New lithium phosphate battery question

rmcarthur

I have a 2016 T@b 320cs. I just purchased a LifePo 100 amph lithium phosphate battery with battery management system. Is it acceptable to initially charge the battery on shore power (and turn off everything else in the T@b while doing so)?

pthomas745

If your battery switch is off, the battery will not charge.  (If you have a battery switch in the trailer).

There is nothing "wrong" with just leaving the trailer switch on and letting the trailer charge the battery.

The WFCO in your trailer will only bring the lithium up to about 85 percent or so, which is normal (unless you have changed out the older converter).  If you have a portable solar panel, a proper lithium ready solar controller can completely charge the battery.  If you have a lithium ready "smart" charger that you can connect to the battery, it will completely charge it.

I have a lithium in my 2017.  The trailer has been plugged in maybe twice since I installed it 18 months ago.  My solar panel keeps the battery charged.

rmcarthur

Thank you for the input. I do have a 140 watt Zamp solar with a controller. That should top off the battery to 100% charge after using the shore power. Should I shut off the fridge?

pthomas745

Turning it off will charge your battery a bit quicker.  What are you using to monitor your battery?

The question for your Zamp controller: does it have a lithium charging profile?   If not, it will behave pretty much like the converter in the trailer: you may only get to an 85 percent charge.  So, find that out about your solar controller.

Horigan

Note that older Zamp controllers do not have a Li charging profile.  Don't know about the newer ones.  The settings are changed via DIP switches.

rmcarthur

Yes, the Zamp has a LifePo setting on it (bought it in 2020). Is it ok to charge with the solar while also connected to shore power? Thanks again.

pthomas745

Yes.  The solar may not see the need to start charging until the WFCO reaches its limit.  This is where a method of monitoring the battery can be useful.  Most likely you will be able to check the readout on the Zamp controller that should tell you what it is sending to the battery.

rmcarthur

One last question: will my Honda 2200 generator be able to fully charge the battery, or will it charge at the same level as shore power?

AnOldUR

Plugging into a generator is the same as shore power. It will use the WFCO to charge. An alternative is a lithium compatible charger like a NOCO to directly charge your battery. That’s what we do if there’s the need to top off the batteries and solar isn’t effective.

rmcarthur

Did you buy the charger on Amazon? Price range? Thanks

Slackers

The NOCO Genuis 10 is selling for just under $100 at Amazon.

GregChris

Per the Battleborn rep at nucamp23, it is NOT advisable to charge at less than the recommended voltage for lithium. The 13.6 volt lead/acid level could damage the battery over time. They probably would not honor the warranty either. I believe correct converter should charge at 14.6v. Not sure. If you are only using solar the battery could be continuously under charged, not good either. You can bypass the converter and use an external lithium charger. The reps advice, upgrade the converter while having the battery installed, or make sure your current one compatible and set properly.

AnOldUR

@GregChris. It’s the non lithium converter that will not full charge a lithium battery. Solar will (edit: with the correct Victron setting). The danger is in not periodically giving the battery a full charge to balance the cells. Solar or a lithium compatible charger like a NOCO will accomplish this. 

Marceline

GregChris said:

 If you are only using solar the battery could be continuously under charged, not good either. 

This would only happen if you’re using a solar controller that doesn’t have a profile for charging lithium batteries. I had a circa 2013 solar suitcase that had that problem but I think most controllers sold in the last few years have a lithium profile. If you have a modern solar setup there’s really no need to change the converter unless you have a specific need to bring your battery up to full charge from shore power (or maybe the 110 outlet on a generator). 

pthomas745

Did anyone follow up and ask "what might happen?" What damage may occur? Lithium batteries have been around for quite a long time now, and seem to be pretty reliable.  Did the rep offer anything other than...nothing?

AnOldUR

@pthomas745. I tried to ask that and how often he’d recommend fully charging, but couldn’t get the question in. Too many people and not enough time.

This is what I just found, “… without an appropriate cell balancing, the difference between the cells would increase more and more, gradually draining the available capacity.“

Slackers

We rarely charge our electric car to 100% and haven't had an issue over nearly 5 years of our ownership.  Perhaps its BMS is more sophisticated than that of a typical RV lithium battery.  The car manufacturer says an occasional charge to 100% is good for calibrating the software for estimating range.  My take-away from my car experience and the casual comment from the Battleborn rep is to charge our Tab's battery to 100% before each of our trips.  

GregChris

it's 100% vers partial charge, at least the BB battery, is design to charge at 14.6v, anything less is not completely compatible with their chemistry. This is from BB engineers at tech teams.

