First trip with Lithium battery installed in 2021 320

DanSees

I installed 2 Lion Energy U1300 lithium batteries in my 21 320s bd   We are on our first trip. I have a few odd questions I think. First let me explain my situation. I have had the camper plugged in to 30 amp service for the past month after I installed the new battery’s and my v712 showed 100%. I unplugged to pull it out of the garage to prepare for this trip. My VictronConnect app showed 99%. I hooked up to my truck and left it in my driveway overnight plugged into 30 amp service and both the 7 pin and the added Anderson connection for the dc - dc charger connected. The next morning we disconnected the 30 amp and headed on our way. I did not check my VictronConnect app until we were on the road about 1 hour. And when I did the app was reading 65% 13.23 v. We drove a total of 9 hours with a couple of stops for fuel and lunch. The only appliance running was the frig. When we got to our destination I unplugged the camper from the tow vehicle and checked the VictronConnect app. I was at 71%. 13.23 v.   We have been parked now for 2 nights and 1 full day no hookups other than water. No generator and solar has read zero every time I checked it. We have a lot of tree cover. Now for the odd part. Every time I have checked the VictronConnect app my percentage of battery life has increased I am now at 94% 12.25 v. How can this be?  What am I not understanding here?  In addition to this my batteries have a test button that shows percentage of life in 20% increments. I have not checked it prior to just now since I left home at home they each showed 100% now they show 80-99%

Horigan

Some questions.  When plugged into shore power is the battery just being charged by the converter or the DC to DC charger?  If just the converter, is it set to Lithium?  Is the DC to DC charger set up for Lithium?  Also, have you confirmed the polarity of the 712 shunt, i.e., is the battery connected to the battery side and the system negative wire to the load side?  I ask because some of your symptoms sound like the current is going the wrong direction for the 712.

DanSees

Horigan said:

Some questions.  When plugged into shore power is the battery just being charged by the converter or the DC to DC charger?  If just the converter, is it set to Lithium?  Is the DC to DC charger set up for Lithium?  Also, have you confirmed the polarity of the 712 shunt, i.e., is the battery connected to the battery side and the system negative wire to the load side?  I ask because some of your symptoms sound like the current is going the wrong direction for the 712.

When plugged into shore power I am only charging through the converter. 

Both the converter and dc to dc are set for lithium. 

I connected the 712 to the batteries the same way it was connected to the agm battery also per the Victron wiring diagram. But I can double check that easily enough tomorrow 
thanks For the possible solutions  
To add to this I was wondering if outside temp would come into effect. When I pulled the Tab out of the garage it was about 60’ outside. In the morning when traveling and showing 65% it was 34’ outside. My batteries are in the camper but there was no heat on   Since that afternoon it has been low of 55 & high of 75. And now I am showing 98% state of charge. I do know that the batteries are slower below 45-50’ not sure slower is the correct terminology 

pthomas745

The temp wouldn't come into play until it got a lot colder.  You have a Victron solar controller, part of the App is the history pages for the battery.  If you could show us the history screen for the last few days that would be useful.  And, if you made a battery change, we haven't mentioned whether or not the Victron solar controller has been set up for the proper battery type and amp hours, so check that detail out.

DanSees

I setup the victron solar app for lithium. To the best of my knowledge I setup all systems for solar properly 

DanSees

I’m writing with out my contacts in and on my phone. So here goes again 
I setup all systems for lithium and to the best of my knowledge I did it correctly 

pthomas745

On the history...three days ago....the big bar there is showing two things.  The lighter color part of the bar, the battery was in the "bulk" charging state:  The smaller blue part is the "absorption" stage.  That is all good.....

The next two days show no solar input...hopefully..because the battery was fully charged, or the trailer switch off, and there was no battery usage at all. 

If you have been traveling....and getting any charge at all, the Victron isn't showing it.  Check closely on all the wiring at the solar controller.  Look for loose wiring, etc.  It may be necessary to simply reset the controller by carefully loosening the screw on the + input for the battery momentarily and let it start back up.

DanSees

pthomas745 said:

On the history...three days ago....the big bar there is showing two things.  The lighter color part of the bar, the battery was in the "bulk" charging state:  The smaller blue part is the "absorption" stage.  That is all good.....

