Battery Inverter/charger upgrade

RFraer

I am doing a mock-up in my garage for a battery Inverter/charger upgrade. I want to get most of the cabling done outside of the TAB 400. I did power it up and it works great.

On paper this should run my Air conditioner for at least 7 hours.

I will now be able to stop at a Walmart in the summer and still be comfortable.

For boondocking I can use a smaller generator and use it less often.

SOK lithium batteries 206Ah each 618Ah total

Victron multiples 3000 12v

Denny16

Interesting idea RFraer, what year is your TaB400 build?  I would be concerned with the total weight of this battery/inverter setup also, compared withnthe weight of original AGM Batteries.  

Depending on the year of your TaB was built, the floor construction is different, and may be an issue supporting the weight.  Also, this could change your total trailer weight distribution and effect the tongue weight negatively (making it too light).
 Cheers 

RFraer

Denny16 said:

Interesting idea RFraer, what year is your TaB400 build?  I would be concerned with the total weight of this battery/inverter setup also, compared withnthe weight of original AGM Batteries.  

Depending on the year of your TaB was built, the floor construction is different, and may be an issue supporting the weight.  Also, this could change your total trailer weight distribution and effect the tongue weight negatively (making it too light).
 Cheers 

I did consider the weight, by my estimate I am adding 40 lbs. There is only 10lbs difference in battery weight and about 5X more usable energy storage.   I have looked at the frame and crossmembers I don’t think there will be a problem with structure.  Ironically I had my original AC replaced with a Cool-Cat that was relocated from the rear to the front so after the upgrade my weight balance will be closer to when I bought the camper.

Denny16

Good, then you should be good to go.  When my 200 amp AGM needs replaced, it will be with 300-400 amps of Lithium also.
 Cheers 

Dutch061

Looking great!

I will be very interested to hear back on your experience after you have it set up and using it. I am loaded with 400 Ah of Battleborn in our 2020 TAB 400 BDL after adding 2 more batteries a couple of weeks ago. I am on my first outing since that addition and I am very impressed.

I will be curious to 2 factors mostly.

1. How your actual battery life is using your AC
2. Amount of time to recharge the 618 Ah of batteries. 

You mention "being able to use a smaller generator less often" to charge your battery bank. My concern would be that to charge at 120 Amps (if I looked at the correct Victron unit) will push the limits of a smaller generator. However, I realize that this unit has Power Control and Power Assist but I don't believe that will do much for charging beyond limiting the charge current to prevent generator overload. Which essentially means that you may not be able to get 120 Amps charging current while using a smaller generator.

I am using a 60 Amp PD Converter and if I am completely spent, on paper it appears that it will take close to 7 hours, which is still a fraction of the time required with the WFCO and stock AGM batteries (at least on a 2020). I have considered bumping to an 80 Amp charger, but it requires a 20 Amp outlet for power. Some of the reviews I have read with the 80 Amp is people having issues trying to use generators that are in the 2000 Watt range and not able to due to "over current". Since I am using a 3500 Watt generator, that is not so much of a concern for me while camping but it could introduce problems trying to charge at home. As per the specs from PD, this is only supposed to draw 1300 Watts (10.83 Amps) but as mentioned from the reviews it apparently is much higher. Which allegedly PD has stated to some of the people who have reviewed.

Brad

rh5555

Slightly off-topic, but interesting:

We have the the Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C which monitors all shore power to our trailer. This unit incorrectly reports the current consumed by our converter -  it reads about 33% high.  I believe this is because the converter presents an inductive load (so current and voltage are not in-phase) and the EMS-HW30C doesn't account for this.  If you want to accurately measure the current drawn by your inverter, use something like a Kill-a-watt power monitor - this seems to be accurate.

Dutch061

@rh5555, great point. I have a clamp on inductive amp meter if I really want to know other than looking at the display on my generator. I know in the past, you have mentioned the inaccuracy of the current measuring function of the EMS-HW30C, so I have never even looked at it. If I am at a campsite with power (rare occurrence), I will look to make sure it is free of errors and that is all.

I am suspecting that the Victron unit will take 15 Amps @120 VAC at least while putting out 120 Amps @ 12 VDC

Brad

RFraer

I will update the post when I get the system fully installed and post my findings after running the AC off grid and charging with a generator. I admit that I have not used my Honda 2000 to charge the batteries yet but am assuming if I adjust the multiplus amp draw below the generator amp output the generator will not trip.

