New Champion 3500w dual fuel

cottonmouth

Just unpacked filled with oil, and am running it through the 5 hr break-in. My question is about grounding. Do i need to make a neutral bond adapter to plug into one of the generator's 15amp receptacles to make this work with trailer?

Verna

As I understand it, only if your 400 has an EMS built-in system. If you need more info, search for Rzrbug and his post about the plug. 

cottonmouth

I think I just answered my question. Under grounding it says "Electrical devices that require a grounded recepacle pin connection will not function if the receptacle ground pin is not functional, unless the neutral wire is bonded to the frame."

AirBoss

@cottonmouth
Congrats on the new toy. I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this unit as it is one of three or four I've narrowed my search to recently. Also be curious how you narrowed your field and which other gensets you considered but rejected and why.

Appreciate your time and enjoy! 

CrabTab

@cottonmouth. I agree with @Verna's comment. 

This potential problem really only affects you if you have an EMS system installed in your T@B. You stated that the Champion generator isn't grounded. An EMS will pick that up as a fault and not allow electricity into the trailer. 

I went through this scenario vetting out a generator. The neutral bond adapter makes a connection between neutral and ground on the generator. The EMS system will no longer see the ground fault.

As I understand it, in your home electrical system the neutral and ground converge in the panel. Your house electricity can safely flow without a GFCI, just like generator to T@B will work with no EMS.  In this instance the EMS acts like a GFCI in the house. The GFCI is an additional protection device.

cottonmouth

AirBoss said:

@cottonmouth
Congrats on the new toy. I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this unit as it is one of three or four I've narrowed my search to recently. Also be curious how you narrowed your field and which other gensets you considered but rejected and why.

Appreciate your time and enjoy! 

I really only considered this one and the Honda 2200i. It really came down to power and cost. I wanted dual fuel because I don't like carrying the extra gas tanks. An extra propane tank fits in the steel compartment on the T@B. Outfitting the Honda to dual fuel is an extra expense too.  I know folks say a single Honda runs the Coolcat A/C fine, but it seems to be pushing the limits of the generator if not run in parallel with a companion Honda. 

cottonmouth

Thank you Verna and Crabtab. That makes sense. I'll just plug it in and give her a whirl. I use the plug-in progressive industries ems, so no issues there. Thanks!

Homebodyatheart

@cottonmouth thanks for this post! I know at some point I will break down and buy a generator and I’m looking towards dual fuel as I don’t want to deal with gas unless I have to. I like working with propane. 

Question for all. If I buy a dual fuel unit do I ever have to deal with the gas part until I need it? Or do I need to run gas and oil first then only use propane? If using gas I would be storing both in the trailer as I drive a SUV to tow and there’s no tongue space left with the spare up front. Thanks!

AirBoss

@cottonmouth
Thanks for the prompt reply. Debating between a 3500-4500W unit or twin 2200 type units. As you mentioned, like the dual fuel option. 

For sake of my clarity, if I'm using a plug-in EMS I do not need to be concerned about this. Use of the neutral bond adapter only applies to built-in EMS systems.  Correct or all wet?  

cottonmouth

Homebodyatheart said:

@cottonmouth thanks for this post! I know at some point I will break down and buy a generator and I’m looking towards dual fuel as I don’t want to deal with gas unless I have to. I like working with propane. 

Question for all. If I buy a dual fuel unit do I ever have to deal with the gas part until I need it? Or do I need to run gas and oil first then only use propane? If using gas I would be storing both in the trailer as I drive a SUV to tow and there’s no tongue space left with the spare up front. Thanks!

I'm breaking it in on propane. No gas will be put in the tank unless necessary.

CrabTab

You have surmised correctly about the neutral bond plug @AirBoss. Dual fuel intrigues me too. I didn't really see these a year or two ago (maybe I just needed to search better). Question- How're you going to heft that 4500W generator into the Dino-killer? My aging joints would opt for the twins and a parallel link (FWIW). 

