Shore Power not working

Parlando

I have a 2015 Outback 320.  No bathroom and no AC.  On a recent trip with cold weather I notice that I was not getting shore power to work.  Luckily I could heat with propane.  Now that I am home I have been trying to cipher out what is wrong.  I have checked the circuit breakers, and turned them all on and off and on.  I checked all fuses I could find, including the two Alde fuses.  I plugged in my RV cord, which has always worked in the past, and the little blue light lights up.  I also checked that outlet in my garage and it is good.  I disconnected the RV cord, and my little motorcycle volt meter in my cigarette power socket reads 12.7 (yesterday) and 12.5 today.  Normally it reads 13.+ when I am plugged in at home or via Shore power.  I disconnected the RV cord and the volt meter reads the same. 12.5 instead of 13.+.   I disconnected the battery and there is no juice in the T@B, even with the RV cord plugged in.  As per other discussions I looked for a battery disconnect switch, and a battery 1 or 2 setting and don't find them...perhaps they are not on this model.   I'm pretty handy around the house but not with electrical.  Looking for any suggestions, and thanks.

FishDoctor

Is there a GFCI outlet next to the converter in your T@B? I have one in my 2017 320S. If so, check that the safety circuit is not tripped by pushing the reset button on the outlet. In my T@B, all the outlets will be off if that GFCI outlet is tripped. The ALDE is plugged into an outlet, so if the AC power to outlets is cut off, the ALDE will not run on electric power. 

pthomas745

If you heated with propane, your battery is working, since the Alde needs a bit of battery to work.  If your battery seems to be not working now, there is a fuse at the battery in a little green holder, so check it.

Parlando

Thank you FishDoctor and pthomas.  There is a GFCI outlet on the outside of the bench next to the brown fuse cabinet.  I did trip it and reset it. I also checked the outlet that the Alde is plugged into by plugging in a light. It worked when I had the battery hooked up. Nothing worked when the battery was not hooked up.  And hi pthomas. The battery does work.  I simply disconnected the battery while leaving the RV cord connected to sort out where I am drawing power from.  I can draw power from the battery... no problem there.  But if the battery is disconnected, and the RV cord is plugged in there is no power. That is my problem. 

pthomas745

Ok, thanks.  Seems my reading comprehension is taking an early weekend! 

MuttonChops

Parlando said: {{ part -1 }}
. . . 2015 Outback 320.  No bathroom and no AC.

. . . have checked the circuit breakers, and turned them all on /off /on.
. . . checked all fuses I could find,
. . .  plugged in my RV cord, which has always worked in the past,
        and the little blue light lights up.
. . .  checked that outlet in my garage and it is good.
. . .  disconnected the RV cord, and my little motorcycle volt meter
        in my cigarette power socket reads 12.7 (yesterday) and 12.5 today.
        Normally it reads 13.+ when I am plugged in at home or via Shore
        power.

Parlando said: {{ part -2 }}
. . . GFCI outlet . . . did trip it and reset it.
. . . checked the outlet that the Alde is plugged into by plugging in a light.
      It worked when I had the battery hooked up.
. . .  Nothing worked when the battery was not hooked up.
. . . if the battery is disconnected, and the RV cord is plugged in
      there is no power. 

For the conditions in part-1 it sounds like the Power Center 120vac-12VDC Convertor is off or bad.
It could be 'off' due to a bad circuit breaker (not a common failure but possible).
Since the TaB is 7-years-old it is more likely the convertor has gone bad.

The conditions in part-2 are confusing @Parando states the Alde 120vac outlet will power a test lamp, however the test lamp only works when the Shore Power and Battery are connected.
The TaB 120vac is fully isolated from the battery 12VDC.  Having the battery 'off' or 'on' should have no impact on the 120vac outlets.

Is it possible @Parando did not correctly state the results/conditions?

For Reference see the first post & attached PDF file in this location:
https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/6406/electrical-resources#latest

ScottG

I'm a little confused about the "test light" as well.