 I understand that I will have limited charging capability though solar and a 9 amp (110w) DC-DC charger off the tow vehicle 7pin but I plan on adding an additional 30 amp DC-Dc charger and Anderson connector to the tow vehicle to get more charge current from my 240 amp alternator.  I attached my wiring diagram, I have limited electrical experience so if anyone sees any mistakes let me know.

Viajero

Good morning RFraer. If you don’t mind me asking. 

1. Is the 9 amp DC to DC converter the Victron model?  

2.  Where did you intercept the charge line?  Back of the converter etc?  

3.  We’ll go with the stock Harris 6 volt AGM’s for a season to see how they do, but I’m curious what you are setting your charge voltage for out of the DC to DC converter. 14.2 volts etc. 

4.  No alternator as our tow vehicle is a Tesla. But the voltage at the 7 pin connector is apparently low 13 ish volts. The other reason we don’t want to add batteries is the tesla has an 82 KW battery on board that is accessible through the 7 pin when the car is in “camp mode”. 

Our car and trailer arrive in a couple months so just wrapping my mind around some of our planned mods. 

Thanks in advance. 

John 

PS   The picture is of the DC to DC converter we will use for our project. 

RFraer

John,

 1.   Yes it is the same 9 amp (110w DC to DC converter as you show,  I was going to use the 18 amp converter but my 7- pin wiring is 12ga  rated for 20 amps and that was to close for me. I plan on adding a 30amp converter wired straight to the alternator soon.  The two converters should  give me 550 watts to charge the batteries when driving. I will also have some power from  solar so after a 8 hour drive I should have close to a full charge.

2.  My Batteries and inverter are in the back under the bed and the WCO power center is in front under the small dinette seat. I plan to connect to the 6 ga wires going into the 12v feed from the batteries near the WCO up front.

3. The primary reason for upgrading for me is to not need a RV campground on hot weather days. As long as you don’t want off grid air conditioning  without using a generator the Harris 6 volt AGM’s work fine. 

4 Is it the Tesla Truck? that would look cool.

Viajero

RFraer said:

John,

 1.   Yes it is the same 9 amp (110w DC to DC converter as you show,  I was going to use the 18 amp converter but my 7- pin wiring is 12ga  rated for 20 amps and that was to close for me. I plan on adding a 30amp converter wired straight to the alternator soon.  The two converters should  give me 550 watts to charge the batteries when driving. I will also have some power from  solar so after a 8 hour drive I should have close to a full charge.

2.  My Batteries and inverter are in the back under the bed and the WCO power center is in front under the small dinette seat. I plan to connect to the 6 ga wires going into the 12v feed from the batteries near the WCO up front.

3. The primary reason for upgrading for me is to not need a RV campground on hot weather days. As long as you don’t want off grid air conditioning  without using a generator the Harris 6 volt AGM’s work fine. 

4 Is it the Tesla Truck? that would look cool.

Great info. Thank you. It is not the Cybertruck but rather the model Y. 

The reason we chose this victron model is the 7 pin charge line is limited to 16 amps peak or 12 amps constant. It is a self resetting soft breaker. (Software controlled breaker). 

I think my plan will be to identify the wire leaving the junction box under the storage box on the tongue and then find that wire on the back of the converter. Intercept it there and run it into the victron dc to dc converter. From there run a separate line to the battery. That will allow for normal operation of the converter when on shore power. 

If our trailer battery gets too low and solar can’t keep up (in the shade or whatever) I can put the Tesla in “camp mode” and feed the trailer battery with 9 amps via the victron. The victron will boost the voltage to a decent level for charging, although the current will drop off somewhat. 

Impressive diagram by the way. I’m sure that will work out well. Kudos on the 6 gauge. I’m doing everything with 10 gauge...for now. 

Cheers. 

RFraer

Forgot to mention my charge voltage is 14.6 for the SOK batteries. 

Viajero

RFraer said:

Forgot to mention my charge voltage is 14.6 for the SOK batteries. 

Good to know. I was thinking along the lines of 14.2 volts for the AGM’s. A little less than ideal for bulk charging but a little more set and forget. Thoughts?  

RFraer

Viajero said:

RFraer said:

Forgot to mention my charge voltage is 14.6 for the SOK batteries. 

Good to know. I was thinking along the lines of 14.2 volts for the AGM’s. A little less than ideal for bulk charging but a little more set and forget. Thoughts?  

