Boon-Docking with a T@B

OneOleMan

I've not had a camper/trailer is several years, now it’s time to get back to camping and I’m not sure what will solve my pangs. I do know sleeping on the ground is too much for these 70+ year old bones.  There are just 2 of us, my old 80# Aussie and myself so there's no need for anything large. 

In looking I've narrowed my choices to the T@B Clamshell, the T@B with either the U or L Floorplan and an A-Frame pop up; all without a wet shower but with the outdoor shower and a port-a-potty.  In the past I enjoyed boon-docking and imagine I would do some of the same with my new trailer.

Now a couple questions for the T@Bers who know best:

1 – The Clamshell has a 12V/110V refrigerator, when there are no hookups how long will a fully charged battery last running the refrigerator on 12V?  Would I be able to get 2 days before re-charging it?  I have a feeling for boon-docking one of the other T@B’s would be a better choice.

2 – How do others who enjoy boon-docking handle the fresh water needs?  5 gallons really seems quite minimal, maybe I’m wrong.  The 19 gallon grey water tank should be large enough, though.

There'll probably be more questions later but this, at least, is a start.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Michigan_Mike

The battery question is one that comes up a lot and is difficult to answer unless you do some calculations, actual over night, day long testing, know the class & amp hour rating on your battery, etc.   

Look in the Little Guy forum under the discussion area "Electric & Solar Power"  as you can search that area and find a lot of information.  Here is some information that will get you started and there are some comments near the bottom that will help you out a little:

  http://www.golittleguy.com/forum#/discussion/comment/28969

What I will offer up to you or as an alternative is solar power, via either a fixed solar panel mounted to the trailer (they DO make flexible panels now) or a portable solar panel that I use for my 5x10 Silver Shadow.  I power up an ARB refrigerator/freezer unit, a CPAP unit for sleeping and even a ceiling fan and TV/DVD combo unit in my trailer.  I also wired in a dedicated 12 volt feed wire under my Equinox tow vehicle to the electrical 7-pin wiring harness to provide a charge to my battery while in transit.  And you could also consider a small, portable generator to supplement your power needs, but there are areas that do not allow generator use.  But if you are boondocking you'd probably be fine....  I don't want a generator as that is added load and also the need to carry fuel.  I balance my power usage and since I keep the ARB in the back of my TV I can also plug it into my car when I leave camp.  My 80 watt Zamp panel charges the battery nicely too and you might even consider wiring in an additional battery for added power.  The dry or gel cell style batteries could easily be placed inside since they do not let off any gas and I have seen these type of applications when I camped out in the Arizona desert.  

When I camped with a group of individuals at a desert rally (sponsored by p[aha Que) up in Quartzsite, AZ they recommended I pack in 10 gallons of water for the four day stay and you can most definitely conserve water if you take the time to focus on consumption and ways to reuse water for other tasks, etc.  

How to conserve water

OneOleMan

Mike, thanks for the link “How to conserve water”.  Many ideas there I had been aware of years ago and since forgotten.  I now remember using Sun Showers, not only for showers but also extra water.  Solar power is probably the way to go and if a flexible one could be safely attached to the T@B’s roof that could be a real plus.  

I really don’t like generators, rented one once when with a group in the middle of the desert; danged thing was too noisy.  One of my son’s has a small one he uses so perhaps I could beg, borrow or steal it from him for a week to give it a try.

Pat

DurangoTaB

I agree with everything Mike suggested. We have the 80amp Zamp, but we also like to camp in the trees, and coupled with our typical afternoon mountain clouds, we don't always get full use out of solar while camping. I have my Zamp hooked up now in some screaming Southwestern sunshine and it's putting out about 2amps....so it seems to me you're getting a trickle charger at best, and a lot depends on usage and other tools as Mike mentions I also just replaced the 56Ah Deka marine/RVbattery that our (mostly marine) RV dealer gave us (2 months ago), with a 79Ah AGM Deka Intimidator batterly...pretty much the best you can do with the small space in the T@B box (won't fit a group 27 or larger). I realize with the external (not closed in) box I don't need AGM, but it's more forgiving to discharging as well as bouncing (newer T@Bs don't have much suspension). In two weeks we're off to the Idaho Rally (which we're really looking forward to), and although we have a full hookup in McCall, we'll have some chances before and after the trip to check out The Intimidator!

Wanderoo

Mike -- Thanks SO much for the link on conserving water!  That is great info, and the other ideas on that Website are good, too.  You are the Answer Man.   

mickietucs

While doing some other searches on this topic I came across this site of possible interest. Of course Mike and others have the experience (and it appears this website is a few years old so perhaps some info is out of date?) - just thought I'd pass it on anyway.

http://www.macandchris.com/RVBatteries.htm

Michigan_Mike

All of these discussions are helpful and the links do come in handy.  I've had my share of interesting experiences with batteries over the years and since buying my first (I have owned three trailers) Little Guy 5 years ago I have brushed up on them here on the forum and with the help of others more knowledgeable.  Keeping them properly charged is the key to longer life, as is not over using them or taking them down beyond their capacity.  I believe that 50% is the general rule of thumb for discharge or trying not to take the battery down beyond 50%.  I'm certainly not an expert but know enough to conserve my energy while boondocking and will admit, it gets a bit unnerving for me personally thinking about my ARB refrigerator out in desert like conditions and wondering if I'll have enough battery power to keep it running or whether my solar panel will adequately charge the battery for the next days consumption.  

