What are you doing to conserve energy in your T@B unit?

Michigan_Mike

I am certainly not a rookie in conserving energy in the Little Guy trailers having owned a 4-wide, 5-wide and now a Silver Shadow.  I'm considering a T@B unit here in the immediate future and with all the knowledgeable users/owners here on the forum figured that this would be a valuable piece of information to glean from members therein.  So here goes!

I have an 80 watt Zamp solar panel (version one with a recent controller upgrade) and am looking to keep my panel and utilize it for a long time to come.  I know that the T@B refrigerator units are a great source of energy consumption and that they have been noted to sap a stock trailer battery dry by the time one arrives at their destination or that this has occurred many times with various owners.  So by shutting the frig unit down and eliminating that drain I'm guessing that some appreciable amount of energy conservation can be attained.  I have also seen recommendations to purchase nothing less than a 100 amp or greater solar panel for T@B units, what is your opinion from the solar side of things via a T@B for achieving power needs and goals?  

What else are you folks doing short of a battery shutoff switch to attain energy savings and can my 80 watt Zamp panel be counted on (if the sun shines) to charge up the battery when I am traveling?  The only other item I will have and need is my CPAP unit and some occasional DVD watching on the TV.  I'm well aware of the effects of parasite drain via LED ports, circuitry, etc. but am not as well versed on the effects of the ALDE system via electrical consumption, etc.  

What are you doing personally to conserve energy when dry camping and what tips/tricks can you recommend to others like myself to extend your battery usage when off shore power?   

jkjenn

Mike, the fan be a real drain. I try to limit the use of it. I also use AA starry lights instead of the the T@b lights and other lights.

If you can run the DVD through a laptop instead of the Jensen, you can cut battery use in half, too. On battery, I use the TV speaker, not the stereo speakers.

The pump and water heater add to phantom drain. I turn them off when not in use.

Lastly, get a 12v adapter for your CPAP. You might even want a dedicated power source for it that you can charge in your TV, like one of the GZ packs.

Nomad

Mike - I'm with Jenn on the ceiling fan, never use it unless I have the solar deployed during the day (there's a thread on a more energy efficient replacement somewhere here in the forums). Even though the LED lights don't use much juice, I also have three battery powered lights I use (I like subdued lighting so I added those with no thought to power usage.
Fridge - I think a lot has to do with how much juice your TV is putting out. On a 2-3 hour trip I have absolutely no problem running it while en route. On an 8 hour, I'll run for a couple, then turn off for an hour. One can also just add a bag of ice to assist if needed. Once stopped, I switch to propane.
Alde seems to be very efficient so haven't had to worry about that. Do shut it down while traveling except if it real cold out.
Solar/Battery - I have 120w Zamp with just a group 24 battery and I generally do fine as long as I stop and get a couple hours of sun. If I was to change something I'd switch to a group 27. And if I was starting fresh today, I'd probably do the 200w Zamp.

Edit-Add: The light above the front counter seems to take more juice than any of the others.

jkjenn

PXLated said:

Edit-Add: The light above the front counter seems to take more juice than any of the others.

Completely agree.

mickietucs

Mike - no personal experience yet as I haven't gotten my solar panels but Wanderoo has an 80w Zamp and when she came to Tucson, she spent a week without elec hookups and it worked for her. I don't believe she watched t.v. and had the fridge on propane. I'm sure you can get specifics from her (I think she ran the fan a little). Of course, it's AZ so normally we have tons of sun. 

Normfun

Power drains in my CS-S.  1. Fridge 2. Ceiling fan 3. Alde 4. TV/Stereo 5. Lights.  Those are in order of current draw.  I don't use the fridge unless we are on shore power, I have an ARB in the car for food storage when on battery.  We tend to camp where the fan is not needed much too.  I do not worry about running the ARB, ALDE, Lights and Stereo as we have 200+ amps of battery on board and 200 watts of solar on the  roof of the tab. I also have an additional portable 100 watt panel I can add to the mix.  So far no problems and no worries.

BTW it will be a real nice upgrade for you.

Nomad

normfun - But you and Jenn are the solar/battery overachievers. Between the two of you we could all just sponge juice off you two for a week of boondocking :-)

RZRBUG

I save energy by lying down and putting my feet up.

I think you'll find the fridge on battery will be your largest draw, but you have an ARB, so you should be able to work around that without too much problem.  I don't have solar yet, so my "boondocking" is limited.  I do have a generator that I used a couple of times on my last trip when I did not have hookups for a couple of days, but I had to be sparing with it because the guy next to me was in a tent and I had to work out running times with him.

Good luck with the new trailer.  I'm sure you'll love it.

