Alde Winter Report

Nomad

Currently 19 degrees (going to 12) with 30mph winds and the best I can get out of the Alde is 64 degrees.

Anyone else used their Alde in the bitter cold?

Nomad

Should add that I'm hooked into shore power.

ChanW

Pxl, we used ours at 0°-5°F in the wind, only using electric, w/o propane. Worked very well.

We did have a problem earlier tho, with the wind blowing into the Tab via the 3-way fridge 'waste heat' vent (the one that's right outside the door, behind the door when it's open). That vent can be closed up in the winter. We've put a rubbermaid-type of tray over it on the outside, but duct tape would work in a pinch.

Also, we found that the bedding blocked the rear heat from getting into the living space. If you open the rear shelf, to allow the heat out, it helps a lot.

-- 

Chan

Nomad

Gonna have to give that a try - There's also a breeze coming in around the air conditioner.

Am going to get at both the radiators and fashion something to direct all the heat out the slots - alot of heat ends up under the passenger side seat and the back shelf.

For tonight I'm supplementing by firing up the stove for a few minutes.

Also going to get a small heater for the floor area - that feels like it's about 30 degrees.

ChanW

Pxl,

I've got to say it. 

Using the stove for heat can kill you. 

Be careful.

Yes, the a/c is the other place we had a little breeze to deal with. I forgot. I pulled the grill off and taped a plastic cover over it and reinstalled it, then removed the plastic in the spring. It's one of those things I've been meaning to get to, sealing the crack around the a/c trim, inside the trailer. It seems some weatherstripping is all it needs.

Careful of that CO.

-- 

Chan

Nomad

I'm not using the cooktop for nearly as long as cooking or making coffee so I think I'm sake :-) 

judymac

ChanW, are you using your frig when you have this vent blocked? Also, does that shelf in the back raise up? Gotta try that again. I haven't had window air conditioners and I am wondering if those winter covers would suffice?

DurangoTaB

PXL...why only shore power and not propane? From the notes I've gotten from Alde/Sweden (which I presume you have) and other postings the heater just doesn't have enough oomph on 110V (it was designed for 220V in Europe), and you'd get a lot more BTU/hr using propane...

ChanW

Pxl, here's a pic of the cover I used. I think it's the top to a refrigerator-dish from the grocery store. I attached it with a couple of home made hooks that hook onto the vent, then tighten down. (There's gotta be a better way to attach it...)

JudyMac: we don't use the fridge much, especially in the cooler months. I wouldn't block that vent with a cover if you're using the fridge, unless you've created another way for the 'waste heat' to get out of the fridge compartment (like venting it into the Tab).

Durango: My understanding of the Alde docs is that it's more efficient/higher btu with electric, but if you switch on both electric and propane then the propane will give the electric a boost until the boiler is up to operating temperature. I didn't see anything about the difference between 110V & 220V. Did I miss something?

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Chan

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Nomad

DurangoTab - Have tried it both ways and no difference - woke up to 58 degrees. I was under the impression though (as Chan mentions) that the Alde defaults to electric when hooked up. But if you have it on propane it gives it an initial boost till it gets to temp and then switches. Saves your propane that way.

Chan - If you block the fridge vent, wouldn't the heat just vent into the tab from the grill on the bottom of the fridge where all the cold air is ultimately coming in?

Nomad

An interesting occurance is that upon getting up I adjusted the thermostat to the "comfort" setting (down from 4.5) and it's now heating up - currently 65 degrees) - Hmmmmm, flaky thermostat?

I would think it would run almost continually - like a house furnace - if the thermostat was set to 5 but noticed that it didn't seem to fire up any more often than on the "comfort" setting.

Michigan_Mike

Might be your thermostat and maybe it was defective right out of the box?   If your trailer is under warranty they will correct this for you via your dealer.  If not, call the factory and I'm sure they will be able to help you out. 

Something that I do to combat this at home is "move the air" around.  It gets cold in my family room and I reverse the ceiling fan, pull the air upwards from the floor area and basically am mixing the "upper" warmer air that sits up on the ceiling.  If you had a small fan that you could either mount higher up, blow the warmer air down and mix with the cooler air below you'd have a warmer environment.  That is the challenge with these trailers because heat rises and we are located below it.  So when it gets cold and we run heating devices inside these small areas it becomes even more important to take the heat generated and move it around (point a fan skyward) and mix it with the colder air permeating the lower areas of the trailer.  Otherwise if you don't, you end up actually making it too hot inside and the furnace or heater struggle to keep up when the thermostat calls for heat (no doubt higher up on the wall or an electric heater on the floor, etc.) and via the resulting change in temperature when things cool down.  I struggle with this in my trailer and it's not fun.... 

