Alde safety Relive vale open or shut to blow out system

jeffinatlga

  I am preparing to winterize my 2006 T@b S Max (using compressor to blow out lines). You tube video (winterizing Debbie's Tab) says open Alde Safety Relieve valve to drain alde heater while Pleasant Valley's "Winterizing a T@b 2016 Models with Alde Heaters" pdf points to a pictrue of the Alde Safety Relieve valve and says "Don't need to use to winterize".

  Does anyone have any advice on this?
Thank you,
Jeff

ScottG

I'm seen the "don't use to winterize" instruction but I remain skeptical as I'm not convinced there is any other reliable way to get the water out of the Alde's HW tank.

Draining the Alde with that yellow valve is the first thing I do when I winterize, and I make sure 2-3 gallons comes out under the trailer when I do it. Unfortunately, there is no other way to visually check the status of the tank.

BrianZ

You need to use it to drain the water heater for storage in freezing conditions.  See SAM's winterizing instructions PDF for "Drain, Blow & Fill.." - They are more concise & easier to follow.  Download here..

http://tab-rv.vanillaforums.com/discussion/5965/how-to-winterize-your-t-b-with-alde-system-easy-to-follow-guidelines-for-the-novice-t-b-owner#latest

I can only guess that Nucamp's photo annotation was referring to winterizing by filling with antifreeze instead of just blowing out, but either way, the valve is needed for draining the heater either way you do it.  The manual provides lots of good information, but unfortunately, there are some areas that are misleading or incorrect.

ColoradoJon

If your trailer is fitted with it's own cold and hot water drain valves, like mine is, you don't need to use the Alde yellow flip valve.  I always leave it closed, just open the other valves and blow out the system. I've never had a problem

ScottG

@ColoradoJon, others have made the same claim in the past, but it eludes me as to how the water gets out of the Alde in this case.

It could drain back through the CW distribution system and out the CW drain, but I believe there is a check valve on the CW supply to the Alde that would impede backflow.

Otherwise it would have to be forced out of the HW side of the tank where it could go out the HW drain, but the HW line exits through the top of the Alde and therefore will not drain by gravity alone.

I'm not doubting you--what you say is consistent with the T@B literature, and I may be missing something here. However, I've yet to get a definitive answer on where that water is going if one is not using the yellow-handled Alde drain.

ericnliz

@ScottG, I have to agree with you as if I remember correctly, you & I had this discussion last year during the "winterizing" season. I tried it both ways & was SHOCKED at how much came out of the hot water reservoir tank when I opened the yellow flip valve. It was at LEAST 2 gallons of water. Myself, I'd tend to be on the cautious side of things & flip the valve open. I KNOW there's a "check valve" in there somewhere, because without pressure in the system, the tank won't drain properly. I had to do mine twice, and the second time I opened the flip valve when there was still pressure in the system, and it drained just fine. The first attempt without pressure, it just dribbled a little. Just trying to relay MY experience with the yellow fippy-doodle!

ScottG

Yes, @ericnliz, we both had a similar issue last year where it did not appear that the Alde tank had drained, and nothing came out even when I opened the yellow valve.

In my case, I had opened the main CW and HW valves first. This makes me think you are right about the system needing to have some pressure in it to get the Alde flow going. In every other situation I've opened the Alde drain first, and the tank empties as expected.

As I suggested in my previous post, it's possible that pressurizing the system with air will force the water in the Alde tank out the HW side. I never got to the point of trying that, since draining the tank via gravity seemed the simpler and more reliable solution.

ColoradoJon

@ScottG - Well, I never use the yellow flip valve and I always drain the hot water using the T@B drain valve.  I then blow out the lines before closing the drain valves.  I always check for hot water in the drain bucket to make sure that the hot water has indeed drained.  Yes, I do heat the water using the Alde on propane, just enough to get it warm enough to verify that it is indeed the hot water tank.  I follow the factory provided winterizing guide verbatim (blowout method).  I have had zero problems to date.

But, as @ericnliz said, it's easy to do and might as well be on the cautious side!  Go ahead and flip that yeller valve if you want to!  Just remember to close it when spring time comes around

I've tested on my trailer and I found that if I drain using the factory T@B valve and then open the yellow flip valve, nothing comes out the yellow flip valve!  I will say that this is how it works on my trailer and I cannot vouch for others as mine is the only system that I am familiar with.  As with everything else, your mileage may vary!

ScottG

Thanks, @ColoradoJon. I've done the same thing re: heating the water a bit to make sure it's actually draining. When you drain into the bucket are getting something on the order of ~3 gallons?

I know I like to say "RDWHAHB" but when it comes to potentially turning my Alde into a giant popsicle maker I let my neuroses get the best of me!  :-)

ColoradoJon

I would guess somewhere just over 2 gallons.  Out of curiosity I took a look at the Alde plumbing last night.  The Alde flip valve is connected to the same pipe that the factory T@B valve is on.  There are a couple of elbows along the way and the total distance is around 24" - 28".  There does not appear to be anything else in the way, such as a check valve.  I'm no expert on this but it looks to me as if both valves serve the exact same function - on my model, at least.