Wanderoo

The 80W Zamp is "adequate," but you will need full sun at least every other day.  In addition, I utilized a Goal Zero YETI 150 which I used to power my laptop, and a Goal Zero lantern which I used in lieu of the T@B interior lights.  I only used my 12V fan a little bit every day to exhaust the hot air (about 2-3 minutes) and then augmented the air movement with a battery operated fan.  I ran my fridge on propane the entire week, and I used the 12V water pump a little bit every day. Ambient temps were in the high 80s with T@B being positioned in full sun, and the temp inside the T@B when it was closed up all day exceeded 100 degrees.

I think the 80W Zamp is adequate, but if I were to purchase a Zamp again for my future (anticipated) extended boondocking camping uses, I would get at least a 100W.  Having said that, the 80W is adequate for boondocking if you have good sun.  It is definitely more than adequate if you have electric hookups every couple of days.

mash2

CONSERVATION APPROACHES:  
BASIC:   I use AAA powered lights, never use the radio, and have no TV installed, making power usage simpler. I get my music from an IPOD with a battery driven speaker that I recharge in the TV as I'm moving around (I think it sounds better anyway).  
I often just pull the fuses for the things I'm not using (why worry about phantom draw).  


FRIDGE:  My biggest draw. I have a 2 way.  May switch to an ARB to reduce consumption (or run the ArB in the TV).   

FAN:  With regard to the fan, I run the fan on low power to stir the air and I haven't found it to be a major drain.  I have a battery powered fan if I want any more than simple stirring of air.  With the fan, higher rotation speeds can definitely be a significant draw (as others have indicated).  There is a fan with lower amp requirements that lowers the power needs of the fan.  If you buy new, it may be possible to get LG to install the fan (there is a discussion on this and the LG site about the variable fan - 7350 fantastic fan as I recall).   

BATTERIES:  Pxlated is right about battery (Group 27 or double batteries for more power storage).  Again, if you buy new, you may want to significantly upgrade battery capacity above standard Group 24.  I would go to 100 AMPs minimum.

SOLAR:  Try the 80 watts solar for a while.  Given your needs, it may be small.  However, you should be able to pick up a second one if needed and this 160 watt combination should be adequate for needs.

CPAP:   CPAP requirements depend on device.  Manual should indicate what AMP requirements are for the device. 

Web discussions indicate between 15 and 40 AMPS depending on water pressure needed and device efficiency.  This would imply a standard group 24 battery might not be sufficient.  this will certainly stress your power system.  Depending on you CPAP machine, you may really need close to one 80 amp battery to cover the CPAP device (you will only have 40 usable amps from a 80 AMP battery.)  Poor solar for a couple of days would make CPAP difficult to use.  While a Yeti 150 would aid in a pinch, note that in the end, it is a 14 amp storage device.  If web discussions are correct, the Yeti would not make a full night with the machine (I don't have a Yeti so don't have significant experience with it; just going off the specs.  But a second battery would give greater capacity -- but also require more solar panel capacity than 80 watts).  

MY APPROACH:  I installed two group 27's with 200 amps to get me thru lean times with poor solar.    I run with 136 watts permanently installed on the roof of the t@b and it has been more than adequate.  I have a backup panel that can be employed for 200 watts total, but I'm frugal with appliances so the core panels have generally been more than adequate.  (I should note that I use a 2 way fridge that is probably equivalent to your CPAP unit in power needs if my estimate is correct).   

Nomad

mash2 - Ooops, forgot to include you in the battery/solar overachiever club - and you're probably the grand wizard :-)

Lisa33

You know I have experience with boondocking and dry camping for weeks and months on end with both the 80 watt Zamp panels paired with one Group 24 battery and later with 300 watts of installed solar with two GC batteries.  I have a T@DA, so the power consumption is a little different, as is the available roof real estate for installed panels.  My gut tells me that you'll need more solar and dual batteries.  The CPAP is the clincher.  That, and I know you'll be running two fridges as I do.  The 3-way fridge would work in your favor, I think.  However, I'm not sure how the DC power consumption comparison shakes out when you are traveling a lot (and needing to switch the 3-way to 12v)  vs. staying put and thus able to remain on propane.  It's tricky!  I'll echo the suggestion to upgrade the fan (last I heard the factory won't install the 7350, but they did ship one to Miller Trailer Sales with a new T@B for Preston to install).  Sounds like the MaxxAir fan is another good choice.  

