Alde Water heater replacement

Paula

2016 T@b MaxS-On my last camping trip in October, I heard running water coming from the rear, bottom of the camper. When I looked under the camper, black hose was protruding from the bottom rear, driver's side and leaking water at a rapid rate. I disconnected the freshwater hose from the connection at the campsite and the leaking stopped. I then tried to fill the fresh water tank with water and the leaking started again. I have received horrible customer service from my local dealership, but eventually a mobile tech was sent out from my local dealership to diagnose the problem. Three months later after e-mailing Little Guy (because the dealership was unresponsive to my phone calls), the service department returned my call and the camper was diagnosed as needing a $1900.00 part for the Alde heating system. I did not purchase the extended warranty for my camper and am seriously questioning the diagnosis as I have no faith in this dealership. I'm considering driving 2.5 hours from Houston to a reputable dealership in Austin for a second opinion. 
Here is the email I sent to the Little Guy that, I assume, prompted the phone call from the dealership, Holiday World:

"Good morning! First off, I want to say that I love my T@B camper and have been traveling all over the U.S.! However, I am having a very poor experience from my local dealer, Holiday World of Houston-Katy. After returning from a camping trip in October, I contacted Holiday World about some service issues with my T@B that needed to be addressed. On Oct. 11, I called Holiday World Katy and talked to Dean and explained my issues. He told me I had the option of a mobile tech and that Tyler would call me and to set something up for Monday, Oct. 17. I did not hear from Tyler on Monday. On Oct. 18, I called Holiday World and left a message with Teresa to please have Dean call. He did not return my call. On Oct. 19, I called Holiday World and left message on Dean’s voicemail to please call me so we could set up the appointment with mobile tech. He did not return my call. On Oct. 20, I called and spoke with the receptionist, Teresa. Dean was out to lunch so I left a message with Teresa to have Dean call me which he did not. On Oct. 21, I called and spoke with Teresa. Dean was not available, but Teresa spoke to another manager and Dean returned my call 20 minutes later. He said Tyler would be getting in touch with me today to schedule my service. On Oct. 22, Tyler came out to my storage unit and wrote up a ticket for my issues. He was very thorough and professional and I felt confident that my camper would be repaired.

I also found out from Tyler that Dean never contacted Tyler about my initial phone call on the 11th. Dean also quoted me $50 service fee for the mobile tech, but the fee was $100.00.

Since I had not been contacted or updated about the work, I called Holiday World on Dec. 10 and spoke to Dean. He pulled my ticket and said he would "see what was going on" and return my call which he did not. On Jan. 7, I spoke with the receptionist,Sandra, to explain I never received call back and inquired about my camper. She took down my information and was going to have someone return my call which was not returned.

At this point, I have had to cancel two camping trips and am extremely frustrated and dissatisfied with the communication by the service department at Holiday World Katy. Even though I love my camper, I am now regretting my purchase. I'm not even sure I trust them to complete the work that needs to be done as they are extremely unprofessional. I believe they are the only dealership in my area that sells and services Little Guy Campers. I am considering driving the 2.5 hour drive to Austin to have it serviced at a reputable dealership.

I am hoping that you can provide with some insight on this issue.

Thank you."

I am extremely frustrated at this point. Does anyone have any suggestions or advice on what I should do next? I love my camper, but this is a nightmare. 

Paula 
Houston, TX

Dalehelman

I have had an issue of water coming out underneath as well. In my case I had taken off my pressure reducer when I hooked up to city water. There is apparently a pressure  release valve on the trailer. After  reinstalling the pressure reducer water flow   Stopped.

Paula

I just spoke to the service tech at the Austin dealership and that's exactly what he said! He was skeptical about the heater needing replaced. So now I'll be driving the three hours to Austin, but worth it for good service and a savings of $1900.00. 

ScottG

I'm sorry to hear about your frustrating circumstances. I can't offer much advice about working with dealerships, but I do know a little about the T@B's plumbing system.