You are right, though - RDWHAHB is not exactly appropriate when dealing with a $4K heating system.  It is a big expense and a huge hassle to replace that thing if something goes horribly wrong

Brew on @ScottG !

Michigan_Mike

I don't doubt either theories but am also on the "flip the yellow pressure relief valve open" band wagon as it works, the Alde drains profusely and I'm able to remove all of the water.  I set my compressor to around 20-25 pounds, blow out the lines, lower the trailer tongue down to its lowest point, raise the tongue up as far as possible, etc. and am able to get the water out of the system and end up with air hissing out if the lines.  

I believe that this process and experiences therein are no doubt different for everyone, but also believe that people need to go with what has worked for them (stick with the process that works!) and to be vigilant in removing water from the system and using the pink RV antifreeze in the gray water tank, sink drain, toilet and shower drain.  The plumbing is a bit forgiving and I guess I don't recall hearing any horror stories regarding damaged pipes, Alde, etc?   

ScottG

That's interesting @ColoradoJon. Mine (2015) has what I've assumed is a check valve between the cold water supply and the Alde inlet. You can see it in the photo below (green arrow) relative to the yellow-handled valve.

If this is not a check valve--or if the valve is not there in some models--than I agree that the yellow valve is redundant for draining purposes. Either way, the facts don't lie--if you're getting that much water and it's warm, it must be coming out of the Alde tank!

ColoradoJon

Hmm.  I will admit that it was difficult for me to see as it was very dark in the trailer with the cover in place and the moon coming up .  I can double check tonight but I don't think mine is any different than yours.

Yeah, I still get a full drain on the tank.  I've even flipped up the yellow valve just to check and no water comes out of it.  I'm not much of a plumbing guy, sorry.

JohnDanielsCPA

I flip up the yellow valve to drain the Alde.  Then I close it and proceed with blowing out the lines.  Other methods described here would work as well.  I just prefer to “drain” as much out, first, before I start blowing the “remaining” water out.  Technically, if the plumbing is installed correctly, you should be able to open your faucet valves, open the low point drains, and everything should drain thoroughly without having to blow out your lines or add anti-freeze.  But I’ve never put that much trust in manufacturers to design their plumbing systems that well.  I will also validate the importance of dropping your hitch all the way to completely drain the fresh water tank.  I was more than a tad bit surprised how much water came out of my fresh water tank when I did this.

ChanW

Ours doesn't have the yellow drain valve, only the hot-line drain valve and the cold-line drain valve.

I do as @JohnDanielsCPA said, drain as much as will drain, then blow the remainder.

I pressurize the system with air at 25-35psi and open every valve individually so the bits of water 'blast' out. I figure the inertia helps propel the water. I drop and raise the tongue a few times as well. (Don't forget the toilet valve!)

I wonder if those are check valves, @ScottG, I've never actually thought there was any need for them. I'll have to see if we have them in our system, since ours is one of the earliest ones, it might be different.

JohnDanielsCPA

@ChanW I thought the yellow valve was a drain valve AND a pressure release valve.  If it is a pressure release valve, you may want to have one installed.  The Alde is, in essence, a boiler which should have a pressure release valve to operate safely.

ScottG

I believe the yellow handled valve functions as a pressure relief for the entire system. T@bbers who forgot to install their pressure regulator have reported water coming out of that valve.

There does appear to be another pressure relief device of some sort at the Alde's HW outlet. You can see it in the photo I posted above--it's the red structure attached to a clear drain tube that exits through the floor adjacent to the Alde.

ChanW

Yes, @JohnDanielsCPA, we have the red basic pressure relief valve that @ScottG mentions.

ScottG

ChanW said:

...
I wonder if those are check valves, @ScottG, I've never actually thought there was any need for them. I'll have to see if we have them in our system, since ours is one of the earliest ones, it might be different.

I'm not sure either, but the certainly look like certain types of check valves (see photo below).

Nor am I sure why they would be necessary, other than to guard against the possibility of the Alde or plumbing being siphoned or otherwise drained when the system isn't pressurized. I'm just guessin' here, though.

ChanW

...
Now you've got my curiosity up. I'm going to have to delve further...

Haloo

First time winterizing our 400 a couple of weeks ago I first drained the fresh water tank, then blew out the lines to the faucets before addressing the Alde.

Soooo....the Alde wasn’t pressurized when I flipped the yellow lever.  When I ran air through the CW opening nothing came out of the Alde until I stopped the air flow.  Then water would gush out.  I had to repeat this a number of times until the water quit gushing from the Alde.  Turn on air, turn off air, water gushes out.

Of course, as an ignorant newby, I didn’t think to measure the amount of water that came out of the Alde.  Now I’m thinking I’ll recheck my work.  And next time I’ll drain the Alde before I blow out all of the other pipes.

Man, am I glad I don’t own a yacht. 

ericnliz

@Haloo, I'm thinkin' you're NOT the only one that has made that mistake ( ), so don't feel bad....it's a learning process & sometimes mistakes are a GOOD thing. As for the yacht comment...look under the definition of boat!