Difficulty Draining the Alde

ScottG

After a recent camping trip, I decided to drain my plumbing in preparation for winterizing. After opening the faucets and all three drain valves, I noticed nothing was coming out of the Alde drain. Fiddling with the valve and cursing failed to start the flow. I'm guessing there was some sort of pressure/vacuum/air pocket issue that was unable to burp itself out.

So, I hooked up the hose to the city water port, and refilled and bled all the lines. Then I shut off the CW supply valve to the Alde (to reduce back pressure on the drain), opened the hot water faucet (to allow venting), and opened the Alde drain. This time it drained as expected.

I'm passing this along as a cautionary tale to those of you about to undertake your own winterizing. When you drain your lines, be sure your Alde actually empties itself. I'm pretty sure a frozen block in the HW tank would not be good for the appliance! 

marknjudy

 I don't know. It could still be the cursing that worked. Sometimes, it just takes it a while to take effect.   

ScottG

Boy, don't I wish that were true. I would have solved a lot of the world's problems by now!  :-)

marknjudy

I don't swear anymore. My new tactic is intimidation. That doesn't seem to be working any better. It's difficult to intimidate inanimate objects apparently. 

ericnliz

ScottG, Which valve were you opening for the Alde? I drained the hot water, cold water, and fresh water, blew out the lines, added antifreeze [pink kind to the sink, shower , toilet, and thought that was all that needed to be done. Was I missing something? Question 2, were you using the blow-out method, or the antifreeze method. Just curious, it's getting below freezing here, and I don't want any cracked/ broken pipes, or frozen hot water tank. Thanks!

ScottG

ericnliz, the Alde drain is located on the blue line that enters into the base of the unit. The valve itself is a yellow flap that must be pulled up (perpendicular to the pipe) to drain the hot water tank. If you look under the T@B, you'll see a plastic pipe closer to the center than the regular HW and CW drains. If the tank is draining, water should be coming out of that pipe. There's almost three gallons in there, so it should be pretty obvious.

The valve is in the cold water line that supplies the hot water tank. There appears to be a backflow preventer on this line, so simply draining the cold water lines will not also drain the Alde.

After draining, I just blow out the pipes really well. I don't have a specific system, but I try to open and close all the faucets and drains in series--as well as running the pump dry--to ensure that the air gets everywhere.

EDIT 10/26/2021: What I once thought was a backflow preventer (a.k.a. check valve) on the cold water line is apparently just a similar looking reducing coupling. The Alde should be able to drain from the yellow flap valve or the regular cold water drain. 

Photomom

@ScottG do you disconnect the water pump and run it to clear it?

ScottG

Photomom said:

@ScottG do you disconnect the water pump and run it to clear it?

I didn't last year (and had no problems), but I did so this year. I'm not convinced it makes a difference, but it's easy enough to do. At the very least I figure it will help the pump innards dry out a bit.

ericnliz

ScottG, I just opened that valve, and a little bit came out[not 3 gallons worth], is that what you experienced as well? Have you drained that tank before?

ScottG

ericnliz said:

ScottG, I just opened that valve, and a little bit came out[not 3 gallons worth], is that what you experienced as well? Have you drained that tank before?

Yes, just a little bit came out, if anything. I've drained the tank two or three times previously without incident.

Unfortunately, there's no easy way to just look and see if there is still water in the Alde. That's why I opted to fill everything back up and try again. When I did that, the Alde tank did not take the usual time to fill, confirming that it had not drained properly the first time.

Photomom

If you turn the faucet to hot and turn the pump on, does it not suck the water out of the Alde?

ericnliz

Hah, Put the pressure line to it through the city water valve [only opened the cold water valve, going to the tank, and left the others shut to build up pressure] , opened the tank drain valve, and it drained like a champ! No cussing involved, and now I'm thanking my lucky stars it worked! I do think ScottG , you were right there is a pressure valve in the line, and as soon as it built up pressure, the valve opened and it drained. Photomom, no, that didn't work either, I tried.

ScottG

Photomom, all the pump will do is force more water (or perhaps air) from the cold water side into the bottom of Alde tank (blue pipe--which is where the drain is located). Since the hot water exits from the top of the tank (red pipe) you would have a difficult time pushing the water out that way.

ericnliz, are you sure you drained the Alde tank? What you describe could also result from the refilled water simply draining from the pressurized cold water lines. That was why I closed the cold water inlet valve before attempting to drain the tank. How long did it drain after you opened the valve?

ericnliz

ScottG, I did it several times as it would loose pressure after a bit, and the regulator in the line would shut. I'm positive it was the tank draining as I had already blown all the other lines out previously. It drained for probably 5-7 minutes, and I kinda kept track of how much water was coming out. It was at least 2-3 gallons. I had the T@B sitting in my driveway, so it was pretty easy to keep track of the water coming out. The reason I even tried this approach was that I had already blown out my sprinkler system, and all the outside water to the house has been shut off. I really didn't feel like having to start that all over again!

ScottG

Got it. I didn't realize you had repressurized with air (as opposed to water). In any case, it sounds like it did the trick! Only the Alde tank would drain that much for that long.

Michigan_Mike

I used a bike pump with the brass adapter hooked to my city water input on the trailer to pump all the water out of my trailer's water system.  First off I did dump all of the water out of the freshwater tank.  I dropped the nose of the trailer down as far as it would go with the trailer jack about 15-20 minutes after I had opened up the valve (under the trailer step) and did get a substantial amount of water out of the freshwater tank.  I also dumped the water from the Alde tank by flipping the yellow pressure handle up, opening the valves as noted in the factory winterizing process, etc. and left the valves open until all water flow and dripping was completed.