Otherwise, since you have no 120V AC when plugged in, this sounds like a case of shore power not making it to the power center. Keep following your connections downstream. If you are sure power is making it to the end of your cable, I would next check the connections inside the T@Bs shore power receptacle. There have been a few instances of wires in there coming loose.

Parlando

Hello MuttonChops.  Thanks for your comment, "Is it possible @Parando did not correctly state the results/conditions?", and where I stated, "I also checked the outlet that the Alde is plugged into by plugging in a light. It worked when I had the battery hooked up. Nothing worked when the battery was not hooked up."  I will double check that result.  It is possible as I was running all of these tests consecutively, and then writing them down all at once.  So it sounds to me that I probably misstated that.  And I'll check my wiring.  Thanks ScottG for your suggestions.  I'm certain I have power coming to the outlet in the garage where the RV cord is plugged in.  I'll double check that there is power coming out of the RV cord at the other end where it enters the trailer.

ScottG

@Parando, unless you have an inverter installed by a previous owner, there is no way the battery would power any of the 120V AC outlets. I think that is the source of our confusion.

The 120V AC plug on the Alde powers only the electric heating elements. If a test light worked, then the outlet has power, and the Alde should heat on electric as well.

Based on all your other reported symptoms, I'm stickin' with the story that 120V AC power isn't making it to the power center. The trick is figuring out where the circuit is broken. Good luck and keep us posted!

Parlando

1. I double checked, and the light did work when I plugged in to the same outlet which the Alde plugs into.  So I think it means that power is good from the source (my garage outlet) and through the RV cord and that far. 
   
2. With the light plugged in to the ALDE outlet I tripped the GFCI next to the fuse panel and the light stayed on.
3. I moved the light to the GFCI outlet and tripped the GFCI. The light went out, and then came on when I reset the GFCI.
4. Where is the main junction wiring box?  I will check the wire connections next.

Thank you very much.   -Doug

ScottG

All 120V AC power is routed through the circuit breaker panel in the WFCO power center. In effect this is no different than the breaker panel in your house, just smaller.

Shore power is routed through the main breaker. The main breaker feeds separate branch circuits serving the Alde, fridge, and air conditioner, as well as a circuit for the accessible cabin outlets (all of which are connected through the GFCI outlet adjacent to the power center). 

If your test light is working in those outlets--even if it is tripping the GFCI--than getting shore power into the camper is not the problem.

So, let's back up... with the battery DISCONNECTED and the T@B plugged into shore power:

1. Do the lights, fan, and other 12V DC devices work?
2. Does the fridge work on 120V AC?
3. Does the Alde work using only propane as the heat source?
4. Does the Alde work using only electricity as the heat source?
5. Do the accessible cabin outlets work?  

Parlando

Thank you ScottG.  I will check all those points.  By the way, I tripped the GFCI and reset it myself.  It was not tripped on its own.  Thanks again.  D

Parlando

ScottG, you directed: "with the battery DISCONNECTED and the T@B plugged into shore power:"  Here are the results:

1. Do the lights, fan, and other 12V DC devices work?  No
   
2. Does the fridge work on 120V AC? No
3. Does the Alde work using only propane as the heat source? No, I don't think so. I turned it on and waited and heard nothing.
   
4. Does the Alde work using only electricity as the heat source?  No, I don't think so. I turned it on and waited and heard nothing.
5. Do the accessible cabin outlets work?  YES, they all worked.

Also, the 40 fuse under the brown cover under the passenger side couch looked fine, but I replaced it and no changes.

The only fuses I know of are here, along with the three circuit breakers, and also the two glass fuses on top of the ALDE. 

Parlando

Oops, I just realized I forgot to turn the Propane tank on. I'll go do that check now.

Parlando

Okay, I just turned on the propane (with the battery disconnected) and the ALDE did not work.  Then I reconnected the battery and tried the ALDE with Propane only, and I immediately heard it start up.   thanks.

ScottG

This does point to the converter (which circles us back to @MuttonChops' earlier comment).