I most recently traveled for 11 days running the two refrigerators (ARB and Norcold 12v), low amp draw fan running constantly on low (even while towing).  Rather liberal use of lights and water pump. We didn't use the television, but I wouldn't have hesitated.  Charged many devices (two iPads, three iPhones), etc.  Of course, I've also done much longer trips under similar conditions.  With the 80 watts of solar and group 24 battery, I could limp along with lots of rather drastic energy-saving efforts (like turning off the fridge at night and never using the fan for more than 10 minutes or whatever to clear out the hot air).  I could not have run a CPAP under those conditions. 

All I can say is to get as much solar as you can practically manage, paired with the appropriate amount of battery capacity (1w or more of solar per AH of battery capacity).  Increasing the battery capacity alone will ultimately be a losing proposition unless you plan to have shore power every few days.  Battery best practice is to fully recharge daily.

You know I can go on ad nauseum on this topic!  

Lisa

Michigan_Mike

Wow, some very good information and tips!   

Regarding my CPAP unit it is a ResMed unit and when I travel or run off a battery I am not using the humidifier on the unit.  I'm running only the air side of the unit as the ResMed breaks down into equal cubes and the humidifier is parked in the storage bag for the most part unless I am hooked to shore power as I know that part is a big drain on power.  

The LED lighting is a low draw too (other than maybe the one light in the front noted) so that shouldn't create any big energy drain.  I'll probably install a battery shutoff switch too if I'm wandering around from a fixed location in the car and that will help a bit.  I do have a golf cart size battery now in my SS that I plan to hang onto and replace it with the smaller battery that came with the trailer.  But am tempted to parallel a couple of batteries to bump the amperage up and not have to worry about power needs.  

I'm also tempted to look at a couple of the dual flexible monocrystalline panels and consider mounting them to the trailer.  I've heard that they do make the Velcro adhesive that you can put on the trailer and that this works well.  I'm a little apprehensive about that however as I've been out in some very high winds, ran through a storm in Texas with the Little Guy and ended up losing a side window molding that was ripped off the car.  I'd hate to lose a 100 watt panel to the forces of nature!  Anyone have any fixed panels and any wind issues working a panel loose while in transit?  

The ceiling fan would be something I'd consider changing out down the road.  And I wonder why the factory won't change them out?  Is it because of the difficulty of working on them from the roof area and possibility of damaging the roof?  If I were to do that I'd probably place some type of support (e.g., two sections of wood) lengthwise across the roof and on either side of the fan opening to protect the roof from denting or collapsing, etc.  I know it would create some challenges but that this should be easily doable too.  

The ARB will be in use and I have really grown to love it for it's low draw and the ability to maintain consistent temps, keeping food fresh and the beer ice cold!  

Thanks again!

Verna

Mike, if you change the guts out on the FF to upgrade it, you only need a step ladder to do one thing on the roof and you don't have to remove caulking, etc. This is according to info that Lisa (I think) posted. The discussion was last winter and I think it's on the LG forum. I'm going to try to change it out this week while camping, but I'm not taking a step ladder so I might not get to it, 

jcfaber1

Mike, I have a ResMed S9 Auto and purchased the 12/24  DC power supply of $89 from CPAP.com.  It works well and will use upwards of 30% less drain than an inverter   I do use the humidifier with the temp set lower at 68 degrees.  I also have a fleece cover for the hose.  
I recommend 2 6 volt golf cart batteries for 225-230 AH capacity.  I would then add another 80 watt panel.  If you wire them in series you will have higher voltage requiring an MPPT controller but less voltage drop and higher efficiency.  I would put the controller close to the batteries.  Morningstar makes a nice small MPPT controller.
John

mash2

No, I bow to others...

Lisa33

Mike, here is part of a Facebook conversation that I had a while ago with someone with a T@B.  She had her flexible panel fly off while driving when it was secured with industrial strength Velcro.  Something to consider...

Normfun

I used 3m 5952 vhb tape to hold mine to the roof of the T@b. Dicor or silicone around the edges. I've gone over 1000 miles now with no loosening or problems. If you figure speed plus headwind we encountered 90-100mph at times. 

Kats

Mike, we crank the Norcold up to as cold a temp as we can get it for about 8 hours using land power before we leave. We also put freezer blocks, frozen bottles of water, etc. in it. We turn it off completely while driving and never open it. Once at the campsite, we run it on propane all night, then turn it off during the day, especially since we are out all day. We keep the milk in there, maybe eggs, mostly beverages. Things we are going to want to keep really cold--like meats, for example-- for several days we keep in a cooler. We hook our 120 Zamp up, and take the fuse out at the battery, leaving it out all day. We pretty much never put the fuse back in until we have to use battery power--like the pump, or to keep the fridge running on propane at night. This has worked very well for us. When we were in Acadia in Maine in late Sept, the evening temps got down to the 40's, but we didn't need to use the heat (until one of us caught a virus and was feverish, but that is a different story), so we had no draw from the Alde.