Additionally after I performed the above process I had all valves inside the trailer in the summer position or closed to the outside of the trailer, water & shower faucets off, pumped some air into the system, went into the trailer and opened up the sink faucet and was able to empty a substantial amount of water from the system this way, repeating the process 2-3 times.  I also took the shower head, laid it down on the shower stall floor and repeated the process a few times to pump all water out of the lines until I could only hear air coming out.  

After I felt all water had been pumped out in this manner I repeated this step with the Alde and while looking beneath the trailer, did not see any additional water coming out so I'm confident the system is flushed clear of water and is ready for winter as I also added RV antifreeze to the sink and shower drains and the pump is inspected and clear of any water too.  

The gray and black water tanks contain RV antifreeze at the moment too, but I will completly empty both of these tanks soon, remove both caps, open the valves and both tanks, place a piece of screen over each opening, secure it in place with a small bungy cord and let them remain open and allow them to dry out completely.  This was a tip and information given to me down in Massillon when I purchased my T@B last year and it worked fine.  

An additional bit of information I will put out (not necessarily endorsed by, nor have I discussed this with the factory) there and something that was discussed with a good friend of mine who is a heating/plumbing and AC specialist is that the Pex plumbing can freeze up and will not rupture/nor crack.  I'm not an authority on this but he did say that it basically expands with any water inside the pex line and will survive a freeze in the winter months, so I'm personally confident that any residual water in my trailer lines will not be an issue should there be any residual water left inside the water lines in the trailer.  And once again I will reiterate that this is my own personal opinion and I would recommend that you follow to a T what the factory recommends in winterizing these units and not to deviate from it.  What works for me may not work for others, so that is my caveat and I wouldn't deviate from the recommendations of the factory as I normally go above and beyond to ensure this process is completed.  

Interestingly enough I did find this video below from a guy who did some testing of the Pex plumbing pipe (and copper pipe) and he performed some testing on it.   I'm comfortable that my system is now winterized, but as Scott noted above the Alde and the water pump need to be fully drained to eliminate the potential for any damage to these system components via freezing and expansion.  

https://youtu.be/7louMO0q5wI?t=8

ScottG

Michigan_Mike said:

...
An additional bit of information I will put out (not necessarily endorsed by, nor have I discussed this with the factory) there and something that was discussed with a good friend of mine who is a heating/plumbing and AC specialist is that the Pex plumbing can freeze up and will not rupture/nor crack.  I'm not an authority on this but he did say that it basically expands with any water inside the pex line and will survive a freeze in the winter months, so I'm personally confident that any residual water in my trailer lines will not be an issue should there be any residual water left inside the water lines in the trailer.  And once again I will reiterate that this is my own personal opinion and I would recommend that you follow to a T what the factory recommends in winterizing these units and not to deviate from it.  What works for me may not work for others, so that is my caveat and I wouldn't deviate from the recommendations of the factory as I normally go above and beyond to ensure this process is completed.  
...

I used PEX to plumb my house about 20 years ago. It was fairly new then, and one of the touted benefits was that it could resist freezing. While I think that is true of the PEX itself, I'm suspicious of the numerous plastic fittings that are incorporated into the T@B's water lines.

Another touted advantage of PEX is that it's flexibility allows it to be run in one piece from the supply to the fixture, eliminating the need for fittings. That was what I did in my house, but most applications I've seen since then involve using elbows, tees, and the like. In that sense, it's being assembled much like traditional system made from rigid copper pipe.

Regardless, as far as residual water in the lines, I wouldn't be too concerned. It's the expansion under pressure that typically cracks pipes. A little standing water should have plenty of room to expand a bit within the pipe without causing any damage.

ericnliz

Mike & Scott, Since this was my first time winterizing, I would like to know for the future if I should drain the Alde tank first [before blowing out any lines], or if there is another procedure that works better for draining this tank. Thanks for any input as it might help others that are first timers as well.

Michigan_Mike

ericnliz said:

Mike & Scott, Since this was my first time winterizing, I would like to know for the future if I should drain the Alde tank first [before blowing out any lines], or if there is another procedure that works better for draining this tank. Thanks for any input as it might help others that are first timers as well.

Eric,

I don't think it really matters as long as you open up the floor drain and pressure valve to let the Alde tank drain completely and possibly open the faucet valves to relieve pressure and eliminate any vacuum type effect that keeps water in?   If you follow Ed's diagram in the winterizing PDF that is posted and place the valves in the back in the winter position the water should drain completely from the Alde unit.  

ScottG

I can't give you a definitive answer, but after this experience, I lean toward draining the Alde first.

Additionally, I would first close the valve on the CW (blue) line leading into the Alde tank. This not only relieves pressure on the supply line (in which the Alde drain valve is located), it also provides reassurance that everything coming out is coming from the Alde.

Once I was sure the Alde was empty, I'd open the other valves, drain everything else, and blow the lines thoroughly.

ericnliz

Thanks, I think I'll try draining it first as it seems to make a difference in the way it drains. Mike, I tried to do it that way [After blowing out the lines] and it seemed to cause the problem with the in-line pressure valve as Scott stated above must be there to alleviate any back pressure to the Alde itself. Not sure if that is the case, but it made sense to me after I pressurized the cold water line to the Alde, and it drained. [Please note, I had to do it several times as when it lost pressure, the in-line valve would then close again until I re-pressurized it]

ScottG

Given that not many others are chiming in to report the same problem, I'm thinking this is not a common issue. The moral of my story--regardless of how you choose to approach winterizing--is make darn sure you get those three gallons out of the Alde before Jack Frost arrives!