hybrid suv to tow a 320

Denny16

The only difference between a standard TaB320 and the Boondock edition is a few pounds of added weight and a higher ground clearance, which raises the front height of the trailer up, and possibly add a bit of additional frontal surface drag.  If the SUV can tow a standard 320, it should have no issue with a Boondock 320.  

With our TaB400, which started out as a standard model, then we converted it to a Boondock by adding the new axle and wheels, the added height did cut about 2 mpg from our average towing mileage per gallon, going from 16/18 to 16/14 mpg when towing. 

Cheers 

Pmullally

Darrylagreen said:

We have a Highlander Hybrid V4 2022. We are looking to buy a 320. New? Used? How much difference is there in pulling a Boondock? This will be our first camper experience. We are in N. California. Welcome any advice.

I am considering purchasing a Highlander hybrid for our 2021 T@b 320 boondock. I now drive a 2016 tacoma and already started the process of trading it in. My one concern is the hitch wait on the highlanders back end and was curious if owners experience any “squat” in the back. I don’t want to get into a weight distribution system. 
I hope to read any responses to your thread.

Horigan

I think with a 320 you should be fine on any squat concerns.  Note that the Highlander manual (at least for the 2013) states that "sway control" is required when towing over 2000 lbs.  I haven't done that for my 400 yet and I haven't had any sway issues, likely due in part due to the high tongue weight of our 400.  Just something to be aware of.

CharlieRN

I've has a reservation for a Rivian R1S in place for some time (nearly 3 years!), and follow the issue of towing and EV range quite closely. As others have indicated, the overwhelming majority of range loss while towing is due to aerodynamic issues, with weight playing a minor role. Rivian's own towing test of an 11,000 lb box trailer with the R1T pickup (essentially identical to the R1S, but with a longer truck body & wheelbase), resulted in a 50% range loss. The range loss in towing the smaller, far lighter and somewhat streamlined T@B 320 with the R1T was disappointingly (for me anyway), just a tad better.

I would expect to do somewhat better with the Rivian SUV because of marginally better aerodynamics, so perhaps the range loss will only be a bit under 40%. I'll spare folks the tedious EV range assumptions and calculations, but that relatively modest 40% hit will still mean stopping to recharge about every 130 miles with the R1S. That's much less than the R1S max range of 321 miles, and is a fair bit more frequently than we now stop for either refueling or a bio break when towing with our Telluride. Still, that may be tolerable.

To add some detail, we experience about a 30% range hit when towing with the Telluride, with highway mileage dropping to 16-17 mpg range. With about 16.8 gals of effective fuel capacity (nominal is 18.8 US gal), that means perhaps 270 miles before the low fuel light. In theory then, we could drive for nearly 5 hours at highway speeds without stopping to refuel. In practice, we'd prefer not to risk pulling in on fumes and anyway, neither our, nor our dog's bladders allow us much more than three or so hours. The big difference is that there are something like 115,000 gas stations located nearly everywhere that we can refuel at. By contrast, the 50,000 EV charging stations are concentrated on the coasts and there are large areas of the country that have few or none.

Mazda is introducing a new hybrid that uses a very small gas-powered Wankel (rotary) engine connected to an electrical generator. The gas engine does not drive the wheels as is the case with conventional hybrids and the engine/generator combination package is said to weigh only about 250 lbs.

For those not familiar with the rotary engine, it uses the same four-cycle internal combustion principles as conventional engines but has only a handful of moving parts. Their drawbacks are durability and poor fuel economy but this engine is quite small, spins at a constant rpm and uses newly developed ceramic seals that are said to be highly durable. Mazda has quite a bit of expertise with the rotary and sold sports cars here in the US with that engine for quite a few years.

In any event, the Mazda arrangement allows the car to use a much smaller and lighter battery pack, with the generator extending the range to that of comparable ICE vehicles. It's not clear that this concept will be successful, but it's interesting and could be a technology bridge until the charging infrastructure gets built out. Right now, it's only for the CX-30, a small SUV with limited towing capacity, and only on non-US models.

Edit: correct typo, added comment

Dbremmer

Thank You CharlieRN for interesting and useful information about EV range loss while towing.  I suppose that aerodynamics dominates because highway travel on a trip involves nearly constant speed, avoiding acceleration/deceleration energy usage.  It is mostly expending energy on rolling resistance and drag.  Uphill/downhill should be a wash unless you have a mostly all uphill trip.    Increasing EV options are promised. I am watching.  With rapid charge capabilities and promised infrastructure build out, EV towing may soon become attractive.