Nomad

Thanks Mike - I was taking the temp reading from roughly the air conditioner height - it was much colder down by the floor.

Here's maybe a clue - Found ice sickles laying on the ground below the Alde vent - Could the moisture in the vent be freezing and blocking the exhaust and the Alde shuts down - Then the residule heat melts the blockage, the moisture dribbles down the outside forming the sickle and the Alde (no longer sufficated) starts up again?

Michigan_Mike

Anything is possible.....  I sent a note on to the factory and will see what they say?   personally, I would give Ed Kaufman a call as he should be able to ferret out your problem and make things right.  Contact numbers are listed to the right, via the discussion area listings. 

ChanW

Pxl, yes, with the outside vent blocked, the excess fridge heat ends up inside the Tab (good in winter!), but the fridge works better with this vent higher up, above the cooling fins, so the cool air can come in the bottom and the warm air can go out the top. The fridge might not work very well without some kind of upper vent (inside or outside) to help the fins cool.

There's actually a little fan in there, positioned near the fins, that draws the cool air through the fins, theoretically directing the warm air up toward the vent. You can see this if you remove the front plastic cover to the left of the door.

-- 

Chan

2014 'S' Maxx

DurangoTaB

Chan...see comments from Sweden below, looks like 3X the BTUs with propane, but I agree with Mike that something odd is going on with Pxl's heating problem. We've only had the T@B down to about 30 and the Alde cranked out plenty of heat (boondocking on gas). Hello Mr Watson, I really do hope you will learn to love our little system, I will do my best to help you. First of all the power difference on propane versus electric is quite big. You have 18.700 Btu on propane (5.500W) but only about 6500 Btu (1900W) on electric so it will take a little longer for it to heat up on just electric. The mentions of 230V is for the European spec heater as we use 230V here, however the Amp is much lower (between 10-16A tops) so the power outage is roughly the same. We are doing our best to train and educate the dealers all across North America about the Alde system so in the future they should be able to give you more information and help about it and how it works. You are of course always welcome to contact us directly or through our American company Alde US if you have any further questions or concerns.   Regarding your questions; 1. You can bleed the system, this can very well be the problem if the circulation is poor. Heat up the system, turn off the circulation pump and gently open up the bleeding valves oine by one, be sure to have a piece of cloth under the nozzle as glycol fluid might come out. Make sure all the bleeding valves are securely closed after you are done and start the pump again, please keep an eye on the glycol level in the expansion tank as it might be lower than recommended. Refill as needed. 2. The level should be about half an inch above the Min line in the tank when the system is cold. If you need to control the antifreeze capability of the liquid there should be affordable testers at Home Depot or similar stores, it´s similar to car glycol. 3. 110V at 30A gives you a maximum output of 3.300W, the heater has 1900W maximum so that should not be the problem. However you mention a 15A extension cord, the longer the cord the more voltage loss you get. So in the end the heater might just get 100V or even 90V which affects the overall wattage. 4. Yes, as I mentioned in the beginning of the email you have a lot more power on propane. The most efficient way of heating up the system, especially if it´s cold, is to turn it on with propane and electric until it has reached the desired temperature, then turn off the propane and use electric to maintain the heat. I can also mention that the heater always prioritize electric over propane so if you activate both sources it will always try to keep the propane usage to a minimum. I hope this has helped you, have a nice day and a great weekend. Best Regards Henrik Thulin

ChanW

Durango, thank you. That's excellent information. 

I guess I misunderstood their statement about the electric being the priority.

That's a great help. Thanks.

-- 

Chan

DurangoTaB

Sorry for the cut n paste formatting problems...

RetAF

I don't know for sure, but how about applying some of that "magnetic tape" to the area around the vents and placing a thin metal with rubber seal on that area? It may be worth a try, it'd be economical.

ChanW

Hmmm. Now that's a whole different approach. Much better than my hooks, for holding the cover on that we're using. 

Maybe a small rare-earth magnet at each corner of the cover... Or velcro.

jkjenn

Yeah, I would check the Alde fluid, make sure the radiators don't need bleeding and check the fuses. You should be doing better. I find it heats up a lot faster with both propane and shore power as indicated by J.D.

I am planning to try my T@b with the Alde in the real cold over the next couple of weeks. I am very excited about winter camping! 

Nomad

jkjenn - Checked again and the fluid is between the marks. As far as I can tell, there's just one bleed valve, acquardly positioned with the spout facing the back shelf wall - opened that, got some fluid but from my experience in my house bleeding the system you'd need to run a lot of fluid out if there's an air bubble down the line somewhere so quit that.  The Alde runs so it's probably not a fuse.

