Feeling a bit overwhelmed - TV for a 400 ?

Kampa2020

The last couple of weeks we have felt excited about the prospect of buying a T@B 400 Boondock (our first camper after being primarily canoe trippers) but realising our 2014 Honda CRV can’t pull a 400 and reading through all these very informative discussions about towing vehicles have left our heads spinning and feeling a bit overwhelmed, and unfortunately a bit less excited.  Although we have committed to the cost of the T@B 400 which is not insignificant, we are less excited about spending large sums of money on a vehicle to tow it (although we realise that this is just as important to realise the quality, and safety, of the experience).  Ideally we would trade in our CRV for a used vehicle, with as little extra funding as possible, that could do the job and be as environmentally friendly as possible (i.e. best gas mileage - here we respect the Safari Alto's philosophy of a green travel trailer). Although it is fairly flat here in Ontario, we would want something that could take us on a cross continent trip and be able to handle the higher slopes in the west.  If anywhere in this forum someone has compiled a table summarising everyone's experience towing the T@B 400, we would appreciate being directed to it.  Just having a table summarising the vehicle, towing specs, fuel economy, and pithy comments on the towing experience all in one place would be so helpful in trying to weave our way through this.

ontheroad

Can't comment on a 400 but having towed our T@g many thousands of miles with what we thought was adequate, we had a 2017 Nissan Murano  (rated 1500 lbs) ...our T@g was 1100 lbs...we quickly learned it loved our Ontario road but the Branson hills it did not...we upgraded to a Nissan Pathfinder ( 6000 lbs) knowing it could handle our future upgrade to a T@b.320...now to get that T@b ordered!..we have a friend who loves his Nissan Frontier for his 400!

Sharon_is_SAM

Here is a thread on towing the 400:  https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/8306/tow-vehicle-for-tab-400/p1

Learn to use the Search function.  Lots of discussions regarding how to choose a TV.  

Ldbake

I hear you. We had already purchased a new t@b 400 and added the brake controller and stabilizing hitch to our grand cherokee. Towed once and realized we need a new TV. Yesterday traded my crv for a denali canyon v6 4wd.  Haven’t towed the t@b yet but are putting the brake controller on the new TV as soon as we can Good luck in your adventures...

Kampa2020

Sharon_is_SAM said:

Here is a thread on towing the 400:  https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/8306/tow-vehicle-for-tab-400/p1

Learn to use the Search function.  Lots of discussions regarding how to choose a TV.  

Oh, I am well aware of the search function. The problem is as you point out, there are lots of discussions to go through.  Thus my question if anyone had organised the information in a table. If I knew that I could construct a table in a post where others could input information then I will be right on it.  Please let me know if this is possible.  It would be an efficient way to concisely store hundreds of responses that would be of immense benefit to new forum participants.

Kampa2020

ontheroad said:

Can't comment on a 400 but having towed our T@g many thousands of miles with what we thought was adequate, we had a 2017 Nissan Murano  (rated 1500 lbs) ...our T@g was 1100 lbs...we quickly learned it loved our Ontario road but the Branson hills it did not...we upgraded to a Nissan Pathfinder ( 6000 lbs) knowing it could handle our future upgrade to a T@b...it goes beautifully...now to get that T@b ordered!..we have a friend who loves his Nissan Frontier for his 400!

Interesting.  Have you heard from others pulling the T@B 400 with a Pathfinder?

johnfconway

K
Interesting.  Have you heard from others pulling the T@B 400 with a Pathfinder?