If the cabin outlets work than 120V AC power is getting to the power center and the 120V AC circuits via the circuit breaker panel.

However, the lights, fan, and the electronics of both the Alde and 3-way fridge require 12V DC power. This is provided by the converter, but the battery will provide it also if the battery is connected--this can confound diagnostics. Since none of those functions work when the battery is disconnected, than the converter is the likely culprit. Whether the converter itself is faulty or it is just not getting power from the 120V AC side, is the next question.

On my 2015, the converter receives power from the same 120V AC circuit breaker that powers the cabin outlets. If that were faulty (again as per @MuttonChops' earlier suggestion) the converter may be okay but just not receiving any power.

In either case, the fact that the GFCI on that 120V AC circuit keeps tripping is curious, and possibly related. Where exactly the problem lies (if it in fact is a problem) is difficult to say--it could be in the converter, the AC circuit breaker, the GFCI itself, or somewhere else within the outlet circuit. (It could also just be the lamp you were testing with...)

The converter itself is an integral part of the power center. I'm not sure if it can be replaced separately, but I doubt it.

Parlando

Hi ScottG,  Thanks for following up.  A few clarifications: The GFCI does not keep tripping.  I tripped it purposely using the trip button, and reset it, just to be sure that it was working.  Also I don't have AC in the trailer.  Our fridge only works on electric, not propane.

Is there another way to test the GFCI. (I can trip it manually, and then reset it and it seems to work.) Can it be faulty if it test correctly as mine does. Should I replace the GFCI?

Same question for the circuit breaker.  Is there a way to test it vs just replacing it?

Also, I wonder if there is an internal fuse I am missing somewhere.  For example, is there an internal fuse in the converter  or power center that I don't know about?

Finally, I looked at your previous post of a Schematic and photograph of main junction box wiring. Wanted to check that all the wires are tight, but not sure where this is. The download was at https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/7k/goe6ndgzkzei.jpg

Thanks again for your knowledge and help,

Parlando

MuttonChops

@Parlando ; I encourage you to put your efforts into verifying the Power Center Convertor is functioning.
Your overall description tracks with the WFCO Troubleshooting flow-chart as a bad convertor.

Picture - 1  is part of the Flow-Chart

Picture -2   is from the Tech Tips Document with additional info on how to test Convertor Output.

Parlando

Thank you @MuttonChops. I think I'll try to enlist a friend who is pretty good at electronics and we'll go through the Troubleshooting charts. I really appreciate the guidance.  I have to admit, I hope that a fuse replacement will be the cure... I'm not looking forward to a total Power Center replacement.  I'll check in later and let ScottG know how it turns out.

Parlando

• Hi MuttonChops. 
  
• The image for Image 2 is a bit fuzzy.  Does arrow B point to the left side of the top fuse holder?
• I think that Arrow A is pointing to the left side of the Reverse polarity fuse holder?
• For the ground connection (Green Box in diagram) do I test where the white wire connect to the common ground board?
• A real novice question, what setting should my volt meter be on?
• When & if needed, should I get an exact replacement of my Converter, which is a WFCO WF-8735-P?
• Any recommendations where to purchase one?

Thanks very much for your patience and help.  -Parlando

MuttonChops

Parlando said:

• Hi MuttonChops. 
  
• The image for Image 2 is a bit fuzzy.  Does arrow B point to the left side of the top fuse holder?
• I think that Arrow A is pointing to the left side of the Reverse polarity fuse holder?
• For the ground connection (Green Box in diagram) do I test where the white wire connect to the common ground board?
• A real novice question, what setting should my volt meter be on?
• When & if needed, should I get an exact replacement of my Converter, which is a WFCO WF-8735-P?
• Any recommendations where to purchase one?

Thanks very much for your patience and help.  -Parlando

Yes, the measurement points are on the left side of the fuse holder with fuse removed.

For ground, the Power Center has a WHITE wire connected to the ground bus bar normally mounted on the floor behind the Power Center.

If you can read the image TEXT there is a description of the above.

Parlando

Thanks again.

