Battleborn safety issue per Will Prowse?

SLJ · August 30

I watched his videos. Will is correct on one point. An internal loose connection would create arching and heat. Last thing I would want for the bouncing a camper would give it. Would it actually happen in a camper that bounces down the road not drawing full current? Maybe, maybe not. It appears they claim it's a designed in safety cut off feature. I have to call bull crap on their claim. At the minimum It's is a poor choice of materials and design. Not a chance I'd buy one at that price and questionable warranty anyway. There's too many less pricey, quality alternatives.

Mickerly · August 31

I don't have a Battleborn battery.

Is the influencer testing possibly sketchy? Yes. I don't trust any influencers without verifying the information. It would be nice for an independent organization to test as well. A second testing would end this debate.

The Dragonfly side of the story is sketchy as well. The interview is a creampuff filled public announcement. It does not directly address the central issue. Information presented by the CEO was accepted at face value and in general terms without any data or specific details. It is almost topic for topic the same as an earlier press release. The court filing is also very public address oriented. It doesn't say the influencer is wrong, but says he misrepresents the product. These sound like damage control. The CEO's accusation that if there is a problem, it is a DIY improperly installed issue is typical for a corporation trying to misdirect attention. It has to be the customer not using the product correctly. It may be true. Without data to support their claim, it looks more like a misdirection than presentation of factual material. If the data was available, it would have been presented and closed this opening in the debate.

Then we arrive at the question no one is addressing. Why would a company that builds batteries for a high vibration environment like an RV put a plastic washer that melts on a battery terminal to cause arcing that will, through heat and/or ash buildup, disconnect the battery when a simple fuse would be safer and more reliable? Fuses have been around for over a hundred years. Nothing new or hi-tech here. Just your safety.

Perhaps both sides are correct in their own ways. Are most of the issues from DIY installations? Probably. It would not be a surprising result from the data. Is there an issue with a melting plastic washer as a "safety feature"? Probably. I bet the plastic washer cost less than a fuse. They have sold enough units with this design, changing it would admit there was an issue. This makes Dragonfly liable for all past issues that may have been related to this melting washer design. They can't admit to a problem and stay in business.

Stay away from the current and temperature limits and you will probably operate trouble free. At the same time, periodically inspect for loose terminals, hot terminals, and heat damage. This is a free country. Buy what you think is a good & safe product.

EPOD1 · September 1

I am curious of what motivates Will Prose and if the reviews are biased. What I get from all of this is a starting point for research and that includes feedback from all of you.

What Will has done: He has purchased many different batteries and then tested and opened them up in a very invasive and expensive way. I have been using those videos to see what is inside each and how they are made. The first finding that relates to the fire we are all talking about is the brass battery tab that is bolted to the insulated framework inside becoming loose. With DC we have no 60cycles hum as found on AC so the source of vibration is from the rough road. I find that to be an unlikely source to cause a fastener to loosen up. What I did notice is that BB is double nutting the fastener instead of using a Nyloc nut. However a nyloc nut would be affected by heat and may soften and become loose through a heated terminal, so maybe double nutting is better. Even better than that would be to put a belleville washer under the double nut.

Anyway the build of the battle born is more about craftsmanship than the others that obvious use mass production techniques, such as the soldered terminal on the BMS found inside LiTime batteries.

The other manufactures are often putting a dab of RTV on a lot of the fasteners to make sure they don't vibrate free.

The use of pouch cells seem to be the way to the light/high density batteries. I am curious about how safe they are since if the become perforated, they burn.

There is a lot to consider and hopefully we keep this thread going and get more information to make our choices.

I still have my three battle born 100AH batteries in my TAB and plan to get the last one to make four batteries in another month or so. But the LiTime batteries have my interest where I could hugely expand my energy storage in the same compartment.

I need to know a little more about LiTime safety before I put them under my bed. The fail point (terminals) on my BB batteries are all sound, and therefore safe.

valkraider · September 1

I just always try to stay grounded in, "the plural of anecdote is not fact."

People making videos and having a "influencer" social media presence is as much about making money as is RV dealers and Battleborn trying to make money.

It is smart to know the information being discussed about the batteries, how to maintain them, how to watch for issues, etc. That is good information.

But people love conspiracies for a reason. It helps you feel like you are an "insider", like you know something others don't. These things help people feel less powerless.

Always try and pay attention to the state of the electronics in your camper. That is smart, and the right thing to take away from any of this.

Fear and panic are to sell clicks. Enjoy your camper, take care of your friends, and remember we are all in this together.

rydfree · September 1

I am curious of what motivates Will Prose

Most likely the same as any influencer on Youtube , clicks & $$$$. Hyperbole and drama make great clickbait.

pthomas745 · September 1

This has gone far beyond some "money grubbing influencer going for the clicks". Will has a great web presence because of his basic battery reviews, and from the dozens of other solar products and demonstrations he documents. And education on tools, devices, lithium battery life, solar panels, and on and on. I've purchased two batteries based on his reviews, and hundreds of other owners have discovered or learned more about the LiTime, WattCycle, Vatrer, SOk, etc from his many teardowns. I even was able to make my own "milk crate solar generator" from one of his several videos on the subject.