AirBoss

@CrabTab
Thanks for the follow up on that. 

Well, I was going to rig up a come-along winch attached to an A-frame that mounts on the bumper...ok...kidding. 

That is what's keeping me from going with this one. That and the fact that it's not dual fuel. I had Cummins Onan onboard genset on my boat and it was a rock solid unit. They do have a good name in the industry. The 3500W Champion looks promising but it's pushing 100lbs as well. 

My knees bark daily and no doubt my back would too if I had to wrestle that beast around. 

Still searching but it's a bit of a challenge to find a 2000W (+/-) genset that's dual fuel, without having to spend even more $$$ on a converstion kit. Did find this one but haven't reserached it much. 

Verna

@AirBoss, seriously, there are small A-frame wenches that pivot over to the rear of the tailgate to lift heavy objects into the bed of your truck. I can’t remember if it was Harbor Freight or Amazon that I saw a few different ones on. 

Tempting for my 37 lb electric assist folding bike, but my method of using different size heavy plastic MTM boxes for camping storage allows me to make a modified stairs to lift it bit by bit into the truck. 

AirBoss

@Verna
Yes, I've seen those and they are very useful. Much like a davit used to hoist a dinghy out of the water onto a boat. Unfortunately the Tahoe is an SUV not a P/U so it would be a bit problematic.  

It seems I may have to choose between larger/heavier dual fuel or smaller/lighter gas only model. 

The search continues...learning something every day!

Denny16

Due to the weight (I have a max weight restriction I can lift), I’m going with the Honda 2200i Companion generator, and if I need more power, I can add the regular 2200i and run them in dual mode.
This breaks up,the weight into two 45-50 lbs packages, and you use only what is needed.  I also like having a backup system on devices like this.
cheers

cottonmouth

CrabTab said:

You have surmised correctly about the neutral bond plug @AirBoss. Dual fuel intrigues me too. I didn't really see these a year or two ago (maybe I just needed to search better). Question- How're you going to heft that 4500W generator into the Dino-killer? My aging joints would opt for the twins and a parallel link (FWIW). 

It has two sturdy handles on top. I can handle it by myself for now (I'm 56 and no bionic parts yet), but with two people it would be very easy to load or unload. If it gets to be too much, I'll have to look for something different, but that's a little ways down the road, Lord willing!

JCALD

We have one and it works really well.  We both lift it int our Ranger bed.  One thing I like is that it fits under our aluminum bed cover,

cottonmouth

AirBoss said:

@cottonmouth
Thanks for the prompt reply. Debating between a 3500-4500W unit or twin 2200 type units. As you mentioned, like the dual fuel option. 

For sake of my clarity, if I'm using a plug-in EMS I do not need to be concerned about this. Use of the neutral bond adapter only applies to built-in EMS systems.  Correct or all wet?  

Just saw this. I use the plug-in EMS also. There is no issue with the grounding. I plugged directly into the 30amp receptacle on the generator. Since it's also an inverter, the power should be clean, so no need for the EMS. Everything works fine. Someone more knowledgeable may correct me, but I haven't blown anything up yet!

N7SHG_Ham

@Denny16 exactly what I did with conversion to propane only. At this point just have the companion model, but can always get that second one later.

AirBoss

Guess I'm wondering why one would spend over $1000 on a 2000W Honda plus $250 on propane conversion and then another $1100 on second parallel Honda. 

I get that Honda has good street cred but thats close to $2500 for 4000W or about $0.62/watt vs. $1100 for a 3500W Champion or $0.31/watt. 

Is the Honda worth twice the price per watt? 