There are several black hoses that protrude from the rear driver's side area. Most of them are drains. Any of these could be leaking water for a number of reasons, but I'm hard pressed to see how it could be caused by a $1900 Alde component.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you were right to question the diagnosis. I'd even say it seems pretty shady, though they certainly don't seem to be working too hard to take your money.

If you could describe the issue in a little more detail--particularly by providing a photo and specific description of where the leak is coming from--we might be able to help out with a fix.

Dalehelman

I really  doubt the Alde is the problem. I would call Alde direct. I think they are in Portland OR maybe Seattle. I here they have been very helpful.

Ratkity

I have to agree what @Dalehelman said. I accidentally put a backflow valve on the hose (not paying attention) and thought it was the same colored blue water pressure regulator. Those pex lines can't handle more than 50 psi max and when I attached the hose from my house spigot - SPLASH!!!! My poor T@Bitha was uncontrollably tinkling! Then (chagrinned) I realized what I had done and ran to the spigot to cut off the water. My water pressure in the house is pretty high (old house). Once I put the shiny new brass pressure regulator on, all was well. Phew. No damage. You'll be ok!!! 

Photomom

In the above picture there is a yellow thingy about half way down from the top and about one third of the way in from the left. In your trailer is that thingy as pictured or is it sticking up?

ChanW

Do you have a description or part number of what they say needs replacing?

jdargis

We had a defective water pump on our unit, which created high water pressure, which in turn blew water out the yellow Alde drain valve.  Didn't have any problem, when hooked to city water with a pressure regulator.  Interesting, ours is a 2015 Max S, which Ed said they got some bad water pumps at the time.

TabberJohn

Paula -- You might consider hooking things back up (fresh water hose with pressure regulator) and take a picture or two of that leak and post them here. It may turn out to be something simple we can walk you through fixing on your own.

ScottG

jdargis said:

We had a defective water pump on our unit, which created high water pressure, which in turn blew water out the yellow Alde drain valve.  Didn't have any problem, when hooked to city water with a pressure regulator.  Interesting, ours is a 2015 Max S, which Ed said they got some bad water pumps at the time.

I was wondering where the pressure relief occurred. There are limited possibilities, including the Alde drain valve or perhaps the valve/drain where the hot water line exits. @Dalehelman, did you notice where yours leaked from when you had your over-pressure issue? I'm just curious for future reference.

Photomom

The Alde owner manual refers to the yellow thingy as the safety/relief valve and describes opening it to drain the Alde, but doesn't say anything about the "safety" part. My theory is that has opened for some reason.

Hopefully the OP will return with the answers to our questions. It would be good to add this to our collective knowledge base. 

I can't imagine how her repair could cost $1900 unless they haven't a clue and want to replace the whole Alde.

ericnliz

The yellow flip valve is used to drain the hot water reservoir 3 gallon tank, not the Alde itself. If you follow the line back towards the front of the camper, you will find it goes to the water tank itself. I found this out when winterizing this past fall.

ChanW

ericnliz, I'm confused.

The 'hot water reservoir' in our Tab is inside the Alde.

What tank are you referring to, the fresh water tank?

ericnliz

ChanW, No, not the fresh water tank. If I remember correctly, I think ScottG and I had this discussion when we were both having trouble getting said tank to completely drain. In the picture above, down by the bottom of the floor on the left bottom corner of the picture, you will see a blue elbow going to the silver tank. That is the hot water reservoir tank for your hot water after it is heated by the Alde system.

Photomom

"Emptying the water heater. The boiler is fitted with a built-in hot water heater which can hold approximately 8.5 litres of freshwater. The hot water heater can produce around 12 litres of 40°C water per half-hour (at a cold water temperature of 10°C). If the electric elements are used instead of gas for heating the water heater, the capacity is slightly reduced. The water in the water heater must be drained at least once a month in order to create a new air cushion in the heater. The air cushion is used to absorb pressure surges in the heater. For emptying specially- adapted boilers, as well as the vehicle’s general freshwater system, please refer to the manufacturer’s instructions. NB! The hot water heater should always be drained completely when there is a risk of frost and when the vehicle is not in use. The warranty does not cover frost damage.