And, a couple of the battery companies I listed above are no longer on his "recommended" list. Wattcycle fell off because he saw the internal components changed after his original review. LiTime dropped off because he felt the batteries were overpriced.

If you go back to his "Diy Solar Forum" threads, the Battleborn issue bubbled up from Forum comments in that group around mid -2024. Will did not need to invent the issue, or produce it on his own. After being shown the "evidence" of the faulty "internal connection" overheating, he was able to duplicate this issue. Other Forum members and Battleborn owners, educated about the issue, reported the same sorts of symptoms: the discolored or loose positive battery terminal, or the various unexplained "battery shut offs" owners were experiencing. Many of these reports from owners are from RV owners, just like us, who are simply using the batteries in the same way Tab owners use their batteries: no massive charging and discharging at high rates, or "pushing" the performance of the battery to the limits. Just "normal" use, over time, seems to be able to cause a battery to overheat.

Just like this group (and the other FB groups, Yahoo discussions, Tag Forums) have brought forward issues with our NuCamp trailers and worked through some serious issues (Alde corrosion, glycol changes, thermostatic mixing valve failures, etc) the information about this battery issue is important.

Knowing what to look for is much more important than trying to figure out if an "influencer" is on the take.

Will Prowse DIY Solar Forum Reports of Battleborn Failures

valkraider · September 1

I purchased a SOk for our last camper based on one of his teardowns. I personally think Battleborn are overpriced for what you get, so If I needed to I probably would not replace with the same brand. I would also probably watch more of his teardown and form opinions, and look at other stuff too.

But the point is not to panic, or to put full stock in anything anyone says - including me. :)

Just learn, and pay attention as best you can.

But always, always, always, consider the source and their motivations.

Simply the statement "has a great web presence" is loaded - because clearly, he is earning money from these things and remember:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

-Upton Sinclair (I think a very valid person to quote in this situation).

It fits for both sides of this "debate".

EPOD1 · September 2

the plural of anecdote is not fact.

Data or "Not data" there is information to glean from images and videos.

I would always tell someone submitting a report of findings that: "Bad data is no data"

I have a question for the most informed on this forum: Who makes the benchmark LiFePO4 battery?

Price is a factor but not part of the requirement.

Thanks

Mickerly · September 2

I think Valkraider is correct. Look at all the information available. Be careful what you believe.

Do I think Will is on to something? Absolutely. By throwing this into a public forum, Dragonfly has only two options. Changing the design is now an admission there is a problem. This makes them liable for the past. With the number of batteries they have sold, the company probably could not survive. The other answer is to fight. That is the road they picked. In their current position, this is the only viable path.

In this case, I think Will may have protected the public better by not going public. Talking to Dragonfly first may have been the better course. They would have the option of changing the design or the specifications without admitting intentional issues with the previous design. If they chose not to listen, then go public. If a fight happens after that, Will would have the defence of going to the manufacturer first and their answer doubling down on this design.

He tested the batteries to the edge of their specifications. They should work. It appears they don't. Although I disagree with a melting plastic washer instead of a fuse, changing the specified charge rate to a lower value would eliminate the issue.

It would be prudent for anyone using their batteries to monitor the terminals and limit the amperage of their charging system. I wouldn't say every one of their batteries is waiting to start a fire. However, it would be prudent to keep an eye on things.

The seed now planted is: "If they took this shortcut, what other shortcuts did they take?"

valkraider · September 2

Who makes the benchmark LiFePO4 battery?

This is really a huge question that I have as well. I mean - there are so many out there now, which one could we really say is the safest, most reliable, most bang for the buck, etc…

limit the amperage of their charging system

Admittedly, I have not done an extensive search - but I am assume this is not hard to set in a Victron, but how about the WFCO?

Mickerly · September 2

Who really makes the Battle Born battery? I don't think we will ever know the true parent company. Dragonfly Energy in Nevada is the exclusive manufacturer of Battle Born batteries. This part is clear. They may be owned/managed by a company called Keystone. Then the trail gets murky. Keystone operates/manages a number of companies in different industries throughout the U.S. Their "home" corporate office is Ft Worth TX; however, there business license is through Delaware. They are listed as a foreign management firm. I can't find which country or a backwards link to Dragonfly except their logos, very small, in the margin on the Dragonfly web site.

For now, it would be safe to say Dragonfly Energy assembles the batteries. Some of the parts are listed as "third party" sourced. Almost all lithium battery cells are manufactured in China. That's also where most of the world's lithium comes from. Most integrated chips are manufactured in the Pacific rim. Assembly from mostly foreign parts should not be a suprise.

Most companies are not self owned.

EPOD1 · September 3

For what it is worth, since the batteries are under our bed, I am adding a dedicated smoke detector next to the possible source of ignition.

I will still keep the "Toast is ready" smoke alarm that comes with the camper.

Battleborn safety issue per Will Prowse?

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