Good2go

UPDATE: Just adding some additional info to update my earlier comment regarding towing a '22 320 Boondock with a 21 Highlander hybrid.  Just completed a 7400 mile month long adventure from NH to Idaho and back.  The average gas mileage for the entire trip came out to 20MPG - that includes approx. 500 miles driving around without the trailer. I also had a Jack-It bike rack on the trailer with two 40 lb. bikes, and a Yakima cargo box on the vehicle, so I hit the max tongue weight of 350 lbs. When traveling on flat interstates, the car maintained a comfortable 70 MPH with no sway or issues - I do not use a WDH or a sway bar.  The only downside to the hybrid is some noticeable lack of power in only the worst circumstances i.e. very long climbs up some of those steep grades in Montana, when slowing to 45-50 seemed like the appropriate thing to do. The worst gas mileage while towing was 15.5 and the best was 23. Overall I was pleased with the performance of both the trailer and the hybrid TV.

GregChris

We tow a 2021 320s bd with a 2019 Highlander V6, non hybrid. We also have Jackit with 2 30lb bikes. My wife likes to take everything including the kitchen sink. MPG ave 16. Best 18.5, worst 14. There is no squat, even completely loaded, no sway either. I am wondering about towing with a 2023 hybrid, or the non hybrid Highlander, they are about 50hp short of the 2019 v6.

Flybone89

I can also add some real world experience to those asking earlier in this thread about towing with an EV. We just completed a 400+ mile trip with our Tesla Model Y towing our 2022 T@B 320 S Boondock. The range impact was less than expected - 40% reduction rather than an expected 50%. We averaged about 500 Wh/mi with a highway speed of 60 mph (most of the trip was interstate). This compares to a 1000 mile trip I took the week before without the trailer where I averaged 280 Wh/mi. On flat roads with a 4-5 mph tailwind I even got lower consumption of 450-480 Wh/mi.

Based on my experience so far, I plan for a usable "safe" range (assuming a charge curve of 10%-90%) of 120 miles. This is stopping every 2 hours, which is actually what we used to do before in our ICE tow vehicle which was every 1.5-2 hours. We like to stop and stretch a lot and usually end the day after just 3-4 hours to stay overnight - where we can also charge at most campgrounds. So this means just 2 charging stops per day. And there are plenty of charging options within 2 hours these days, so I don't think range will be an issue.

What will be an issue - at least for now - is where to stop. I have to do extra planning to make sure I plan charging stops that are trailer friendly (pull in or pull through spots). We stopped at 4 different Tesla superchargers on our trip - all of them had only one pull-in spot - and every time we stopped there was someone using the pull-in spot even though back-in spots were open. Three out of four people were willing to move to let us pull-in, but one was abandoned so I had to pull along side since the spots were empty. Yes, all back-in spots were empty, yet they used the one pull-in spot. I will avoid the rant here but if there are any Tesla owners reading this - please spread the word to other Tesla owners who don't tow not use the pull-in spots unless they have something on their hitch or it's the last one open.

The towing experience itself was amazing - keep in mind a Tesla Model Y has almost 400 lb/ft of torque so the T@B was barely noticeable. For the first time I had no concerns merging with a trailer! Most of the range impact is drag rather than weight, so ironically having a boondock with the higher height is more of a negative. I plan to replace the tires at some point with less aggressive tread / size to lower it some.

Overall, I am very happy towing with an EV and happy to answer any questions. I should point out this is our second Tesla and my wife just purchased a Volvo XC40 Recharge - so we already have experience with EV's on roadtrips, so the new variable was just the towing.

Kevin

Slackers

Which adapters did/do you use to charge your Y at non-Tesla chargers?

Flybone89

Slackers said:

Which adapters did/do you use to charge your Y at non-Tesla chargers?

I use a CCS adapter for non-Tesla DV fast chargers, but it is only temporary as most chargers and cars will eventually change to the NACS standard (Tesla adapter).

I also have a 14-50 amp, TT-30 amp, 5-15 amp adapters for the Tesla mobile charger for campsites - so I can pretty much charge anywhere I can find a plug!

Here is the CCS adapter I use for non-Tesla DC fast chargers (Electrify America, EVGo, etc.): https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter?web=true

Here is the TT-30 amp adapter which is for campsites with 30 amp hookups: https://www.evseadapters.com/shop/en/adapters-for-tesla-model-3-model-y-model-s-model-x-gen-2/20-tt-30-adapter-for-tesla-model-sx3y-gen-2.html

Kevin

Slackers

Thanks @Flybone89 for the report and the links.

Dbremmer

Thank you @Flybone89.   Your shared Model Y experience provides an encouraging data point.  I currently have a Tesla Model 3 extended range that could possibly tow my T@B 320 if I were to add a hitch.
These EVs are heavy with the battery packs so there should NOT be  "Tail wagging the dog" towing issues where hitch load reactions cause unscheduled lane changes.  Future SUV EVs offer more opportunities.

mash2

It doesn't appear that you can hook up a 7 pin plug on a 2025 Toyota rav4 plug in hybrid (SE) because there is no alternator.  Is this true?

elbolillo

mash2 said:

It doesn't appear that you can hook up a 7 pin plug on a 2025 Toyota rav4 plug in hybrid (SE) because there is no alternator.  Is this true?