SLJ

I installed two 100AH Lithium batteries in my '21 T@B. I did not change out the WFCO converter. Instead I installed a Victron Smart charger and switch the batteries off when on shore power. I let the Victron smart charger charge them to 100%  if needed and switch the batteries back on when I disconnect from shore power. Replacing the WFCO with one of their new auto sensing controllers would have cost more than the Victron and wouldn't be as reliable. There's been too many problems with WFCO's auto sensing for me to justify spending more when I can get a better charger for less and a lot less labor.

Slackers

Battleborns may be the exception but lithium batteries shouldn't be left at 100% charge for any length of time. So don't charge to 100% and let them sit for days at a time.

Horigan

That guidance applies more for lithium ion batteries, not LiFEO4 batteries.  For longer periods of storage, like a few months, then storing at LiFEo4 batteries 50% SOC improves battery life.  Lithium ion batteries, like those laptops, cell phones, etc, are more sensitive to long term storage at 100% SOC.

SLJ

Slackers said:

Battleborns may be the exception but lithium batteries shouldn't be left at 100% charge for any length of time. So don't charge to 100% and let them sit for days at a time.

Days or weeks does not make any difference with LiFEo4 batteries. Long term (several months, over Winter) you can store them at any level you want but 50% is usually recommended.

Slackers

Right about LiFEpo4 batteries. Some references say to cycle the batteries after 3-6 mos too.

Tabmanic

Here is a good interview with the CEO of Battle Born going over their batteries for charging, storage and longevity, this will answer a lot of questions, worth the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI

WildRumpus

My AGM batteries died, so I'm going to get an Amperetime 100Ah LiFEpo4 battery for $349.  I have a 2022 Tab 400 Boondock. From what I've gathered form this forum, the charger won't fully charge the Lithium battery to 100% (more like 85%), correct? 

But the built-in solar charger can top it off to 100% if I change the setting to Lithium, correct? 

On a side note, I also happen to own a RWD Tesla with LFP batteries so I'm pretty familiar with LFP (or, I guess in the camping world it's LiFEpo4) batteries.  In my Tesla, I charge to 100% at least once a month to reset the BMS and avoid storing it at 100% for long term.  And it's fine to drain these types of batteries WAY down. 

pthomas745

I have an AmperTime (now LiTime) and I handle my battery exactly the way you describe.  I rarely use shore power, and my solar panel/controller charges my battery just fine.

Horigan

WildRumpus said:

But the built-in solar charger can top it off to 100% if I change the setting to Lithium, correct? 

Correct.  That's my setup also.

SLJ

WildRumpus said:

I have a 2022 Tab 400 Boondock. From what I've gathered form this forum, the charger won't fully charge the Lithium battery to 100% (more like 85%), correct? 

Check your WFCO converter model number:

WF8735/P - Not for lithium batteries (charges to 80%)

WF-8735LiS - Has switch for charging lithium batteries

WF8735-AD - Auto Detects for charging lithium batteries (doesn't always so you may have to fiddle with it)

Marceline

Horigan said:

WildRumpus said:

But the built-in solar charger can top it off to 100% if I change the setting to Lithium, correct? 

Correct.  That's my setup also.

Me too. I'll replace the converter when it goes bad, but I don't see any need to do it right away. I rarely have shore power.

WildRumpus

SLJ said:

WildRumpus said:

I have a 2022 Tab 400 Boondock. From what I've gathered form this forum, the charger won't fully charge the Lithium battery to 100% (more like 85%), correct? 

Check your WFCO converter model number:

WF8735/P - Not for lithium batteries (charges to 80%)

WF-8735LiS - Has switch for charging lithium batteries

WF8735-AD - Auto Detects for charging lithium batteries (doesn't always so you may have to fiddle with it)

I have the new WF-8955-AD converter in my 2022 Tab 400BD.  According to WFCO, it auto-detects lithium or lead batteries and charges accordingly. So I should be able to charge 100% with shore power.

I plugged it in and let it charge overnight. According to my multimeter reading, it charged to 100%!  

So, my 2022 Tab 400BD with the WF-8955-AD converter is pretty much plug-n-play with lithium batteries. I keep it covered, so I haven't tried charging it with the built-in solar. But from what I've gathered, all I need to do is change the settings in the Victron via the phone app. BTW, I'm fortuntate enough to have bought my used Tab from a nice seller who I've remained in contact with. That came in very handy when trying to connect using the Victron app. It asked for a six digit PIN, which I was able to obtain from the previous owner. 

Tabmanic

8955-AD: To make sure you are using the correct charging profile in the converter, look in the bottom back of converter and the small LED light should be Blue for the lithium profile, Green is lead acid. If it is green here is a video that WFCO linked me to that will force it to switch and it has worked every time for me. Also the video shows pulling the lower area out to see the light but you don't have to on the 8955-AD you can see it by looking thru the bottom.

https://wfcoelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Auto-Detect-into-Lithium-Mode-Compressed.mp4