The next two days show no solar input...hopefully..because the battery was fully charged, or the trailer switch off, and there was no battery usage at all. 

If you have been traveling....and getting any charge at all, the Victron isn't showing it.  Check closely on all the wiring at the solar controller.  Look for loose wiring, etc.  It may be necessary to simply reset the controller by carefully loosening the screw on the + input for the battery momentarily and let it start back up.

Three days ago we were indeed on the road   We have been stationary since in a large pine forest. 

One thing I think I may have done wrong with my wiring. I wired my dc to dc negative directly to my negative terminal on the battery. Everything else negative is wired to the smart shunt. Should the dc to dc negative also go through the smart shunt? If so not sure why this would effect the readings when the dc to dc charger is not being utilized and has no input due to not being connected to the tow vehicle at this time. Thanks for all the suggestions 

techietab

A few threads to pull at:

1.) Did you sync the Victron app to 100% state of charge when the batteries themselves were confirmed at 100% state of charge (via independent test with multimeter?) If not, charge the batteries, isolate the batteries from any loads for 15+ minutes, then check the voltage on each with a multimeter. If they're at their nominal full capacity (per manufacturer settings), reattach your loads to the batteries then sync the Victron status to 100% state of charge.
2.) Do you have a Victron smart shunt? You're always going to get a more reliable read on battery voltage from a Smart Shunt that's sitting in-line on the circuit versus something like a Victron 712 or Smart Battery Sense device when you have loads on the battery array.
3.) The Victron app is usually a little whacky as it 'learns' your battery behavior. In my experience, after you manually sync to 100% state of charge, the Victron app will become more reliable on guesstimating % left after a few charge/discharge cycles.
4.) Because there are so many little variances across LiOn batteries and their onboard management systems, Victron app's guess at % state of charge will never be quite exact, you'll need to keep your battery manufacturer's table for voltage theshold at each respective % handy and learn what % on the Victron app roughly corresponds to the manufacturer's expected % of charge. It's annoying, but an unfortunate reality - Victron can't be expected to have a completely accurate profile for every single brand out there, especially when most of the battery management systems are basically a 'black box', especially on cheaper brands that are using generic and mostly undocumented stuff originating from an unknown Chinese supplier.
5.) Are you using the stock on-board power center (WFCO WF-8735-AD) to charge the batteries on shore power? The auto-sensing model that comes in the 2021 320 models doesn't reliably detect Lithium Ion batteries as advertised and often needs to be 'tricked' into triggering LiOn mode. See this thread I previously posted about WFCO WF-8725 annoyances.  If the charger is not triggering LiOn mode, it will chronically undercharge LiOn batteries.
5.) Are you sure you DC-DC charger is a model that fully isolates the camper batteries from the tow vehicle alternator and starter battery? I'd be surprised if not, but it's worth looking into. Additionally, do you happen to have any other path back into the towing cable harness that might be letting your camper batteries support a parasitic load from the tow vehicle? The latter is most common when *not* using a DC charger and is a potential issue, especially in newer vehicles with 'smart' alternators that vary power output based on information from the engine ECU and onboard tow vehicle electronics (as the 'smart' alternators will lower their output in attempts to increase fuel economy, sometimes allowing for backflow from higher-voltage LiOn batteries in a camper to 'backflow' into the tow vehicle). 

DanSees

1) I was under the assumption that the batteries and victron app did an automatic synchronization. So no I did not do it as you described 
2) I have the victron 712 with a shunt. Is this not the same as a smart shunt?  I honestly don’t know 
3)  will do this when we get back home. Thanks for the tip
4) Understood. Lion Energy is USA made. They claim no Chinese components, but …..
5). I did upgrade the converter to the WF 8735 AD and it did switch to lithium and I have continued to monitor it to verify lithium mode
6) Yes the dc to dc charger does isolate tv alt and battery. It is a victron 12-12-30amp charger 
I believe my alternator is not a smart alternator but it did not verify this. 2008 Toyota FJ Cruiser with an upgraded 130 amp alternator  I do not know how to verify this. 
Without opening up the 7 pin connection on the frame or looking at my wiring diagram I don’t recall if I removed the hot wire from the 7 pin connection to the tv. I did remove the + & - wires from the trailer 7 pin box to the converter.   Do I have another connection that could allow a parasitic drain to the tv? That has been my thought also for the low reading when I left it connected overnight before our trip. I will check this also when we return home. 

