Lithium Fires

Fergie
Fergie Member Posts: 143
in Battery/Electrical & Solar
Just read a disturbing piece (link below) about lithium battery fires. With many in the RV world going to them, plus all the push for electric vehicles, this could be a huge problem. My understanding is that even overcharging a lithium battery could cause a fire, and most lithium charging systems thus have special circuits to prevent overcharging, but what if they fail? Anyone else researched this?

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/03/04/how-do-you-extinguish-a-lithium-battery-fire/

Fergie
 
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Comments

  • webers3
    webers3 Member Posts: 435
    That refers to Lithium Ion batteries, most of the batteries for RV applications are Lithium Iron Phosphate, it's a different chemistry. Lithium Iron Phosphate battery is incombustible when it is mishandled during rapid charges and discharges or when there are short circuit issues. Lithium iron phosphate does not normally experience thermal runaway, as the phosphate cathode will not burn or explode during overcharging or overheating as the battery remains cool. There are many articles that explain the differences.
    2017 T@B 320S   2019 Jeep Cherokee - Southern Connecticut
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  • Mellow_Yellow
    Mellow_Yellow Member Posts: 354
    webers3 said:
    That refers to Lithium Ion batteries, most of the batteries for RV applications are Lithium Iron Phosphate, it's a different chemistry. Lithium Iron Phosphate battery is incombustible when it is mishandled during rapid charges and discharges or when there are short circuit issues. Lithium iron phosphate does not normally experience thermal runaway, as the phosphate cathode will not burn or explode during overcharging or overheating as the battery remains cool. There are many articles that explain the differences.
    Also designated as:  LiFePO4 
    Ref:     https://www.newcastlesys.com/blog/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-iron-batteries
    2014 T@B 320 S "Sunny" - 2015 Toyota Sienna LE - British Columbia, Canada
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  • Marceline
    Marceline Member Posts: 1,748
    When you rely on dodgy websites for information, there’s a good chance that what you find is going to be “disturbing.” 
    San Francisco Bay Area
    2013 CS-S us@gi
    2015 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner Double Cab
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  • Dutch061
    Dutch061 Member Posts: 765
    Marceline said:
    When you rely on dodgy websites for information, there’s a good chance that what you find is going to be “disturbing.” 
    You mean that if it's on the internet it isn't always true?  What amazes me is the number of "educated people" that rely on sources like Facebook (and worse) for their news. 

    Brad
    2020 400 BDL aka "Boonie"
    2022 Black Series HQ19 aka "Cricket"
    2021 F-250 Tremor with PSD aka "Big Blue"
    Concord, NC 
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  • Fergie
    Fergie Member Posts: 143
    The WUWT  website always has open comments and usually good information eventually comes out. In this case, a couple of commenters verified that Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are safer and have a very much higher runaway temperature and are not likely to catch on fire, but don't have the energy density that Lithium Ion batteries do, which is why the electric car industry doesn't use them. It appears that the Lithium Ion batteries are still a fire hazard and the fire departments across the world are struggling to deal with how to put out car fires with vehicles using them.

    As with this website, free and open comments, providing they are civilized, usually get the facts out.

    I appreciate both sites.

    Fergie


     
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  • Tampakayaker
    Tampakayaker Member Posts: 558
    Fergie said:
    The WUWT  website always has open comments and usually good information eventually comes out. In this case, a couple of commenters verified that Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are safer and have a very much higher runaway temperature and are not likely to catch on fire, but don't have the energy density that Lithium Ion batteries do, which is why the electric car industry doesn't use them. It appears that the Lithium Ion batteries are still a fire hazard and the fire departments across the world are struggling to deal with how to put out car fires with vehicles using them.

    As with this website, free and open comments, providing they are civilized, usually get the facts out.

    I appreciate both sites.

    Fergie


    I saw that Tesla was supplying fire departments where the battery disconnects were located on their various models.  This allows the batteries to be isolated from the rest of the vehicle and possible prevent any fires in the rest of the car.  Of course that won't help if the batteries are the problem.

    And most of the disconnects are in spots where the fire department has to cut open parts of the car to get to the disconnect.
    2006 RAM 1500 4 door, 2016 T@B 320 MAX S 
    Tampa FL
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  • Marceline
    Marceline Member Posts: 1,748
    Fergie said:
    The WUWT  website always has open comments and usually good information eventually comes out. In this case, a couple of commenters verified that Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are safer and have a very much higher runaway temperature and are not likely to catch on fire, but don't have the energy density that Lithium Ion batteries do, which is why the electric car industry doesn't use them. It appears that the Lithium Ion batteries are still a fire hazard and the fire departments across the world are struggling to deal with how to put out car fires with vehicles using them.

    As with this website, free and open comments, providing they are civilized, usually get the facts out.

    I appreciate both sites.

    Fergie


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Up_With_That%3F
    San Francisco Bay Area
    2013 CS-S us@gi
    2015 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner Double Cab
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  • Horigan
    Horigan Member Posts: 864
    I suspect the car fire rate is higher on gasoline engine cars than on electric cars.  Electric car fires just get more media coverage.

    The key with lithium battery technology, either type, is to buy from a reputable brand so that you get a robust battery management system as part of the package.  The failure rate of lithium batteries from reputable brands is very low compared to, say, getting in an accident towing a T@b.  We have lithium batteries all around us, including in our purses and pockets.
    Rich
    2019 T@b 400
    2025 Toyota Highlander 2.4L Turbo
    Bellingham WA
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  • jkjenn
    jkjenn Member Posts: 6,417
    Also, the battery banks in cars is huge compared to what would go in a T@b and pretty much every lithium battery you would buy has a mechanism built in to turn it off if it gets too hot. Even my little Goal Zero Sherpa has that built in and it works. 

    2021 T@b 320 Boondock "Mattie Ross" | 2021 T@b Nights: 239 | Total nights in a T@b 455 | 2022 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Overland | T@b owner since 2014

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  • Fergie
    Fergie Member Posts: 143
    I appreciate those who have provided constructive information on this subject. Being unaware that there were two basic types of lithium batteries, I was concerned about the trend toward increased usage on RV's. This is why I asked the question. As with most everyone on this website, in no way was I trying to be either alarmist or political. Again I appreciate any website that allows constructive information to be provided by posters.

    Thank you for those who provided the information I lacked. Also I don't believe there is anyone I know who tows an RV with an all-electric vehicle where valid fire concerns do exist in case of collisions. Our goal here should be to give T@B owners and other RV'er the best information available.

    Peace and Happy Trails!
     
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  • pthomas745
    pthomas745 Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,530
    There are several Tesla owners towing Tabs.

    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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