NB! Note that the water in the water heater can be hot.

Draining the heater using the combined safety/drain valve: (see page 15) Switch off the freshwater pump.
Open all water taps.

Then open the safety/drain valve by raising the yellow lever (M) to a vertical position, or by turning the knob (K) 180°. The heater will now drain directly below the vehicle through the safety/drain valve hose. Check that all the water is emptied (about 7-10 litres). Leave the valve in the open position until the next time the heater is used. NB! Check that the automatic non-return valve (N) is open and is allowing air to enter the heater when it is be- ing drained, and that the hose is not blocked." 

ScottG

Photomom said:

The Alde owner manual refers to the yellow thingy as the safety/relief valve...

Right--good catch!

TabberJohn

Photomom said:
Leave the [yellow safety/drain] valve in the open position until the next time the [water] heater is used. 

Did not realize you were supposed to do that.

ericnliz

Photomom, I'm just speaking from a practical application stand point. I read the same directions as you have described above, and the tank would NOT completely drain following said directions. There were no obstructions, and the ONLY way I could get it to drain was to put air pressure to the lines via the fresh water fill using a pressure regulator, closing all the other valves, but opening the center bypass valves while leaving the flip valve in the vertical position. I only did this after several unsuccessful attempts following the directions. I could [at the most] only get 1 gallon to drain following those directions no matter how many attempts I made. I don't know if you personally winterized your trailer using the blow-out method or not, but several of us here did, and a few of us ran into the problem of that tank not completely draining. I'm just relaying my own personal experience, and hands-on following every hose and drain in the system.

Photomom

Don't want to get into winterizing, but I know for a fact that if the yellow thingy is open water will come out under the trailer, doesn't matter if it's coming from the Alde or the water lines. This would be the the first thing I'd check if I were the OP. Occam's razor and all that.

ScottG

Photomom said:

...
"Check that the automatic non-return valve (N) is open and is allowing air to enter the heater when it is being drained, and that the hose is not blocked." 

Another good catch from the Alde manual. If I may stay off-topic for a bit, I suspect this is the valve responsible for the Alde tank draining problems ericnliz and I experienced last fall. Problem is, I can't identify any way to manually control the valve, or even to check if it is open.

Ultimately the only way I could reliably confirm that I had drained the tank was to heat the water in the Alde, and then make sure 2-3 gallons of hot water drained out under the trailer when I opened the valve. A real PITA.

Coming back on topic, I suspect that this "safety/drain valve" is designed to open automatically if the system pressure is too high. (That's the "safety" part.) I also expect it would automatically close once the pressure is released--the yellow handle simply allows you to block the valve open for the purposes of draining the Alde tank.

Even if the safety/drain valve was damaged and leaking, I'll bet the cost to replace it is closer to $1.90 than $1900!

Photomom

ScottG said:

Coming back on topic, I suspect that this "safety/drain valve" is designed to open automatically if the system pressure is too high. (That's the "safety" part.) I also expect it would automatically close once the pressure is released...

I can't find much about how it works although this page http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=13 says "The safety drain valve automatically opens at 3.5 bar. To drain the fresh water you just flick the yellow switch upwards. It should be mounted on the fresh water pipe to the boiler." Who knows what the failure mode of this thing is? Perhaps it does not close once pressure is released. And if it fails altogether, the correct thing for it to do is to fail open (like ChanW's thermal cutout doodad.)

We are cautioned to use a 50 psi pressure regulator on our water inlet. Is "3.5bar" another way of specifying water pressure? I'm not familiar with that term.

