Lithium-compatible converter

Marceline

I seem to remember someone posting a part number (Progressive?) for a replacement for the WFCO converter that will supply the power required to fully charge lithium batteries but I haven't been able to find it.

Anyone? 

pthomas745

In this thread, Klenger on March 19 mentioned a Progressive converter:

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/8524/electrical/p1

This one:

https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Dynamics-PD9130LV-Lithium-Center/dp/B07D95HRSY

N7SHG_Ham

If you go to the progressive web site, they have a cross reference from many other brands to their replacement models and they do have a line of replacements that are lithium compatible.

dsfdogs

I am still trying to figure this out as well @Marceline. My trailer has a WFCO 35 amp wall mount converter. Progressive Dynamics offers a 40 amp wall mount lithium converter, but neither they nor Creed at NuCamp could tell me if that would be a safe swap based on the wiring in the trailer. I do not understand wiring well enough.
Does anyone know?

Otherwise, Progressive Dynamics suggested the same converter that pthomas linked to above and mount it in the tub (I didn't bother to tell them it wasn't waterproof).

Cbusguy

My 2 cents on the discussion.  Keep in mind that all lithium batterys are built differently,  different chemistrys,  some have built in battery management others don't,  and the battery management systems are of varying quality.   In a nutshell you get what you pay for.   Make sure what ever you buy has a low and high temperature cut off.

My thought on the 12 volt converter and charging a lithium battery.    I have a battleborn in the trailer and it is billed as a drop in replacement.   I didn't bother with changing the stock converter as the battleborn has a very good built in battery management system.   When I am in a campground with AC power I  have little need for the battery.    If it float charges and reached the correct max voltage the BMS will stop charging.    It does as I have watched it on a couple of trips.

Boondocking I have made some changes.  I have setup my solar controller to charge lithium Iron and my DC to DC charge controller from my Tow Vehicle is also set to lithium.  this will ensure I can use full capacity of the battery when boondocking or dry camping.

dsfdog you are correct to be worried about the wiring harness and a heavier lithium charger.    Lithium batterys will take 1c charge,  which in the cases of a 100 amp hour batttery would be 100 amps.    Depending on the charger you chose you could send 40 amps through the stock wiring harness to the battery which would hopefully just blow fuses.   a thought to prevent issues would be to move the lithium charger to a location close to the battery and connect it directly to the battery with a fused appropriately sized cable.   

rbrtm

PD4655LIV

Lithium Converter for WFCO RV Power Centers - 55 Amp    from etrailer

Cbusguy

Interesting interview with Battleborns CEO and Will Prowess.
Too long to view......Dont use the progressive industry charger if most of your time is spent plugged into ac power, with a battleborn,....14:00 in the video.   There are other issues when changing from a 13.8 volt charger to 14.8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI&t=922s

I found it an informative watch....Keep in mind while some of it applies to all lithium Iron batterys all manufactures are different.

webers3

Cbusguy said:

Interesting interview with Battleborns CEO and Will Prowess.
Too long to view......Dont use the progressive industry charger if most of your time is spent plugged into ac power, with a battleborn,....14:00 in the video.   There are other issues when changing from a 13.8 volt charger to 14.8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI&t=922s

I found it an informative watch....Keep in mind while some of it applies to all lithium Iron batterys all manufactures are different.

The CEO contradicted what Hunter of BB told me when I asked if I needed to replace the WFCO8735 converter/charger in my camper to work with the BB. Hunter said I need to replace it but in the interview the CEO says that a converter/charger which floats at 13.4 to 13.8 is fine so why wouldn't my current converter/charger work with BB?  I am CONFUSED!

Tabnero

it will work, however you will only be charged to about 80%

N7SHG_Ham

Patrick from TWD just put out a video on their 400 battery upgrade, added a BB battery and the PD lithium converter and that is the one BB recommend. Seems like some conflicting info being put out there?

Cbusguy

I used my BB last summer without changing to a lithium converter and have been perfectly happy with the results.    Now ask me that same question in 10 year

The manual restates what the CEO said.