N7SHG_Ham

@AirBoss, same reason you have a NuCamp product instead of some low end camper. They both get the job done

Denny16

And the new Honda is an actual 2200  watt generator, not 2000 watts, so the two make up a 4500 watt unit.  Yes it costs more, but you get what you pay for.
cheers

TNOutback

@AirBoss I asked the same question, and though I wanted the red or blue name brand, logic overruled and I went with the Yamaha knock-off at less than half the price. Consumer Reports had an interesting comparison between the Honda and the Harbor Freight generators, saying they picked the Honda by a narrow margin, but if the Harbor Freight had a warranty equal to the Honda, they would have picked it instead.  That review made me move back to the cheaper Wen, and buying it through Home Depot, I paid for their 3 year extended warranty coverage, still paying half of the Honda’s price.

N7SHG_Ham

@Denny16 the Honda also has around a 50% larger displacement engine than the Champion and I believe a number of other brands. Recent discussion here about a Champion not being able to start and run an AC. It isn't the first discussion where it has been pointed out that not all 2kw class of generators are created equal. You get what you pay for, sometimes less and hardly ever more.

AirBoss

@N7SHG_Ham
Oh, I get that, no question. Though I'd note that we're talking a single "system" here and not the entire vehicle and no, I'd never consider a teardrop at half the price of the 400 (nor one at double the price for that matter)! Caveat Emptor...

Many of you folks out there have done more research than I have on this at this point (though it's becoming a daily task I might add), so the feedback is appreciated. 

Size does matter as you stated. 121cc's vs. 80cc' (+/-)  is bound to make a difference. And Honda has the reputation. Years ago I owned a 3000W Honda and while it was a boat anchor, it was reliable and quiet. 

I'm still in the due dilgence phase but I'm leaning towards the dual fuel side of the house. And if that's the main driver, it seems a propane converstion kit is likely in order. So far, found very few strong candidates to choose from in the 2200@ range that are factory built dual fuel.  

And is it true that converting say, a 2200W unit means it's exclusively propane at that point? There's no "dual fuel" capability if you "convert" gas unit vs. a factory dual fuel unit? 

@TNOutback
I read that very same Consumer Reports article about Honda vs. Predator, which fueled my debate about $$$/Watt. Did you pick up this model? Whichever one it was, seems you're very happy with it to date? Good bang for the buck I take it!

The search continues...thanks all. 

cottonmouth

This has digressed a little; we may not be talking about the 3500w dual fuel champion any longer. I just want to point out it has a 192cc engine. The Honda 3000i, which is more comparable, has a 163cc engine. 

johnfconway

Interesting that many aspects of same discussion are spread out over at least 4 threads. Forum information and opinions contributed heavily to key criteria in "which generator is best for our needs" decision making process. I'm the last person to jump on the high end product bandwagon.

In our case propane was tantamount. We're in the nearby (like <2 miles) Gila National Forest a lot. Do not want to be the careless camper who got the Donkey Ridge Fire going. What forced the Honda eu2200i was its height. All others were too tall for under tonneau cover. Once trailer is set up on side of arterial Forest Road, truck and generator are gone for the day at nearby trailhead. Still some risk of theft. But it's as minimal as we're going to get it. Also recognize that within 6 months there will likely be a 2200i unit that meets criteria at half the cost.

There was no way we were going to spend another $1500 to run 2nd Honda in tandem. The Wen DF475T dual fuel is more than adequate to run house needs in an emergency at less than 1/3 the cost of a second Honda.

AirBoss

cottonmouth said:

This has digressed a little; we may not be talking about the 3500w dual fuel champion any longer. I just want to point out it has a 192cc engine. The Honda 3000i, which is more comparable, has a 163cc engine. 

That's my bad...I hijacked the thread a bit. I, for one, would be very interested in your thoughts after break in. PM me if you're so inclined. Thanks and apologies. 

TNOutback

@AirBoss it is the 2250W model; not used it much, but no complaints thus far.  It is an interesting decision to make, the case for a single 3500W that weights about 100 lbs, or two separate ~2000W units in parallel, that would be more manageable but ultimately more expensive.  No way I can lift a 100 lb bulky generator into my truck, which would then necessitate me always carrying a set of ramps to load/unload.