Nissan Pathfinder and Frontier are built on the same frame. Ours is a 2019 Frontier Pro-4X. Has 4.0L V6, heavy duty (Bilstein) shocks, 15" wheels (higher clearance), etc. We bought it for Gila National Forest Roads. Ended up with towing capacity of 6450 lbs. and tongue weight capacity 630 lbs. It's limited by the Class III receiver, which maxes at 5000 lbs. and 500 lbs. respectively. Has proven to be a nearly perfect match for our 2020 T@B 400 BDL. There is likely a Pathfinder packaged similar to the Frontier Pro-4X that will get the job done well!

ontheroad

@johnfconway...the engine is different I believe...ours is CVT...size wise I think the Frontier is a better match to the 400.

qhumberd

We just got our 400 and my advice would be to get as long a wheelbase TV as you can. It makes the driving with trailer less scary for those with less experience. If you pick a TV that is near the limit for tow capacity and is on an SUV frame, you may find the tail wagging the dog so to speak. We paid for this with our TV by less gas mileage but don’t use it for much other than our trailer. BTW mileage for us with our 5.7 V8 is 13 mpg on a good day.

best wishes, we love ours!
l

Denny16

Mine on a good day, with a V6 mid-size, long wheel base truck is 18mpg.
cheers

schatten

I have a 2018 ToyotaTacoma, 6 cylinder with tow package, brake controller, sumo springs (to avoid backend sag).  It does fine on flat ground but will hit 3500 to 4500 rpm on 3rd gear climbing mountain passes.  12 MPG avg.   As many will say on this board, buy the biggest TV you can.  You can certainly tow just fine with 6 cylinder and there are many on this forum happy with their 6 cylinder TV but it will be more fun with V8.  I am considering used Tundra and Titan for my future TV but not in great rush to replace my current TV.  Love my Tab400. Good luck with your search!

warbler_road

schatten said:

I have a 2018 ToyotaTacoma, 6 cylinder with tow package, brake controller, sumo springs (to avoid backend sag) ...

@schatten, I have the exact same setup. It does make some noise gaining altitude in the Western Virginia hills, but so far so good, and we are well below our tow ratings. I average 15MPG using premium gas.

I just happened to see this encouraging post elsewhere that will interest you, about the horsepower/RPMs of Tacomas.

AirBoss

@Kampa2020
I'm not aware of any such table that compiles the info you're looking for. Hey, maybe a good project to work on during your search! 

FWIW, I spent some time looking until I found a very solid one owner 04'Tahoe Z71 (7400lbs/740lbs). It's just shy of 2X what the T@B 400 runs so it's no challenge.

Prefered SUV over P/U so all the gear is inside the vehicle. Had funds set aside to go thru it and refresh all fluids, hoses, belts, tune up, shocks/springs, etc. Still money ahead in my opinion over making car payments for next several years and insurance. Fuel economy...not so much. The 5.3 liter is very thirsty and passes most everything on the road except a gas station. But...knew that going in. 

Good used vehicles are out there. Take your time...enjoy the search. You'll find what you're looking for. Have fun!

KatieKamper

We have been towing a 320S for several years with a Toyota Highlander, and now want to trade for a new 2021 400. Has anyone towed the 400 with a 2019 Toyota Highlander? It has a 5000 tow rate.

Sharon_is_SAM

@KatieKamper - I searched “Highlander“.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/10912/320-s-or-400-with-toyota-highlander-hybrid

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/81062#Comment_81062

ecstatic

My $0.02?  Get a used Silverado 1500 or Ram 1500.  Others will probably try to tell you that a smaller tow vehicle will be fine but on a 400 i prefer a half ton pickup.

Sharon_is_SAM

Yes, and I know of at least 1 owner who started with a Tacoma and traded for an F-150.  I think the height of the 400 offers a lot more wind resistance relative to the 320 and you will feel that with the less powerful TVs.

Verna

The Tacoma V6 has all the correct specs for towing the 400, but going through the Canadian Rockies last summer was rough. 8 or 9 mpg, barely making it to the top of the mountain before a semi. I was afraid I was going to tear her up. I traded for an F-150 V6 4x4 3.5L Ecoboost, 6 1/2” bed, and the 2015 Tacoma’s trade-in value paid for half the F-150.  

I believe the extra height of the F-150 does help with the increased gas mileage and less wind resistance. It’s also a more comfortable ride. You really have to test drive one to believe it has a car-like ride. I will not be going back to a mid-size truck again. 

