute hot water "boost" mode to get extra hot hot water and yes, the heat for the camper won't run during that 30 minute period (again, no pump circulating the cold fluid through the heater core). One thing I want to experiment with is running the boost mode right before turning on the heat to see if it can overcome the cold start quicker.

What I do now is turn on the heat when I park the camper and set it such so it so the pump doesn't come on. This will heat up the water in heater core and the fluid outside the core to a certain extent via convection. This is with the digital system. With the manual thermostat, set the slider to hot water only.

If I arrive too late to do this, I fire up the system on propane, let the system heat up, then switch back to shore power only. It maintains temp just fine from there.

Does that all make sense?

We also have a small electric heater we keep stored in the camper to get the interior up to heat if it is really cold.

We love the system. So quiet compared to the forced air heater system in our previous popup and most RVs. No jet engine cycling on and off in the middle of the night to wake you up.

jkjenn · March 2016

You bring up a couple of good points that I think tend to get overlooked. Depending on weather conditions, you might consider changing from heat and hot water to just hot water.

I also agree, that the quietness of the Alde is awesome.

ChanW · March 2016

Hmmm. I wonder.

Chris, why not both propane and shore power for the quickest heat? From my understanding of the Alde docs, when used together, the propane adds to the electric. You think the propane by itself would be faster? It would be an interesting to test it to work it out.

I also had the idea that Alde uses a completely different heating coil for the US 110v version. I'm pretty sure the wattage (power) is the same in the European and US models, they just removed the third heat setting in ours. Maybe not, I'll have to check that.

ChrisK said:

So, I've done a lot of reading about the Alde and studying how it works in my camper. Here's what I have figured out about it.
First of all, it was designed around a 220v electrical system. In our campers, obviously, it is restricted to 110v. We can't use the higher shore power settings they have in Europe so it doesn't work to its fullest efficiency in our campers. On the other hand, under propane, it can work to its designed efficiency. What does this man for us? It takes longer to heat under shore power than propane. Why? With the limited power under shore power, it just can't keep the heat in the system to overcome the cooling effect of the unheated coolant in the system. So what happens from a cold start is the heating element comes on and the pump circulates the cold fluid in the system. That constant circulation makes it difficult to get the fluid up to temp so it heats slowly. The system has to work hard under its "limited" power to overcome this. That's why they recommend you turn down the circulation pump speed. After a while, it reaches a point where the fluid finally heats up enough that the system catches up. With the higher power settings of the 220v system, it can overcome this much easier. Same thing with propane.

Yes, the new digital thermostat has a 30 minute hot water "boost" mode to get extra hot hot water and yes, the heat for the camper won't run during that 30 minute period (again, no pump circulating the cold fluid through the heater core). One thing I want to experiment with is running the boost mode right before turning on the heat to see if it can overcome the cold start quicker.

What I do now is turn on the heat when I park the camper and set it such so it so the pump doesn't come on. This will heat up the water in heater core and the fluid outside the core to a certain extent via convection. This is with the digital system. With the manual thermostat, set the slider to hot water only.

If I arrive too late to do this, I fire up the system on propane, let the system heat up, then switch back to shore power only. It maintains temp just fine from there.

Does that all make sense?

We also have a small electric heater we keep stored in the camper to get the interior up to heat if it is really cold.

We love the system. So quiet compared to the forced air heater system in our previous popup and most RVs. No jet engine cycling on and off in the middle of the night to wake you up.

jctangney · March 2016

I definitely agree about the quietness of the heat in the T@B vs. the very loud (and very battery hungry) forced air heating of other trailers. There is the minor gurgling sound to get used to, but my wife likes to think of it as the sound of a babbling brook!

As for fast heating, wonder if there is much difference between propane and propane plus electricity. I will need to try that as well.

John

jkjenn · March 2016

jctangney said:

I definitely agree about the quietness of the heat in the T@B vs. the very loud (and very battery hungry) forced air heating of other trailers. There is the minor gurgling sound to get used to, but my wife likes to think of it as the sound of a babbling brook!
As for fast heating, wonder if there is much difference between propane and propane plus electricity. I will need to try that as well.
John

I have found, as the manual indicates, it does heat up faster with both.

Verna · March 2016

I have been camping in my T@B since Jan 1st (78 days and counting).

While I have encountered a few sub freezing nights, I have never tried to use both electric and propane. With patience and a sweatshirt, the T@B interior heats up quickly while I'm setting up other "things".

I always make sure the heat is the first thing I attend to, whether it be boondocking and turning on the propane, or camping on the few electric sites I've had and plugging the electric cable in first. It's amazing how quickly it warms up if you are busy! "A watched pot never boils."

First Trip with New 2016 T@B S MAX (Modified)

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