Boondocking at high altitude in the cold

fwillison
fwillison Member Posts: 35
edited December 2016 in Heating/Plumbing & Winterizing
I have a 2017 Tab S Outback.  I would like to do late fall and winter camping in Colorado.  Elevations will be 6500-11,000 feet.  On my first trip, I had problems with running the Alde on propane.  It made a loud vibration and blew black "rich" smoke from the exhaust port on the sidewall.  I understand this is an known problem, but it is a big one as propane is obviously the only method of heat when boon docking.  Also, the mountain west is, no doubt, a very popular destination for Tab campers.
I am also concerned about freezing of water pipes/tanks.  Not sure if heating the cabin will prevent pipes from freezing (I do notice a corrugated plastic underbody cover that may retain a little heat).
Any advice from the experienced?
Fred and Nicole Willison
Tulsa, OK
2017 Tab S Max Outback silver/silver
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Comments

  • Tabaz
    Tabaz Member Posts: 2,421
    Search "Alde freight train" for a discussion on this topic. I've experienced the same problem at higher altitudes. Allegedly, Alde has a kit to remedy this issue. I've been waiting for said kit for many weeks from NuCamp. The lack of response appears to be with Alde and not NuCamp.
    2016 Outback 320
    2024 Ford F150 Supercrew short bed.
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  • fwillison
    fwillison Member Posts: 35
    How did you order the kit?

    Fred and Nicole Willison
    Tulsa, OK
    2017 Tab S Max Outback silver/silver
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  • Nomad
    Nomad Member Posts: 7,209
    You're going to need to winterize your system if below freezing temps. That cover won't do it. There is a thread on heating your tanks. Can't recall the title but search on related terms and you should find it.
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  • Tabaz
    Tabaz Member Posts: 2,421
    Email Ed at NuCamp to request a kit.
    2016 Outback 320
    2024 Ford F150 Supercrew short bed.
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  • DurangoTaB
    DurangoTaB Member Posts: 754
    Or email Scott...they have a solution,

    J.D. & Sue

    Durango, CO    2014/15 S M@xx :  "Dory's HabiT@B"  Keep on swimming...

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  • Tabaz
    Tabaz Member Posts: 2,421
    Durango - what is Scott's solution?
    2016 Outback 320
    2024 Ford F150 Supercrew short bed.
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  • ColoradoJon
    ColoradoJon Member Posts: 415
    I'm curious about this solution as well.  I was under the impression that they were working on something but that it wouldn't be available for a while yet.
    Jon & Angela | Florissant Colorado | 2017 Outback S
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  • DurangoTaB
    DurangoTaB Member Posts: 754
    Scott's solution is to inser/install a second pressure regulator to the Alde, with a bypass, delivering 3 less inches WC but not affecting the fridge or stove...

    J.D. & Sue

    Durango, CO    2014/15 S M@xx :  "Dory's HabiT@B"  Keep on swimming...

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  • ColoradoJon
    ColoradoJon Member Posts: 415
    I see.  Sounds logical.  Thanks!
    Jon & Angela | Florissant Colorado | 2017 Outback S
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  • wizard1880
    wizard1880 Member Posts: 442
    The eventual solution may be a new jet (burner inside the heater) with advanced electronic controls.  Vehicles today with EFI use automatic barometric compensation to keep the fuel mixture correct for the altitude.  When the air gets thin, the fuel mixture must also become lean otherwise you get rough combustion and carbon soot buildup.

    At least, if I worked for Alde, this is the approach I'd take. ;)
    T@@bulous
    2014 T@B CS Maxx
    TV: 2015 Audi Q7 3.0 V6 TDI (diesel)
    Martha Lake, WA
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  • Jellybones11
    Jellybones11 Member Posts: 27
    Hi. I am a NUBE to the Outback. I am at my friend's just outside Durango.  The weather has been pretty warm during the day and cool to cold at night but not freezing....until last night. My heater has been working well, and I set it around 66 and it stayed quite warm, but I stayed in the big house last night and this morning I noticed about a 1" core (looking) of ice on ground and some of that black sooty substance coming out of the exhaust vent. I am pretty sure the tank froze. I have no inside water that will run and did not winterize because I was told that it should be "fine" with the weather being so warm. What I am wondering is if I need to call someone or just wait to see if it gets better throughout the day. My tank was registering about 31% with 0 gray and 8% black. Any help will be appreciated. I would call my RV place in UTAH but they are closed until after the new year. I have an appointment on the 4th for warranty work, but do I need to have it seen before then? The black sooty stuff bothers me?
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  • Verna
    Verna Member Posts: 6,876
    @Jellybones11, first you should read the thread titled “Alde Freight Train” by DurangoTab. It’s very informative for those who Camp at higher altitudes. 

    If you had no fresh water in your fresh water tank, if you had no fresh water in your water lines, and no fresh water in the water heater on the Alde, you’ll be fine. 

    But, if the temps stayed below 32* for more than 2 hours, you may be in trouble with frozen pipes. Check out the winterizing threads in our Resources category for how to winterize. It takes me less than 30 minutes to complete mine. 

    And the block of ice could just be humid air that froze as it hit the colder ground. You will need to investigate and get familiar with the water pipes in the Alde compartment. 
    Verna, Columbus, IN
    2021 T@B 320S  Boondock “The T@B”
    Towed by a white 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 Supercab, 3.5L V6 Ecoboost “The Truck”
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  • Jellybones11
    Jellybones11 Member Posts: 27
    Thanks. I have read some of the threads and am continuing to read more. I had a small amount of water in the tank for travel and using the facilities...but no more than that. The panel shows 31% fresh, 0% gray, and 8% black.  It has warmed up considerably and I am checking on it every few hours. If they are frozen, what is my option?
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  • Jellybones11
    Jellybones11 Member Posts: 27
    BTW, the freight train has been heard....
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  • Verna
    Verna Member Posts: 6,876
    @Jellybones11, if your pipes are frozen......the PEX pipes do have a bit of expansion, but not a lot. If they are frozen solid, it could mean the possibility of burst pipes.