I use a 12 volt LED volt meter like the one shown below to monitor my voltage readings and it has been sufficient for my needs.  Don't let the readings get down too low (10.5 volts is bottoming out) and I believe that 11.5 volts is the time to shut things down and think about re-charging the battery.  That would have me on edge anyway and if I hit 11.5 volts with my deep cycle battery I will be sweating bullets if you will.....  Look at the links below and they discuss maximum discharge rates for batteries and how best to maintain a battery as there is a process called battery sulfation that occurs when the lead battery plates are deprived of a charge.   If you use your trailer's electric converter, this will keep the battery charged properly and float the charge too or keep the battery maintained as a battery tender does.  I have a battery tender here at the house that provides a trickle charge to the trailer battery and basically maintains the battery when it is not being used.  A battery can lose its charge over time when not in use and a tender will help in this process and help minimize or eliminate the sulfation problem....  I've also learned that heat is very hard on batteries (as is cold temperatures) and it is important to make sure that all electrical connections are clean and secured tight on battery posts.  A small stainless bristled brush (or something similar) is a great tool for cleaning off battery posts and connections and some electrical inhibiting grease is helpful too in providing good connections.  

At season's end or prior to the onset of winter I normally charge up all my batteries (boat, lawn tractor, trailer, etc.) before storing my toys and calling it a season.  This helps preserve a battery and over 25 years here in my current location it has minimized replacing these batteries as well.  One last note, the old saying of placing a battery on a piece of wood is bogus as batteries are housed inside plastic and sitting on a concrete surface will not cause a battery to discharge quicker...... 

Deep Cycle Battery FAQ

Battery Basics - A Layman's Guide

mickietucs

Thanks Mike - as usual, you're a wealth of information!

radren

Hi Mickietus,

My t@b comes in late august sometime. I have been told by just about everyone that the two 6 volt battery set up is better all round than the single 12 volt battery. You just have to make sure they are well vented. I just spoke to my dealer  (Little guy) in san diego about the battery situation, apparently the T@Bs do not come with a battery, it is something the dealer adds when they get the trailer from the factory.  So I asked my dealer if he could install the two 6 volt batteries. He spoke with the factory and they are going to install 2 battery cases instead of the one and the dealer is going to set me up with the two 6 volt batteries. Where the cases would be, on front of tongue or inside the little hood my choice since I am not going to have the propane tank. I have been EXTREMELY satisfied with my dealer so far. So helpful and always available to answer my questions. If you are in California, the little guy dealer in San Diego  (Eric is my contact) are just fantastic. My only problem is they are 2 hours from me.  So everyone's input is so helpful in getting stuff checked and right the first time. 

Lisa33

On my T@DA I have two 6v batteries (Trojan T-105) mounted inside the LP cover. They provide 225 amp hours of battery power. I moved the LP tank to the front center and have the batteries mounted on either side behind it. For me, solar has been a wonderful option. I also love to boondock and find that with my current setup (300w of solar with the 225 amp hours of battery), I can boondock indefinitely with ease. I have the Norcold 2-way refridge in the T@DA and an ARB in my tow vehicle. Even before installing the current setup, I was able to camp without a hookup indefinitely. That was with a smaller group 24 battery and the 80 watt Zamp panels. However, I had to be very miserly with my power consumption.

Michigan_Mike

As usual, some GREAT input from all!

And a great observation and tip above Raden as "wet batteries" DO give off a gas!   If you can find two "gel" or sealed battery units you do need to keep the battery vented for the gas potential.  If you find the dry (gel style sealed units) batteries you can store them inside your trailer.  That's what I would be looking for as they are smaller, take up less room and are convenient.  

Leeh22

Has any one put an AGM battery inside and had it set up to work with zamp solar?

Mercator

Leeh22 said:

Has any one put an AGM battery inside and had it set up to work with zamp solar?

I just installed a Group 31 GEL battery inside (see the discussion I posted today.)  I will be setting it up for solar this summer, but prefer the flexible panels like the Renogy 100 watt unit for their light weight, low cost and flexibility. I will be modifying them to use the standard SAE 12 volt connecters that Zamp uses and which are readily available on line.

mash2

I installed two group 27 AGM batteries - one in each wheel well to balance the weight.

Leeh22

Mercator,
i saw your setup and it's what got me thinking about this.   My T@B clamshell will arrive in March or April and I've read the battery is installed by dealers and not the factory.   I'd like to upgrade the battery from the beginning and think the AGM might be the ticket since I've saved up some extra $$ for outfitting.   I also believe solar will be a must but I'm torn between Renology and Zamp.   Totally new to all of this and am wondering how wiring works if the battery(ies) are inside.   Does it mean drilling holes to pass through wires?  