Tampakayaker

Remember, you're not just hauling a trailer.

You are also carrying in the trailer or the tow vehicle all of the "necessities, and all their weight adds up pretty quick.  You're better going with more of a TV than one that is borderline.

I would stick with a full sized 4 door pick up, with or without a cap/tonneau cover depending on what you will carry in the bed.

johnfconway

There's some subjectivity involved in taking mid-sized pickups out of the equation. Percent of miles as TV vs. heading to town. Percent of TV times in unforgiving mountains vs. pulling trailer just fine in other terrain. Actual (SWAG) diminution of TV's life when pulling in unforgiving conditions. Cost of well appointed mid-sized TV for USFS road conditions vs. similarly appointed 1/2 ton. It's never easy to weigh all this stuff and more.

Denny16

OK, from what I gather, the Highlander HyBird starts out at 1500lbs and Other models can go to 3500 lbs with the larger V6 engine.  Only the 2019 Toyota Highlander XLE, is rated at 5,000 lbs towing capacity.

As for Mid Size trucks and towing a TaB400, depends on the truck, not all mid size trucks are created equal.  Midsize trucks like the Tacoma were not designed for towing, it is an after thought, they have a SUV style body/ frame construction, so are not true trucks.  Trucks built on a purpose made ladder frame, cab and box are separate units, primary rear wheel drive, with a decent wheel base make good tow vehicles.  Trucks in the class are the Dodge Dakota, Chevy Colorado, Jeep Gladiator, to name a few.  

To base all mid size truck performance on how a a Tacoma performs is in injustice to the capable trucks in this category.

As previously stated,  TV choice should,have the required towing specifications.  Then you need to determine where and how you are going to be towing, is the TV also your primary daily driver, and how much towing vs no towing use of the vehicle.  How much main highway/ turnpike towing vs  back road routes.  How fast you plan to tow.  All these add up to making the correct choice.

That said, the price difference for a good mid size truck and a basic full size truck like the F150 is not very much, and some times the latter is less expensive, depending on the added on extras you get talked into buying.
cheers

m_lewis

We pull our 2019 T@B 400 BDL with a BMW X3, non-FWD version. It has more than adequately served us very well in paved road only situations. I would not feel comfortable in a serious off-road situation. We have done a few hard packed dry dirt roads with no problem.
The little 2.0L 4 cyl turbo makes plenty of power (248 HP), averaging 16 mpg, exactly half what we see without the T@B. The hitch and vehicle are rated at 5000/750 lbs, we added a sway stabilizer and a Curt Echo brake controller. It is a highly maneuverable rig.
I have not once wanted a longer or heavier TV, but do occasionally wish for more storage. As we are still well under GVWR, we may add luggage rack storage. Hopefully, that will also improve aerodynamics, resulting is less drag/turbulence and slightly better economy.

AirBoss

@johnfconway
Great points that must be factored in. If the TV will serve predominately as just a TV (i.e. your other vehicle serves most if not all your other transporation needs), then the equation shifts.

Basically, if you have only one vehicle that must serve all your needs you may be faced with compromising a bit on both sides of the equation, but giving the benefit of the doubt to the TV side of things (for obvious reasons). If on the other hand you have the luxury of owning two vehicles and are happy with the one you use for general purposes, you have the option of concentrating more on the towing aspects during your search. 

If you don't need a P/U for any other reason that towing, consider a full-size SUV. If you have a reocurring need for hauling materials, trips to the dump, and the like, then a full-size P/U is just what the Dr. ordered. And if boondocking and "off-road" experiences is more your style, (sounds like you're leaning that direction) things like ground clearance, 4WD, must be considered. 

Are there a multitude of things to consider? Yes. Take your time...you'll make the decision that's right for you. 

