Frozen anti-freeze

Dana

Checked on my TAB the other day as it's been pretty frigid in Gunnison, CO.  Anti-freeze is frozen in the toilet so I assume its the same throughout my plumbing.  Added some new to toilet and poured down shower and sink.  I don't know what else to do, its the nature of the beast here.  Keeping fingers crossed until May.  Has anybody else had negative repurcusions from this?

Yoshi_TAB

Hi, We shouldn't have to do this, but every year when I buy my antifreeze, I put some in a small container into my freezer to confirm the brand I purchased will not freeze.  Some brands are water down and/or not what we think we are getting.  Best wishes and good luck with your issue.

Sharon_is_SAM

Was it frozen solid or just slushy?  If you have the original antifreeze container can you share a photo?

pthomas745

Gunnison Airport got down to -8 on Dec 1, for a point of reference.  And the temps had been in the teens for a day or so before that,  If this owner lives at a higher elevation nearby, it could have been colder. 

MuttonChops

Sharon_is_SAM said:
Was it frozen solid or just slushy?
If you have the original antifreeze container can you share a photo?

This is an important observation . . . as RV "anti-freeze" does get slushy but in general won't freeze solid.

qhumberd

And note that the glycol is designed to get slushy but may not expand when approaching freezing. The expansion is what breaks stuff. That is the burst point. Most list the highest freeze point of their solution at -20 deg

see this

https://www.splashwash.com/application/files/9916/4304/5413/RV_Marine_Antifreeze_Facts_10-22-18.pdf

ChanW

Minus 8 is pretty warm for slushy, it seems.

I aim for -20 for the freeze-point (slush), cuz then the burst point is closer to the potential temp. In Gunnison, I'd think you'd want to be ready for closer to -30 or -40 for the burst point.

Not sure if it applies to RV antifreeze, but you can buy 50/50 antifreeze, or you can get 100% that you dilute to your preference. Maybe you could find some 100% and add it to what you have in there. (Make sure they're both non-toxic 'glycol' - as RV antifreeze is)

Jay1415

I also got concerned when my jug of antifreeze "froze" out in our porch. I found the link posted above and it sounds like the antifreeze can freeze before it expands so no problem. Also, the coldest version offered locally is -75, so I spend a couple bucks extra to get that rather than the -50F. (It often gets to -30 here.)

Dana

Thanks for all the feedback.  I don't have the original container, I think I bought it at Walmart.  Pretty sure it was -50 though.  I'm going to use -100 in the future.  I thought it was "frozen" but my son disagrees, he thinks it is slushy.  I was afraid to poke at it for fear of cracking the rubber rim in toilet. I keep it on a hill at his house so wind chill probably doesn't help.  It had a cover but it ripped when we put it on and then a squall came through and tore the whole thing to pieces.  If I have plumbing problems come spring I may opt to leave it at my brother's house in Grand Junction next year (milder climate).  Gunnison can be brutal in winter.

MarkAl

The link was interesting on freezing and burst point but it also led me to the thought that unless the system was blown out prior to the addition of antifreeze or more than just "see pink" was added, the solution's protection was compromised by dilution. I blow out and only use the antifreeze in the traps so I've not thought about this before. Is it standard to blow out or just drain the low points prior to pumping the fluid in?

gulfarea

The funny thing about antifreze is when it is not mixed with water like right in a new can it can freeze at a much warmer temp but when mixed with water properly it can stand much colder temps!  Years ago while in the military up north a new can said will freeze at a lower so and so temp which really fooled me as in the north in Maine it got much colder than what the can said it was good for. Upon further reading it showed the temps it would freeze at when water was added which were MUCH lower than the raw antifreze not mixed with water temps, sure seemed strange but that is how it works Art

MarkAl

In my "youth" I remember seeing charts on how to dilute for cold temps and if I remember correctly, it was you would dilute for a freeze protection at a higher temp and so the concentrate would last longer... am I remembering wrong? This was in the 60-70s for car protection.

Sharon_is_SAM

@MarkAl - standard winterization of most RVs including the pre 2021 TaBs, only calls for draining the plumbing, then adding AF.  As the TaBs have limited plumbing runs, the blow out method was offered as an option with only adding AF to the P traps and waste tank valves.  NuCamp prefers that owners of Nautilus models drain, blow then fill with antifreeze.

bergger

Living in Gunnison I would not use the -50 you buy at Walmart or most hardware stores.  After moving up to Leadville I made the switch to Prestone -100.  Your temps are very similar and often colder than we have here.  Here is a thread I started on the issue last year.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/14537/frozen-antifreeze#latest

Dana

I just read the post from bergger.......I did use the cheap Walmart Super Tech.  So it's possible to "re-winterize?"  How does that work? I have Prestone -100 coming from Amazon.  

Dana

Can I add Prestone -100 to shower and kitchen drains after winterizing with -50 Super Tech? I've seen some info on Google that says that is a bad idea.  But my dealer said it "wouldn't hurt" Any feedback would be appreciated.

Sharon_is_SAM

I would!  Worse case scenario you end up with diluted -100 Prestone.  If you displace the -50 AF with the -100, you are good to go.  Add enough to be able to get some down to the gate valves.  

bergger

Yeah you should have no issues mixing the two by pouring stuff down the drains.  You most likely have a hepvo drain in the kitchen sink and maybe one in the shower drain.  Our 2021 400 has the hepvo in the kitchen and a traditional trap in the shower pan.  Pouring antifreeze in a hepvo will not do much as it does not hold water like a normal ptrap.   