I like the idea of Renology for convenience and not worrying about theft but worry about positioning.  Your post was the inspiration for an entire afternoon of learning more about batteries and solar.  But not sure I'm any closer to a decision, no perfect answer and lots to think about!  

Leeh22

Mash2

the Group 27 AGM feel like what I want though I had only considered 1 and HADNT thought about balancing weight.  Thanks for that!  How did you wire them?

Mercator

Leeh22 said:

Mercator,
i saw your setup and it's what got me thinking about this.   My T@B clamshell will arrive in March or April and I've read the battery is installed by dealers and not the factory.   I'd like to upgrade the battery from the beginning and think the AGM might be the ticket since I've saved up some extra $$ for outfitting.   I also believe solar will be a must but I'm torn between Renology and Zamp.   Totally new to all of this and am wondering how wiring works if the battery(ies) are inside.   Does it mean drilling holes to pass through wires?  

I like the idea of Renology for convenience and not worrying about theft but worry about positioning.  Your post was the inspiration for an entire afternoon of learning more about batteries and solar.  But not sure I'm any closer to a decision, no perfect answer and lots to think about!  

Mine is a GEL battery - most often used in solar installs because of there ability to go really deep into discharge with better recovery and more cycles. Moving it inside, behind the axel slowed me to put in a larger battery than a Group 27. 

When wiring for solar I will use the existing wiring in the tongue box with no problems. Because we are working in a 12 volt system be careful of voltage and current drop over distance - be sure and use large (low gauge) wires wherever possible. It is possible to mount a waterproof connector on the wall of the trailer to be closer to the battery. 

I would also recommend a battery monitor be installed that gives to the information of amps in, amps out and % of charge remaining in the battery. I had a Trimetric TM-2030 installed by a professional solar installer. A good monitor gives me peace of mind knowing how much fuel is in the tank. A lot more precise than measuring voltage in the system. 

mash2

Parallel wired.  I ran 00 wires along the rear seat bench on the inside of the box (not visible from outside).  In my case, I just picked up a couple of prewired battery cable in 8 foot lengths and then attached.  I actually ran one end to the negative block on the right one and the positive block on the left one.  Cut a battery box to fit each (with modified lid).  

Next time I'm in there (going to replace solar charger anyway), I'll try to remember to take a couple of photos.

 Nice part is that each battery is over the axle, neutral on weight distribution, and I reduced the tongue weight pretty significantly when I relocated back.  

Used up a little storage on the left hand wheel well area, but the right is generally taken by electrical anyway so wasn't a significant loss of storage space.

As to wiring from the solar, I did drill a hole into the electrical area to get the cable in for my solar.... just coated the hole and haven't had any issue.  Since my solar is permanent, I ran the solar connectors along the inside edge of the bottom until I needed to move them  into the t@B.  Since you have ZAMP connector, not sure of the approach you would need to take, but since it is prewired, can't imagine that you'd need to do too much to modify to your needs.

mash2

Here is a couple of photos of the wheel wells.... hope it helps

Deltaboy59

Did you have to modify anything with the converter..does it automatically charge both batteries at the same time ? Thanks.
Are your battery boxes secured to floor ?

mash2

No modification, just hooked up the positive to the incoming + wire on one battery and then tied to the - wire to the second battery (with fuse before the + in the cabling).  I'm not an electrician, but the setup has worked fine.  I have solar wired in as well and I've been ending the day with fully charged batteries every day (sometimes on cloudy days with heavy use it's not 100%, but generally has performed for at least a week (when I move, everything gets charged by the TV). If you search parallel battery wiring there is ton's of diagrams on the web for setup.  In addition, there are several files in the Yahoo group that address as well.

Any electricians can chime in and correct me...

 

jkjenn

Mercator said:

Leeh22 said:

Has any one put an AGM battery inside and had it set up to work with zamp solar?

I just installed a Group 31 GEL battery inside (see the discussion I posted today.)  I will be setting it up for solar this summer, but prefer the flexible panels like the Renogy 100 watt unit for their light weight, low cost and flexibility. I will be modifying them to use the standard SAE 12 volt connecters that Zamp uses and which are readily available on line.

Leeh22, Goal zero actually makes an MC4to SAE cable. How are you planning to set up your Renogy panels, permanently or keep them portable? If portable, how will you set them up?

ChanW

I'd read that Optima AGM batteries were "the best", but that was probably 10 or 15 years ago.

Is there any "better" brand these days?

Also, is the charging curve of the Tab's converter appropriate (or close enough) for the AGM batteries? I know I had to look into it when I installed the Optima in my old Ford tractor, to be sure the tractor's generator was ok with it. It turned out it is, but there is a difference between 'wet' batteries and AGM.

radren

Everything I have read says that two 6 volt golf cart type batteries our perform a single 12 volt batterty. Something to keep in mind. I had my dealer, who buys and installs the battery, install 2 (6) volt batteries. Haven't really tested their mettle yet. 

Deltaboy59

I am currently researching Lifeline for my t@b...
mil spec...standard shape and size...check them out...made in USA. Anyone using this brand ?

mash2

I have two Lifeline GPL-27T in my vehicle.  Added about a year ago.