Nomad

Wow Kats, that sounds a little radical - Agree with the pre-cooling the fridge and maybe the frozen bottles while traveling (depending on length) but I do none of the rest and all works fine...Yesterday's example...
Broke camp about 9:30 so got a couple hours of solar (120w Zamp) before leaving. Had a short trip of only 45 minutes. Fridge on battery. Arrived at new location and set out the solar under clear skies. Switched fridge to propane. Ran ceiling fan (low speed), water pump, Alde hot water all day plus I charged my iPad and iPhone. At sundown, cranked on the heat and turned on the rear lights until midnight. At that point I still had a green light on the battery monitor so at least 12.5. Alde, fridge, water pump were on all night and I awoke (sunrise) to 12.4. Here two hours after sun up under thin overcast I now show 12.8. This has been my experience over a full year of travel. And this is with just a group 24 battery.

Nomad

Another thing I rarely use is the outside light - seems to draw more power than the other lights. Plus, I tend to forget it's on so it draws power until I happen to wake up and discover it.

jkjenn

I find he fridge on propane uses little battery. I used it in propane a lot on my last trip.I would agree with @PXLatedabout the porch light. I only use it on shore power.

I started using Luci lights. They are inflatable solar lights. You can get various colors, too. I have the multi colored and change the light to turquoise to match my trim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG54UqxpCdo

jschemel

We also use the Luci lights when boon docking. They are amazing as long as you get them charged during the day. One hanging above us at night is very good for reading. Shop aroung tho they can vary in price. I think $15 is the best I found.
(I was the hit of my women's backpack trip
with them. They weigh almost nothing)

jkjenn

I let mine charge either on my dash while driving or use a little clip to clip to the picnic table during the day.

T@Balong

My experience after spending over 50 nights in the T@B this summer is very similar to that of PXL noted above.   I have the Zamp 120w solar panel which charges my group 24 battery just fine.    If we're camping where it will be hot and humid and we need the AC, we find a campground with electricity.   Since we are not full-time, there is no need to purchase a generator and I don't see one in our future.   Since most of our time is spent outdoors, we use the ceiling fan just before bedtime to cool the trailer down a bit.    Lights for reading and power to charge electronics are very adequate with this method.    When towing between stops, we always have the fridge on battery and have suffered no battery drain since it is being charged through the 7-way hookup.    The fridge stays cold in the process.   Also, the fridge fix supplied by the factory and installed at the dealer really works well and even when boondocking the fan does not use a lot of battery power.   Propane use for hot water and showers as well as the fridge is a great feature.   The equipment and accessories that each of us "require" obviously vary depending on our camping preferences.   Places visited:   Smoky Mountain National Park, Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore (3 times), Muskegon State Park, Peninsula State Park in Door County, Evart Family Fun Fest (a dulcimer event), Lake Superior Provincial Park (Agawa Bay Campground), Manitoulin Island, Bruce Peninsula National Park, Lakeport State Park, and Shipshewana, IN.   But alas the leaves are falling here in Michigan and nighttime freezes are predicted.   Last weekend I tucked the T@B away for the winter and brought the battery into the house where I will be checking it periodically to make sure it maintains its charge.

webcrawler

My plan is to go to LiPo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate cells.  These have four times the energy density of lead acid batteries.  For example a true 180 Amp Hour pack (4 cells at 3.2V nominal) weigh just 48 lb and are smaller than a group 24 Lead Cell. (Don't confuse true amp hour rating with reserve capacity) 

The problem is that the charging systems for lead acid batteries ARE NOT compatible with Lithium cells.  It will over charge them and most likely cause a fire...

I am working on adapting a charging controller and power protection diode into my new T@B that will regulate and charge the properly protect the lithium cells.  It will have a very accurate battery meter with 0-100% capacity read out...

My first tests will be with eight 180AmpHr cells wired in two parallel strings of four cells each.  This will yield 360 Amp hours for only 96 pounds of batteries.  (This is the equivalent energy of more than four 6V golf cart batteries)

With a 200+ Watt solar panel it should allow for 12V off grid almost indefinitely...

I'll let you guys know how the test goes....

P.S. DO NOT attempt to use these cells unless you are VERY familiar with their charging requirements...!!!

Nomad

What's the cost difference between Lithium and regular? Recall reading somewhere that they were real expensive.

webcrawler

Very expensive but while lead acid are good for about 300-500 deep cycles, these are good for about 2000-3000 cycles and will last for decades.....