Gonna call Ed and see what he has to say - Could be that it's a faulty thermostat so it just doesn't keep it running long enough. Doesn't seem to make a difference if I turn it all the way up or leave it at the comfort zone. I would think it'd run more often (or for longer) on the higher setting until it reached temp. It was 60 in here this morning when I checked and after running for a couple hours now it's just up to 65.

Sgtjohn

And someone mentioned earth magnets which are very powerful.  I like to keep what's new as new looking as possible and as long as possible.   Th agnatic tape when the vent is uncovered might be unsightly-but if one epoxied a couple of those strong magnets to the vent and then found a piece of metal a little larger than the vent and put some door "foam" insulation around the edges and viola!  no air leaks.  I think I'm going to try that, but where to find that piece of metal...?  An old furnace plenum or maybe even formica and put a magnet on both the vent and the formica....always thinking..

As an afterthought, those plastic clips that hold the valance on our blinds broke so I epoxied some magnets on the valance and it works great to hold the valances to the blind.

RetAF said:

I don't know for sure, but how about applying some of that "magnetic tape" to the area around the vents and placing a thin metal with rubber seal on that area? It may be worth a try, it'd be economical.

Nomad

Update: Talked to Ed and we think it's narrowed down to a bad thermostat - He's shipping me a new one so we'll see what happens once that's here and installed.

ChanW

PXLated said:

Gonna have to give that a try - There's also a breeze coming in around the air conditioner.

Am going to get at both the radiators and fashion something to direct all the heat out the slots - alot of heat ends up under the passenger side seat and the back shelf.

For tonight I'm supplementing by firing up the stove for a few minutes.

Also going to get a small heater for the floor area - that feels like it's about 30 degrees.

PXL, about that ac-unit breeze...

I went ahead and sealed around the inside of the unit with weather-stripping. But now I see that the only way to completely stop that cold air from entering into the Tab in there, is to cover the ac's outside grill in some way. 

The problem is that inside the ac box, there's a small cut-out (maybe 6" square?) that goes into the wall cavity between the ac unit and the shower, so the air ends up blowing right into that wall cavity. The wall cavity's open all the way down into the seat-box, and the air also goes around behind the shower and toilet. 

You can't see this opening without pulling the ac unit from the box (hard to do without damaging the foil 'ducting'). You might be able to see it if you pop the grill off the outside.

Also, about your idea of bringing the heat up from under the bed, to above the seats... Any luck? 

I was trying to figure out some kind of 'channeling' that might bring the heat up from beneath the bed, maybe a 1" slot with a 'standoff' that fit between the mattress and the wall? I didn't get far with the idea, obviously. 

jkjenn

There are screw on the outside A/C vent cover, so you can attach magnets to the screws. You could attach a cover using those small rare earth magnets. It is going to the low 20's tonight, so I will plan on sleeping in the T@b at home tonight. I wanted to get out and camp, but I have too much to do.

jkjenn

I knew it was going to be our coldest night of the year, so far last night so I planned to sleep in the T@b. Actually, I had hoped to take it out on a trip, but, alas, I have some things for work that need to be done this weekend.

I went out at about 7:00 PM to turn on the heat. I set it electric only and the temp to level 4. I checked on it an hour or so later and it was definitely heating very slowly. I noticed the craftiness at that point, but I think it was mostly because I leave the vent cracked. At that point, I also turned on the propane and turned the thermostat back to room temperature (the circle). I returned around midnight to find it nice and toasty. I turned the thermostat down to just below room temperature at bed time, because I prefer a cooler room. I keep my house (also with radiant heat) at about 63.  The temperature held consistent all night and I awoke to a warm and toasty T@b. The coldest spot, I found, was definitely around the floor. I did not notice air blowing through the A/C vent, but I have the A/C vent pointed away from the normal wind direction. Same with the fridge. So, maybe that is a tip. If possible, point the T@b so that the door is facing the wind. I think a rug would also be another way to help keep it a bit warmer.

We are going to really have some very cold weather over the next 2 weeks, so I will try it when it drops to the lower teens and/or below, too.

ChanW

Good idea, Jenn.

jkjenn said:

There are screw on the outside A/C vent cover, so you can attach magnets to the screws. You could attach a cover using those small rare earth magnets. It is going to the low 20's tonight, so I will plan on sleeping in the T@b at home tonight. I wanted to get out and camp, but I have too much to do.

judymac

Thanks for the report.

Nomad

jkjenn -Even though both the air and fridg leak cold air, in my case there was far more cold air coming in through the fridg vent than air so facing the door into the wind would have made mine worse. I was actually somewhat protected from the direct 30mph wind. I made some little strips from 1/4" dense foam that I can now insert into the fridg vent slots if it becomes a problem again.

Nomad

12 degrees with winds 20-30 directly into the door side - Lots of cold out the bottom of the fridg - Foam strips now in place and toasty warm again.