If you get a warm day with the trailer in the sun I would try to re-winterize with the Prestone.  I would also turn on the Alde heat for a few hours to also help warm things up.  You'll know quickly if you have frozen pipes if nothing comes out when you turn on the 12v pump.  If antfreeze comes out of the faucets just use a few gallons of Prestone to push out the old stuff and you should be fine. 

Mickerly

Just realize, once the water is blown out of the supply side and drained out of the waste side, there is no water to freeze except in the p-traps.

Jay1415

In p-chem class, the instructor put water in a thick metal container and sealed it. He then put that in liquid nitrogen and when the water froze, it broke the container (obviously). I bring this up because he made a point that water is unusual in that it expands when it freezes, and that most liquids contract. So the question is, does antifreeze expand when it freezes? Or does it partially freeze, fully freeze and then expand. I'd think the way to test the expansion is to fully fill a glass container (cheap) and throw it in the freezer and see when it breaks the container. 

Dana

Thanks for all the feedback.  My batteries are pulled so turning Alde heat on isn't possible. I don't see it getting warm anytime soon, so re-winterizing is probably not going to happen. The Prestone -100 antifreeze will be here Monday.  It is propylene glycol.  The -50 Super Tech I winterized with is ethanol based.  Still ok to mix the two by adding Prestone to drains?  Checking the situation today and will post a picture of toilet.

qhumberd

So correct me if I misunderstood but the numbers listed on these products (-50 or -75 or -100) are the burst temp protection for the product. That is the temp that will cause expansion and breakage of the PEX lines. The freeze point of these products is a higher temp, starting with slushy, but at these temps there is no expansion so damage to plumbing lines is unlikely. Does that sound right? If so the -50 product should still be OK in Colorado, though it can at times get that cold, it is pretty uncommon from my 9 years of living there.

Sharon_is_SAM

@Dana - some antifreeze comes blended with ethanol and propylene glycol, so, it is safe for you to combine the two.  Here is a good article about the subject.

https://www.thervgeeks.com/is-rv-antifreeze-toxic/

Jay1415

Here's a link describing the freezing point of mixtures. 
https://www.chardonlabs.com/closed-loop-systems/glycol/

Here are graphs of density showing contraction of propylene glycol when it freezes (higher density). 
https://ingredi.com/content/pdfs/Propylene_Glycol_USP_TDS.pdf

ChanW

I'm surprised to hear they called ethylene glycol "RV Antifreeze".
I thought all RV antifreeze was inherently propylene glycol, and thus non-toxic.
Guess I didn't do my homework!
Edit: thanks for the link @Sharon_is_SAM. Now I've done my homework. Good to know!

Sharon_is_SAM said:

@Dana - some antifreeze comes blended with ethanol and propylene glycol, so, it is safe for you to combine the two.  Here is a good article about the subject.

https://www.thervgeeks.com/is-rv-antifreeze-toxic/

Mickerly

Ethylene glycol is toxic (poisonous if you prefer) and has a very long shelf life. Propylene glycol is less toxic, primarily because it brakes down comparatively quickly. Please don't confuse "less toxic" with "not toxic". Both chemicals are bad for you. 

Jay1415

Sorry, instead of just posting links, I should have summarized:
-RV antifreeze (prop glycol) expands slightly when it turns to a slush. The slush period is termed burst protection.
-When it freezes, it contracts (compared to the slush period)

ChanW

Interesting @Mickerly. I didn't know about the shelf life... I've been saving my extra for the next year. I'll have to use the refractometer on it. I wonder if that's one of the reasons for the Alde fluid change....

And @Jay1415, I also didn't realize it actually contracts when it freezes. Thanks for the info!

Mickerly

Let me be more clear. Ethelene glycol, when released in the environment, doesn't brake down for decades. Propylene glycol is advertised as "environmentally" friendly and "acceptable" for adults in certain products because brakes down into harmless pieces reasonably fast, about 2 hours inside an adult human. So it is used as a preservative in cosmetics and tobacco products and to keep certain pharmaceuticals in solution. In children, it will stay in the body and mess with their nervous system for a day because of liver development. It is deadly for bacteria, etc. The smaller you are the smaller dose is needed to become really toxic. The extra you have stored in a proper container is not exposed to the environment or being filtered by the liver. It will stay for a couple of years. 

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/ethylene-propylene-glycol/propylene_glycol.html

I believe this started with RV antifreeze for the water system. I drain water and blow everything empty. I don't put in antifreeze because I don't want any residue in the system. If there is no liquid water in the system, there is nothing to freeze. The Alde system will be fine, it was designed for this.

Jay1415

Propylene glycol (in humans) is broken down by alcohol dehydrogenase and then aldehyde dehydrogenase into lactate. (Relatively harmless.) The same two enzymes work on ethylene glycol to make glycoaldehyde and glycolydic acid which are more toxic than the ethylene glycol since it leads to oxylate crystals that severely damage the kidneys. The remedy to ingestion is to give ethanol, which competes with ethylene glycol for the alcohol dehydrogenase. (Less glycol is metabolized and more is excreted.) Sorry to go off on a tangent. My background is biochemistry.

Dana

Well.  Checked the Tab this afternoon and antifreeze in toilet is liquid.  Excellent!  My son topped it off with Splash -50 last week.  That must have helped.  I pulled my cassette and there was some pink around it but don't see any broken pipes. So don't know what that's about. Antifreeze inside that is liquid also. On that note......I have a friend who pulls her cassette for winterization. Anybody else do that?  To prevent cracking, I guess.  Mine seemed fine.  Except for the pink outside of it.

Still going to add the Prestone when it comes for good measure.