Photomom

Oh, look at that. 3.5 bar is almost exactly 50psi.

http://www.asknumbers.com/bars-to-psi.aspx

So so it looks like the yellow thingy is not just a drain. It protects the Alde boiler if you fail to use a pressure regulator. (Your pipes may still explode, however.)

Michigan_Mike

Paula said:

I am extremely frustrated at this point. Does anyone have any suggestions or advice on what I should do next? I love my camper, but this is a nightmare. 

Paula 
Houston, TX

Hi Paula,  I sent a note on to Little Guy regarding your issue and sent you a personal message too.  

Ratkity

Photomom said:

Oh, look at that. 3.5 bar is almost exactly 50psi.

http://www.asknumbers.com/bars-to-psi.aspx

So so it looks like the yellow thingy is not just a drain. It protects the Alde boiler if you fail to use a pressure regulator. (Your pipes may still explode, however.)

I've been told the water lines can flex and handle a bit more pressure (compared to water lines in campers of old), but the elbows and other fittings tend to freeze and break. At least the fittings on my old popup were the things that failed on me over time. I did have a hot water line to my clothes washer split - not an explosion, but the words I used while doing the clean-up were explosive.

ChanW

I understand now what your saying, ericnliz. I thought you were talking about a tank that's separate from the Alde.

I've never opened up that part of the Alde, but I had it in my mind that the 2.5gal of hot water in the Alde was simply the capacity of the water-jacket that surrounds the heat exchanger where the water is heated up. It might just be my great imagination at work. 

ericnliz said:

ChanW, No, not the fresh water tank. If I remember correctly, I think ScottG and I had this discussion when we were both having trouble getting said tank to completely drain. In the picture above, down by the bottom of the floor on the left bottom corner of the picture, you will see a blue elbow going to the silver tank. That is the hot water reservoir tank for your hot water after it is heated by the Alde system.

Paula

Wow, I really appreciate all the feedback! There are definitely some knowledgeable folks on here. I haven't heard back from the Houston dealership, but I spoke with Cody at the Austin, Texas dealership and am headed there on Jan. 21. My camper is currently in storage and I'm having foot surgery tomorrow so I will be hobbling around for awhile. After the problem is diagnosed, I will post an update. 

ScottG

Photomom said:

Oh, look at that. 3.5 bar is almost exactly 50psi.

http://www.asknumbers.com/bars-to-psi.aspx

So so it looks like the yellow thingy is not just a drain. It protects the Alde boiler if you fail to use a pressure regulator. (Your pipes may still explode, however.)

The entire plumbing system is continuous. Assuming it does what it says it does, the yellow thingy should protect your pipes as well as your Alde!

Photomom

Hopefully the OP will return and let us know what the problem and fix turns out to be! A few of us here like to dig into things and understand how they work.

Photomom

ScottG said:

Photomom said:

Oh, look at that. 3.5 bar is almost exactly 50psi.

http://www.asknumbers.com/bars-to-psi.aspx

So so it looks like the yellow thingy is not just a drain. It protects the Alde boiler if you fail to use a pressure regulator. (Your pipes may still explode, however.)

The entire plumbing system is continuous. Assuming it does what it says it does, the yellow thingy should protect your pipes as well as your Alde!

Good point! Still using my regulator though!

ericnliz

Just to clarify my fix to the problem of the tank not draining completely, I had a 50# regulator on the fresh water fill, and regulated my compressor to 50# also. Didn't start at the 50#, started at 35#, regulated through the compressor, and went with 5# increments until I reached the max of 50# when the drain finally started to properly drain. I would have done like [I believe, again ScottG] Scott did, and refill the tank completely again, but I had already shut my outside water off, and blown out all of THOSE lines, so I had to think outside the box, or start all over again by turning the outside water back on.
ChanW, I know you do a lot of tinkering, as do I when things just aren't what they should be. As far as I'm concerned, if you're going to learn how it works, 'ya gotta get yer hands dirty!