The biggest take away is the internal Battery management system will not let you hurt the battery.  and it is safe to charge a low temps at low amperages.

This is part of the issue with forums,   Some of the information is incorrect and gets restated as fact.    Reader beware.

webers3

@Tabnero and @Cbusguy thank you. Last thing I want to do is to swap out the converter. The spaghetti of wires connected to the converter is overwhelming and the new converter may not fit in the same space.  From what you and BB is saying I can use the current converter to charge the BB battery, although it will be charged to only 80%, or I can use another external charger to charge it to 100%?

Cbusguy

@webers3 that is exactly what I did.  Use the stock power center.     

If your trailer has solar change the victron profile to Lithium Iron and it will top it off.     

I recommend an amp meter of some sort.   The crew here really like the victron,  but it is not the only meter available.    It will let you see exactly what your system is doing.  

Please don't take my word on it,  look at the owners manual on the BB website.

Tabnero

the only way to top off the BB battery is to go direct to terminal from solar. even with victron, if you are routed through WFCO power center you only get to 80% on the Battery. WFCO does have a board replacement you can do that will allow full charge of the BB Li battery

Marceline

I really appreciate the information. I don't have a BB, I bought the LiON Energy battery that Costco had on sale a few months ago. But it also has a built-in BMS so I suspect it works the same. I think that for now my plan will be to use a separate Duracell 110v charger/maintainer that has a Lithium option to fully charge it up when possible and see how I do with the WFCO and my solar panel. 

dsfdogs

I loved that interview! I did not swap my WFCO converter, but I have a Noco 7200 that I can set to lithium. I do not have solar. So far, I'm usually plugged in while camping (so I guess it's good I didn't swap converters as it's only in float mode with the stock WFCO). In a conversation with BB and in that interview, I learned the battery needs to be topped off to 100% to balance the cells so I must use the Noco to do that to ensure health of the battery.

Certainly having a lithium converter makes sense to me for it's efficiency, but so important to learn it shouldn't be plugged in all the time!

I was also so glad they talked of the volt drop off from 14.4-14.8 to the float level when unplugged as I thought something was wrong.

I do wish BB had better documentation on the proper care and maintenance of their batteries. 

@Tabnero I did not know WFCO now has a board replacement to work with lithium, do you know if it's a 35 amp?

Spectre9

A lithium battery will actually last the longest if you never charge it to 100%.  Sure, your run-to-zero capacity is also 20% less at 80% but maybe going lithium has already created enough wiggle room that 80% is enough.

you would still want to occasionally hook up a lithium specific charger or let solar hit peak charge (14+ somewhere) to balance the cells, but a few times a year (once a quarter) should be enough for a BMS managed battery bank.

i just got a lithium and decided to just keep WFCO for this reason as I have factory solar as well.

dutsmiller

@Tabnero Are you certain that the Victon charge is routed through the WFCO power center?  My 2020 T@B 400 has the solar option and it seems to charge batteries even when the battery disconnect switch is in the off position.  Typically when we return from a boondock trip, the batteries may be somewhat depleted (they do charge a bit on the drive home), but whenever we get back to pick up the camper (a week or two), the batteries have been topped off by the Victron/Solar.  It would seem possible that the WFCO is only involved when the battery disconnect switch is in the on position, so perhaps you could top off the lithiums via the solar and/or while towing via the trailer wiring.  I'm looking upgrade the batteries this winter, so I can give a more definitive answer once that's completed.  If the WFCO is indeed involved in all cases, I'd then aim to upgrade the controller.  It's just that for our use cases, the batteries are generally recharged via the tow vehicle and/or solar.

Cbusguy

The victron and wfco share the dc power bus,  but are completely unrelated beyond that.    What I have witnessed is much like dutsmiller.    The victron, if set to lithium,  will top the batterys up when the attached panels are in good sun light.

Tabnero

@Dutsmiller. I am not sure how the 400 is wired. in my 2016 Css the issue is WFCO will only charge the batteries set for lead acid. to get that last bit you must bypass the charger converter and go straight to the battery. you can test it by putting voltmeter on battery terminals after the charging system says fully charged.