    My advice would be to drain your fresh water tank, move your valves into the winterizing mode, use a small compressor to gently blow out all your lines as the winterizing documents instruct you. Please pour about a quart of pink RV antifreeze down your sink, shower toilet....follow the instructions. 

    Then buy some gallon jugs of water and use them. I was using the toilet, shower and sink on my travels to AZ last week, but I was not using the water pipes nor the fresh water tank.  Navy showers can be cleansing and refreshing if you warm the water up on the stove first.  I was also dumping the tanks every day. The temps I encountered went all the way down to 20*, so I did not dewinterize until I got to Tucson. 

    Yes, I figured you heard the freight train loud and clear ;)
    Verna, Columbus, IN
    2021 T@B 320S  Boondock “The T@B”
    Towed by a white 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 Supercab, 3.5L V6 Ecoboost “The Truck”
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  • 4ncar
    4ncar Member Posts: 1,072
    Wouldn't he heatbfrom the alde heater keep the hot water jacket from freezing? The remaining pipes within the cabinetry should also be warmed by the hydronic lines. Beyond that would be the sink and toilet lines...I think the t@b should survive more then 2 hours below freezing...
    TV- '16 Chevy Colorado LT Crew Cab-DuraMax
    2018 320S Outback
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  • dragonsdofly
    dragonsdofly Member Posts: 1,927
    @4ncar, gate valves and drain plumbing are exposed to the elements, and can freeze relatively quickly. All tanks are below the floor and supply lines to the interior are of small diameter and can be completely exposed. Earlier t@bs don't have the bottom covering that yours does, so I imagine they are subject to the rigors of freezing even more quickly.
    2017 t@b sofitel(Dr@gonsFly)TV 2015 Silverado 2500hd(Behemoth). Wyandotte, Michigan.
    Draco dormiens numquam titilandus.
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  • Verna
    Verna Member Posts: 6,876
    @4ncar, if you check some of the factory tour photos, you’ll see the water pipes at the front of the T@B are next to the outside wall, as are the water pipes under the shower area. With them being so close to the walls and the cold floor, they can freeze very quickly. And always remember that hot water freezes before cold water. That was an expensive lesson for me in my first house. 
    Verna, Columbus, IN
    2021 T@B 320S  Boondock “The T@B”
    Towed by a white 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 Supercab, 3.5L V6 Ecoboost “The Truck”
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  • pthomas745
    pthomas745 Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,529
    Here is Verna's photo in this thread, attached to the second comment down:
    https://tab-rv.vanillaforums.com/discussion/4135/heating-the-water-tank

    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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  • Ratkity
    Ratkity Member Posts: 3,770
    It was in physics class that I learned hot water pipes freeze faster than cold water pipes. Something, something about supercooling. That's all I remember! LOL. 
    2017 820R Retro Toy Hauler from 2015 Tabitha T@B from 2009 Reverse LG Teardrop (but a T@Bluver at heart)
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  • pthomas745
    pthomas745 Administrator, Moderator Posts: 4,529
    Ahh, the good old Mpemba effect...."there is disagreement on exactly what the effect is and under what circumstances it occurs."

    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Mpemba_effect

    2017 Outback
    Towed by 2014 Touareg TDi
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  • ChanW
    ChanW Member Posts: 3,165
    I tried an experiment. I took a short piece of PEX tubing and filled it with water, no air at all, plugged both ends with PEX fittings, and froze it in the freezer (-5°F).
    It didn't burst at all. I'm thinking your PEX pipes themselves could be just fine.
    The one place I've seen weak spots is the fittings - valves, connectors, etc, I've seen seepage at the joints, and they likely can crack. The flush valve in the toilet (I learned is replaceable - grimace), and of course, the sewage tanks' gate valves can freeze and crack.
    Chan  -  near Buffalo NY
    2014 S Maxx
    2011 Tacoma 4cyl ... edit: 2022 Tacoma 6cyl - oh yeah! 

     A_Little_T@b'll_Do_Ya
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  • Verna
    Verna Member Posts: 6,876
    @Ratkity, I was told that hot water is in a “state” of change between solid and steam and that is why it can change so quickly. I do remember some information from high school!
    Verna, Columbus, IN
    2021 T@B 320S  Boondock “The T@B”
    Towed by a white 2019 Ford F-150 4x4 Supercab, 3.5L V6 Ecoboost “The Truck”
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  • TabberJohn
    TabberJohn Member Posts: 588
    Only effective way to support four season T@Bing would be a factory installed package --
    http://tab-rv.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/55073#Comment_55073
    Otherwise there are too many loose ends including the tanks, valve gates, monitoring/automation, and protection while towing.
    On the other hand if you de-winterize and limit your water usage to jugs and a wash tub you can certainly boondock in the winter with Alde heat on propane. Got a toilet? Switch to double doodie bags. Need a hot shower? No you don't. :)
    2015 T@B Max S (White/Silver) -> 2014 Ford Escape 2.0L (turbo, AWD, factory tow)
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  • Jellybones11
    Jellybones11 Member Posts: 27
    TabberJohn & Verna and everyone else, thank you for the info. If I knew the Outback came with an optional all weather package, I would have gotten it for sure as I like to get away which is why I bought this particular T@B. Right now I'm heating the inside with the cabinets open and trying to get them to warm up slowly and hopefully not crack...yikes! Thank you all for your info. It's been very helpful. I will really look into trying to retrofit my Outback with a year around thing. 
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