techietab

Replies in order:
1.) It tries, but often fails. Sometimes needs help with a reset to 100% when the batteries are full.
2.) Seems I misunderstood the design for the BMV-712 - it does seem like it's only used with a shunt. Disregard my remarks above.
4.) USA assembled maybe, but not totally USA-made. They use Shenzen SuperPower BMS boards (per teardowns I've seen on YouTube). The cells are probably American-made, as they have a purchase agreement with American Battery Factory.
6) A 2008 model is unlikely to have a smart alternator. 

DanSees

techietab said:

Replies in order:
1.) It tries, but often fails. Sometimes needs help with a reset to 100% when the batteries are full.
2.) Seems I misunderstood the design for the BMV-712 - it does seem like it's only used with a shunt. Disregard my remarks above.
4.) USA assembled maybe, but not totally USA-made. They use Shenzen SuperPower BMS boards (per teardowns I've seen on YouTube). The cells are probably American-made, as they have a purchase agreement with American Battery Factory.
6) A 2008 model is unlikely to have a smart alternator. 

Thanks for the reply. I will check into doing the sync when we return home. 

Yea manufacturers claim American made but we all know some buy components from outside the USA 

pthomas745

For the shunts: both the "BMV-712" and the "SmartShunt" is the same basic device.  The 712 includes the display module, which had the Bluetooth transmitter built inside the display.  The "Smartshunt" shoehorns the Bluetooth module right into the shunt itself. 

DanSees

pthomas745 said:

For the shunts: both the "BMV-712" and the "SmartShunt" is the same basic device.  The 712 includes the display module, which had the Bluetooth transmitter built inside the display.  The "Smartshunt" shoehorns the Bluetooth module right into the shunt itself. 

Thank you. That’s what I thought. But I questioning if I was correct. 

  With this being the case, should my dc to dc charger negitve terminal be connected to the shunt or the directly to the battery? Or does it make a difference? 

Marceline

DanSees said:

pthomas745 said:

For the shunts: both the "BMV-712" and the "SmartShunt" is the same basic device.  The 712 includes the display module, which had the Bluetooth transmitter built inside the display.  The "Smartshunt" shoehorns the Bluetooth module right into the shunt itself. 

Thank you. That’s what I thought. But I questioning if I was correct. 

  With this being the case, should my dc to dc charger negitve terminal be connected to the shunt or the directly to the battery? Or does it make a difference? 

My understanding is that if you want the battery monitor to track what is incoming through the DC-DC charger, it should be routed through the BMV-712 shunt.

Sort of similar

DanSees

Marceline said:

DanSees said:

pthomas745 said:

For the shunts: both the "BMV-712" and the "SmartShunt" is the same basic device.  The 712 includes the display module, which had the Bluetooth transmitter built inside the display.  The "Smartshunt" shoehorns the Bluetooth module right into the shunt itself. 

Thank you. That’s what I thought. But I questioning if I was correct. 

  With this being the case, should my dc to dc charger negitve terminal be connected to the shunt or the directly to the battery? Or does it make a difference? 

My understanding is that if you want the battery monitor to track what is incoming through the DC-DC charger, it should be routed through the BMV-712 shunt.

Sort of similar

The dc- dc charger is Bluetooth. I can monitor its function through the victron Orion within the victron connect app

Horigan

DanSees said:

pthomas745 said:

For the shunts: both the "BMV-712" and the "SmartShunt" is the same basic device.  The 712 includes the display module, which had the Bluetooth transmitter built inside the display.  The "Smartshunt" shoehorns the Bluetooth module right into the shunt itself. 

Thank you. That’s what I thought. But I questioning if I was correct. 

  With this being the case, should my dc to dc charger negitve terminal be connected to the shunt or the directly to the battery? Or does it make a difference? 

You want ALL loads/chargers going through the shunt.  I can see how it would get confused if a charger was bypassed around it.