Denny16

In Europe they use mid size and even some times small SUVs for towing trailers that are similar in size and specifications to the TaB400.  But, they have a slightly longer draw-bar, a locking type hitch on the draw-bar, with much lighter tongue weights, and they tow at slower speeds, less than 55mph.  So all this adds up vehicles here that are rated a 3500lbs are 4500 lbs in the EU.
cheers

ecstatic

Denny16 said:

In Europe they use mid size and even some times small SUVs for towing trailers that are similar in size and specifications to the TaB400.  But, they have a slightly longer draw-bar, a locking type hitch on the draw-bar, with much lighter tongue weights, and they tow at slower speeds, less than 55mph.  So all this adds up vehicles here that are rated a 3500lbs are 4500 lbs in the EU.
cheers

Yes, not only that but many of them are diesel.

Denny16

Yes, diesel adds some more torque, but not overall power, which raises the overall tow capacity some, but not always, depends on the vehicle.  They key is the style of locking hitch setup and lighter tongue weights, combined with slower towing speeds (which reduce the amount of required tongue weight for sway control).  

Cheers

N7SHG_Ham

No one in  North America is going to tow at 45, our mode is as fast as possible, so comparing to Europe specs is meaningless.

Owning a RV and moving it down the road is fundamentally not eviro friendly, for that a electric car or a horse and tent

I am in the bigger is better, I know folks have upsized from Tacoma and Ridgeline vehicles because even though on paper they should be OK for a 400, in real life, maybe not so much.

Nothing wrong with towing with 1/2 ton pickups, Ram 1500, Ford F150, etc. Those folks never complain about not enough tow vehicle and honestly MPG is on par with smaller vehicles towing, maybe not when solo, but actually a lot of smaller SUV's get dismal MPG for size, so may not really matter much.

Get something with factory tow package and if newer it may even have an integrated brake controller.

And I have never seen on this forum a table of vehicles.

Michael49

I feel your pain. Traded my '18 CRV for a '19 Ridgeline.

Many will tell you that you need a full sized truck for a 400, but so far we have been happy with the Ridgeline.....and I'm getting 24 mpg when not towing - show me a full sized truck that can do that!! (besides the yet to be released 2020 F150 Hybrid). And I love the locking storage under the bed of the Ridgeline.

We will be full time traveling with our 400 soon - that will be a much better test for the Ridgeline, but for now I'm happy with it. Ask me again in 6 months  

AirBoss

@N7SHG_Ham
Agree, with one exception. 

While it's true if your towing on the interstates, 45mph is not a good idea. Must say though some of my most memorable experiences occur on good ol' two-lane state highways and by-ways and roads like Route 66. 

That's where real America lives, works, and plays. And 45mph (or less) is a requirement and one I enjoy. If I'm leaving SoCal to head to another state, I'm on the interstate at 60mph. But as soon as I can I'm hopping off and 45mph is a welcome change. 

As for the ecology of it all...I'll buy carbon credits if I feel the need. Hey, it works for the rich and famous, why not those of us who make up the great unwashed masses?  

N7SHG_Ham

@AirBoss, I agree on the back roads. Most folks can't go 10 MPH in a CG, so it doesn't make sense that they would like poking along at 45 either, it is hammer down, do as much as possible in limited days for most folks.

Denny16

I was thinking 55 is fast enough on most highways, I was referring to US obsession with going 65-75 mph on an interstate.  This is where you need the heavier tongue weight to trailer weight ratio.  In Calif, a vehicle towing a trailer is restricted to 55mph, which is fast enough of me.  

AirBoss you make a good point about, getting off the freeway/big highways and hitting the old back road routes, like Rte 66, or the old CA 395 up the east side of the state.  When I lived in San Diego, and they just had built the new freeway by-pass for 395, I would take my sports car on the old 395 they by passed, before the Kerry Mesa and Torrey Pines developments, and have the road to myself at 80 mph — grand times.  I still like to take the off the beaten path route 

when ever possible.

N7SHG, nothing wrong with using a full size 1/2-ton truck for towing either, they are great vehicles.  Used to drive 1/2 ton PUs in the 1970s and 1980s, preferred them to regular cars back then, especially for the back roads I had to travel for work.
cheers