The RAV4 prime or plug in hybrid has a 2500lb towing capacity. Not really a vehicle for towing a Tab 320.

And yes, you can wire the Rav with a 7-pin connector.

The three motor generators (MG1, MG2, and MG3) are both alternators and motors. There is no dedicated alternator.

Bill&Suze

Flybone89 said:

I can also add some real world experience to those asking earlier in this thread about towing with an EV. We just completed a 400+ mile trip with our Tesla Model Y towing our 2022 T@B 320 S Boondock. The range impact was less than expected - 40% reduction rather than an expected 50%. We averaged about 500 Wh/mi with a highway speed of 60 mph (most of the trip was interstate). This compares to a 1000 mile trip I took the week before without the trailer where I averaged 280 Wh/mi. On flat roads with a 4-5 mph tailwind I even got lower consumption of 450-480 Wh/mi.

Based on my experience so far, I plan for a usable "safe" range (assuming a charge curve of 10%-90%) of 120 miles. This is stopping every 2 hours, which is actually what we used to do before in our ICE tow vehicle which was every 1.5-2 hours. We like to stop and stretch a lot and usually end the day after just 3-4 hours to stay overnight - where we can also charge at most campgrounds. So this means just 2 charging stops per day. And there are plenty of charging options within 2 hours these days, so I don't think range will be an issue.

What will be an issue - at least for now - is where to stop. I have to do extra planning to make sure I plan charging stops that are trailer friendly (pull in or pull through spots). We stopped at 4 different Tesla superchargers on our trip - all of them had only one pull-in spot - and every time we stopped there was someone using the pull-in spot even though back-in spots were open. Three out of four people were willing to move to let us pull-in, but one was abandoned so I had to pull along side since the spots were empty. Yes, all back-in spots were empty, yet they used the one pull-in spot. I will avoid the rant here but if there are any Tesla owners reading this - please spread the word to other Tesla owners who don't tow not use the pull-in spots unless they have something on their hitch or it's the last one open.

The towing experience itself was amazing - keep in mind a Tesla Model Y has almost 400 lb/ft of torque so the T@B was barely noticeable. For the first time I had no concerns merging with a trailer! Most of the range impact is drag rather than weight, so ironically having a boondock with the higher height is more of a negative. I plan to replace the tires at some point with less aggressive tread / size to lower it some.

Overall, I am very happy towing with an EV and happy to answer any questions. I should point out this is our second Tesla and my wife just purchased a Volvo XC40 Recharge - so we already have experience with EV's on roadtrips, so the new variable was just the towing.

Kevin

I'm pleased to read of another EV driver already towing a T@B. We have a Kia EV9 Land trim that we use to pull a T@B 400 Boondock. The car has a 98kWh battery, towing capacity of 5,000 lb., has 379 HP and 516 lb.-ft. of torque and tows the 400 with plenty of power, minimal squat and hardly any sway with stiff crosswinds. Unlike @Flybone89's experience, at 60 mph our range efficiency was about 1.3 mi/kWh which translates to a Tesla equivalent of about 769 Wh/mi. This probably reflects the difference between towing our T@B 400 vs his 320s, the 400 being heavier and taller.

We have done about 4 or 5 trips after buying the T@B in early July and found that efficiency is cut in half and our safe range is around 100-110 miles between charges, traveling at 60 mph. Weather and wind are factors that can cut that a bit. The charging map is slowly but constantly being filled in and we've had no trouble being able to charge when needed. We choose campgrounds with 30 and 50 amp service and are able to use a portable Level 2 charger to connect to 50 amp to charge overnight. There are some campgrounds that don't have sufficient electric infrastructure to support this but by and large we find that most are robust enough. Some have even anticipated EV campers using their campgrounds and now charge a modest fee like $15 - $25 to charge. After a day of driving involving 3-4 charging stops it's nice to get in a free or very inexpensive full charge overnight.

I bought and installed a versatile Tekonsha Prodigy RF brake controller that is mounted on the camper tongue frame. The camper wiring plugs into one end of the controller unit and the unit's wiring cable then plugs into the Kia's 7-pin outlet. A bluetooth handheld control plugs into a standard 12V cigarette port in the car's dash and communicates wirelessly with the control box on the camper. The handheld device allows for setting gain (camper braking power) and has more forceful override settings for harder braking if needed. So far the unit has functioned very well. One nice aspect is that any tow vehicle can tow the camper as long as the driver has the handheld control which can be synced to the required gain setting for that vehicle. My son has used our 400 for several trips towing with his Rivian and found that his safe range is around 120-130 miles. He has the quad motor R1T with the 135 kWh battery.