Parlando

Looks like I will need a new power center.  I cannot find my current one, the WFCO WF-8735-P.  I think it is discontinued.  Any thoughts about the Progressive Dynamics: PD-4135 KW2BV or the PD-4045KV?

MuttonChops

If it were my Trailer - - - -
Would Call WFCO customer Service and ask about . . .
   - availability
   - Convertor only availability
   - WFCO replacement for (if obsolete) 8735-P

Contact ARTERRA DISTRIBUTION Technical Support at (877) 294-8997 or (574)294-8997

Parlando

Thanks.  I was on line for hours today.  WFCO website sent me to a robot chat that was circular and then wanted me to fill out a form.  I'll try the phone numbers you gave me tomorrow.

pthomas745

Sorry to hear about this...but, they do fail.  Rare, but...

Here are some threads about one of the Progressive Dynamics power centers you mentioned, with installation threads.

The 4135.  I could not find threads on the 4045KV

https://www.google.com/search?q=PD-4135+site:tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=APq-WBs2Eu0-GxBmS7H-qbjOHc4zMV6BOg:1647319635996&ei=UxowYty0PIagkPIP4beb2AM&ved=0ahUKEwicqvDtp8f2AhUGEEQIHeHbBjsQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=PD-4135+site:tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EANKBAhBGAFKBAhGGABQzglYrxtgmR5oAnAAeACAAViIAZMEkgEBN5gBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

dsfdogs

@Parlando I replaced the WFCO 8735-P with the 8735LiS (lithium option, which can be used for lead acid or lithium batteries). Apache RV in Portland ordered it from nuCamp and installed it for me. Maybe WFCO can direct you to a source for purchase.

Parlando

Thank you dsfdogs.  I've been trying to contact WFCO and haven't heard back from them.  I may go with the Progressive Dynamics.  It also has the advantage of having a rapid charge in the rare occasion that I need that. I appreciate your input!

Parlando

Hey there ptthomas745, I wanted to thank you for your help. I ordered the Progressive Dynamics power center today.  Fingers crossed.

Parlando

I just finished installing a new power converter, replacing the WFCO WF-8734 with a new Progressive Dynamics 4135KW2BV.  I have two questions: 

  1:  The old converter had one less wire coming out of the back than the Progressive Dynamics does. The new PD has a 40 amp Reverse Battery Protection Fuse which leads to a red wire coming out of the back.  And there is an additional red wire coming out next to it. 

I'm stymied on how to hook up the 40 amp Reverse Battery Protection fuse red wire coming out of the back, and/or the 30 amp red wire next to it?  Anyone know?

  2:  In addition there are the same number 5 black wires that are fused. Copied the wire connections as per my old converter, but I'm not sure that the fuse ratings are correct.  I have:

1.  Reverse polarity   40 amp.    Red wire comes out of the back.      Connected to battery
   
2.  Not currently hooked up to anything.  30 amp   Second red wire
3.  Alde heater   15 amp
4.  Pump    10 amp
   
5.  Lights, radio, USB   10 amp
6.  Refrigerator   15 amp
7.  Fan  10 amp

I sent an email to Progressive Dynamics but they haven't answered so far.  Thanks for all of the advice and help.  It's great to have this community.

Parlando

I just found this on Amazon. 

From Progressive Dynamics:  Just the red wire in position 001 goes to the battery. The second red wire is for a 30 amp max DC circuit , the blacks are for 20 amp max DC circuits. The #2 Red is just like the black wires but I’d 30 amp. Don’t hook this wire to the battery, you may destroy your Power Center!

I'm amazed that this info wasn't provided with the converter.

So my second question still stands.  Do these appliance/fuse ratings look okay?

I have:

1.  Reverse polarity   40 amp.    Red wire comes out of the back.      Connected to battery
   
2.  Not currently hooked up to anything.  30 amp   Second red wire
3.  Alde heater   15 amp
4.  Pump    10 amp
   
5.  Lights, radio, USB   10 amp
6.  Refrigerator   15 amp
7.  Fan  10 amp