If you get solar on your camper I would set the converter to match the solar charger value set by NuCamp for AGM’s

Viajero

RFraer said:

Viajero said:

RFraer said:

Forgot to mention my charge voltage is 14.6 for the SOK batteries. 

Good to know. I was thinking along the lines of 14.2 volts for the AGM’s. A little less than ideal for bulk charging but a little more set and forget. Thoughts?  

If you get solar on your camper I would set the converter to match the solar charger value set by NuCamp for AGM’s

Good point. We ordered it with the solar. Not sure what the controller is set for but I’ll measure it when we get it and then adjust the victron accordingly. Good catch. Thank you. 

John. 

BDA123

Thanks for the wiring diagram and this conversation. I am doing a similar upgrade to my 2018 TAB 400 in the next couple months. I have 2 x 12v 300ah (BMS is 200a max) Lifepo4 batteries that I am running in series (24v). I already have 300w of flexible solar panels on the roof run parallel. I am replacing the stock (Zamp ZS-30A from my dealership) charge controller with the following Victron setup which I just got at a 10% discount on black friday: Multiplus 3000 24v, Bluesolar 75/15 12/24 charge controller (running current panels in series), GX Touch 50 (in the same spot at the foot of the bed where the dealer installed my current Zamp contoller), Cerbo GX, Lynx Disributor, 275A battery switch, Orion 24/12 inverter, and 500a Smartshunt. I also added the SoftstartRV for the Coolcat AC to soften the startup amp draw from about 1300w to 900w. I am going to add a second set of RV panels (with a second Bluesolar 75/15) off of the Jackit bike rack on the tongue of my TAB for when I am stationary. I figure when I stop I can pull down the bikes and throw up three 200w panels on a T brace out of the top of the Jack-it at a 30% angle facing whichever direction the sun is. I think with the 300w of flexible and 600w (my brother actually gets 750w out of three RICH solar 200w panels) of rigid solar I should be able to boondock anywhere and run AC in the Arizona summer even.

I may eventually add about 30 amps of alternator charging for when I am driving and not using the rigid solar but that is a later update. Granted, I have considered skipping the alternator charging and just attaching the 600w of rigid solar panels to my truck bed rack above my truck tent (until I setup camp and move them to my Jack-it). This way I always have essentially 1000w of power while driving or sitting still which would allow me to keep the air conditioner on while driving down the road without drawing on the batteries. Its always nice when you can pull over to the side of the road and have your own air conditioned private bathroom.

Please let me know how the install of the Multiplus goes and any suggestions you have.

BDA123

By the way, your diagram looks pretty solid. I'm running 200a (unlike your 300a max) but at 24v instead of 12v. Nevertheless, I was running 2/0 on the main battery lines and 6 awg on the other lines. So we are similar in that aspect. 2/0 seems kinda borderline for the 300a max draw for an extended period of time but I doubt you will exceed 200a most of the time with the Multiplus. I too use the Honda 2200i for backup power and to fill my batteries when needed (which shouldn't be too often).

RFraer

I am starting the install tomorrow. I did not install a Soft start because the Multiplus is a hybrid inverter. When running on a generator if the amp draw exceeds the generator capability the Multiples will temporarily take energy from the batteries to get over the surge. I also got the Control Panel  so I can manually set the current limit on the Multiples an amp below the generator current output and above the CoolCat's 9amp draw after startup. This is all in theory, I have never tried it. I will know more when I am done.

BDA123

I completely understand not needing the soft start during generator times with your setup. I was more worried about the extra 300 watts when I am maxing out the rest of the system (30 amp draw at 110v) while the water heater/ac/micro are all working at the same time. Plus the soft start makes the ac start quieter in theory which makes it a bit quieter when sleeping. Granted the vent above the queen is probably the loudest element of the whole system.

RFraer

I finished the install, took a full three days. Could do it in half the time now that I have been through it.The air conditioner runs great off the Multiplus. The temperature was 79 here yesterday and I actually used the AC off grid to get the temperature down while I worked in the camper.  When I purchased the multiples I gave the supplier the incorrect amp charge settings, they set it up for 40 amps which is ok for one of my SOK batteries, but I have three the setting should have been 120 amps. Now I have to buy a VE.Bus to USB interface ($70) to change the charge setting.  