I think, based on anecdotes added throughout this thread, that using an EV as a tow vehicle is certainly doable. Yes, you won't have the range possible with an ICE TV and there are definitely areas of the country where you can't yet get into or through, but that will almost certainly be improving, in spite of conservatives' antipathy toward electric mobility and clean power. The horse is out of the barn in that respect. Foreign EV manufacturers have opened plants in the US, as have foreign high power charger manufacturers. As long as existing and new charging entities, including Tesla, continue upgrading and expanding their charging networks, EV travel and EV camping will become more popular. In January Tesla will open its network to Hyundai and Kia EV owners, as it already has for GM, Ford, Rivian, Stellantis and Nissan (did I miss any?) and recently Rivian announced plans to slowly open its network to non-Rivian EVs. This will be a game changer for any EV owner's camping opportunities, especially given Tesla's trailer friendly sites. The 2025 camping season will improve upon 2024's in terms of more possible destinations.

CatDaddy

CharlieRN said:

I hope to be able to transition to a BEV for towing our 320 BD in the not-too-distant future. As you correctly point out, range is a key element since towing will adversely impact that. At present, the only BEV with a range of over 500 miles is the Lucid Air, but that of course cannot tow. In the very near future, early 2022 however, the Rivian R1T Max pickup will start delivering and that vehicle will have a nominal range of 415 miles.

Rivian has only released limited data on the R1T's performance while towing, and that indicates a reduction in range of 50%. The was however at the R1T's max towing capacity of 11,000 pounds while hauling a twin-axle box trailer.

The R1T in the Long Range (314 mi) version just started being delivered to customers this month, and more data related to towing should be available in the near future. We can speculate in the meantime that a light, more aerodynamic load like a T@B 320 will have less impact. Obviously, the difficulty is in coming up with a more accurate figure. For planning purposes, I've been using a 30% reduction, simply because that's the mileage impact I see on my ICE vehicle.

As I'm sure you're aware, you only occasionally charge a BEV to 100%, and except in an emergency, do not discharge fully. For most trips, you will be observing 80/20 SOC parameters. Using the 30% decrement for the R1T Max (est at 415 mi - Rivian hasn't yet completed EPA testing on this model), this makes effective range on the order of 250 miles (332 miles @80% SOC less 82 miles reserve). This is roughly similar to the range of ICE vehicle when towing. It's probably not enough for an EV at this point however, for a few reasons.

One is that 250 miles is calculated and will likely be less in hot, cold or windy conditions. The other is that at present, the charging network is not built out enough and there are more than a few places in North America where the distance to next fast charger is greater than the range you have. While only greater battery capacity will fix the first issue, the charging network is being rapidly built up and will skyrocket if the US passes an infrastructure bill. Of course, if travel time is not an issue, the charging network is less important, as you could check into a hotel and plug in to 110VAC overnight there (assuming the hotel's OK with that).

In the interest of full disclosure, let me state that I have a pre-order in for a Rivian. At present, the order is configured for an R1T Max but there is a chance I will change to the R1S, the SUV version (Rivian allows you do this without penalty however). The downside to the SUV is that it has less towing capacity (7,500 lbs) and the Max may have less range (Rivan hasn't yet announced range or availability.)

In either case, even though my order was made 18 months ago, the vehicle won't be delivered until at least 2023 (likely 2024 for the R1S Max). The advantage to the delay however is that it will allow the charging network to be built out. When you think about it, that is really more of a limiting factor than range. We don't really worry about range with our ICE vehicles because there's nearly always a fuel stop you can get to. Range will be much less of an issue for BEV's when that's the case.

I am towing my new-to-me T@B 320S BD with my 2023 VW ID.4 AWD Pro S Plus. I have posted a few times about my limited experience but the short summary is that I'm getting approximately 60% of the range I would have gotten without the trailer. I am considering the purchase of tires with lower rolling resistance to see if I can get a few more miles than that. Even so, my range is something like 125 miles which isn't great. My ID.4 has plenty of horsepower and torque to handle the 320S BD.

On a roadtrip to Boise last summer, I spoke with a guy that was towing his Airstream Classic with a 1st Gen Rivian 4 motor. He said he was getting about 100 mile range.

I agree that the charging infrastructure isn't built out enough yet. Here in Oregon, there are lots of places I cannot go with the trailer, put another way, there are many places I can go, but I can't get back from. The charging infrastructure on the major highways is okay, but the coast is terrible.

CatDaddy

yardsale said:

What does ICE mean?  

Old thread but ICE stands for "Internal Combustion Engine". Is that EV drivers use to mean a diesel or gas powered car. When a diesel or gas car parks in an EV-only charging spot, we call it being "ICEd".