Viajero

Damn.  Nice job dude. You should hire yourself out?  Let me know when you can fit us into your schedule. Of course we are coming from BC Canada so give us a little heads up. LOL 😂

RFraer

Viajero said:

Damn.  Nice job dude. You should hire yourself out?  Let me know when you can fit us into your schedule. Of course we are coming from BC Canada so give us a little heads up. LOL 😂

Thanks, If I was younger, I would get some additional training and do installs for a living, there is good money in it. I am retired and it was rough getting into some areas. It will take me a few days to recover.

Viajero

LOL. I hear ya. I retired last month. Now we are waiting for the snow to go and the trailer (and SUV) to arrive. Then on the road. 

Denny16

Looks grand @RFraer, you might want to cut a few vent holes in the front battery area panel to allow for some air flow s d cooling to the MultiPlus unit.  While this took up your center under bunk storage area, it was formally ykur Air8 AC space, so a win-win situation.  Looking forward to hearing how long the setup will lower the CoolCat AC.
 Cheers 

RFraer

Danny16   I think you are correct on cooling. Two areas I did poorly is venting and wire routing out of the front panel. Next week I will remake the panel that holds the power cutoff switch. It will include a 50mm 12v fan and a 100-degree thermal switch. There is an exhaust vent in the rear of the enclosure for the previous AGM batteries, that should work for removing the air. I will also move the wires down to the camper floor and route the wires between the panel and floor.

Also you were correct on your concern with weight of this battery/inverter. Once I got in there I noticed the AGM battery box was supported by the side panels and floor. The floor had supporter the AC unit so I new it could support a fair amount of weight but to be safe I mounted the new batteries on 2x2 aluminum angles attached to the side panels and the inverter sits on ¾ plywood also attached to the side panels, the floor is seeing significantly less weight

Denny16

You could use the Air8 duct vent, add a tube through to the battery compartment and use it to vent out heat.  Put the fan down low in the middle of the divider panel, and Bob’s your uncle... 
cheers

BDA123

RFraer said:

I finished the install, took a full three days. Could do it in half the time now that I have been through it.The air conditioner runs great off the Multiplus. The temperature was 79 here yesterday and I actually used the AC off grid to get the temperature down while I worked in the camper.  When I purchased the multiples I gave the supplier the incorrect amp charge settings, they set it up for 40 amps which is ok for one of my SOK batteries, but I have three the setting should have been 120 amps. Now I have to buy a VE.Bus to USB interface ($70) to change the charge setting.  

Question for you. Did you pull the WFCO WF-8955-PEC 30 Amp converter out of your power box and wire direct to your DC in the power box from your batteries? I started my conversion and was curious if I even need the converter in the bottom of my power/fuse/breaker box. I'm going with 24v and I'd rather put my 24v to 12v converter in the space and have it supply the fuse box directly.

RFraer

I did remove the converter from the WFCO. I now charge the batteries with the Multiplus. The power box would be a good place for the 24v to 12v converter since it is a short run to the 12v fuse box.

BDA123

Thanks, I'll post some info and pictures when I finish the project. I'm doing a little at a time since I store my trailer at my cabin an hour from my house. I think mine may look a bit different than yours since I have a 2018 TAB 400 which is all under the bed and nothing involving the wiring upfront by the door. I'm also trying to leave enough space in the center area under the bed to expand from 300ah of Lifepo4 at 24v to 440ahs. Its a fun project for me.

Tabulating

Thanks for the great info.  This is a bit of a cliffhanger.  I think we are all interested in hearing the details on runtime of the CoolCat.

We like some AC for sleeping and some of the parks we stay at have quiet hours that prohibit generators after 10pm.  Eight hours would be great.

Waiting for the next episode...

Bill

JeffroNC

RFraer said:

I finished the install, took a full three days. Could do it in half the time now that I have been through it.The air conditioner runs great off the Multiplus. The temperature was 79 here yesterday and I actually used the AC off grid to get the temperature down while I worked in the camper.  When I purchased the multiples I gave the supplier the incorrect amp charge settings, they set it up for 40 amps which is ok for one of my SOK batteries, but I have three the setting should have been 120 amps. Now I have to buy a VE.Bus to USB interface ($70) to change the charge setting.  

Great job. I wonder if the Smart Dongle would allow you the make the needed changes via Bluetooth? If going this route you would have remote monitoring on your smart phone. I use that instead of the built in display on my Victron devices.