UCamp 18 rally ( replace your rear stabilizers with true scissor levelers)

Dalehelman

It’s kind a like the owners manual for my new car. It contains more yellow warning boxes. Than usable information. 

BrianZ

Well, I hope my "T@B landing" won't be anything like Apollo 13, @Dalehelman.  Surely people are already using these jacks combined with the tongue jack to keep the wheels off the ground for maintenance or to change a tire, right?  For this purpose, is the tongue jack doing all the lifting, just like was described elsewhere using the stock stabilizers?  I would expect these Jack's to be much stronger than stock stabilizers for both supporting & lifting.

@ScottG, I'd like to see what those frame extensions look compared to the main frame & how they connect.  It sounds like there may have been some concern about their strength for holding half of the trailer's weight, but for leveling would some weight still be on at least one wheel?

Here's another discovery I just made.. 
I ordered using Dale's Amazon link for the Ultra-Fab jacks, but the mounting plates are a bit different from his photos in size, shape & hole pattern.  The hole spacing is different, so the 5-3/4" spacing in the diagram drawing won't work.  Glad I waited to drill the holes..

I plan to use the diagonal pair so the jack's cranking nut will be angled closer towards the outside for easier access, provided it doesn't stick out too far.  These appear to be the only choices that would keep the jack centered on the frame.

Dalehelman

@BrianZ
You are correct it should be 5 1/4” not 5 3/4”. 

ScottG

BrianZ said:

...
@ScottG, I'd like to see what those frame extensions look compared to the main frame & how they connect.  It sounds like there may have been some concern about their strength for holding half of the trailer's weight, but for leveling would some weight still be on at least one wheel?
...

Just go out and take a look at where your existing rear stabilizers are attached and it should be obvious. It will look a bit like two steel ears extending back from the main frame. I can't begin to tell you their load rating, but they look reasonably robust, and I'm not aware of anyone bending or breaking one yet.

BrianZ

@ScottG, here is what I see underneath after removing the stabilizers.  Arrows point to the three mounting bolts, but only the forward one goes through the visible frame (it's kind of hidden behind a drainage tube opening).  The two bolts at the rear that are used in Dale's mod to mount the new Jack's do not go through that same frame piece, but come from underneath & through the black vapor barrier wrap.  I dont know what those two bolts are mounted to, but it's not obvious at all..

BrianZ

I also got my first adapter plate made & fitted to the mounting bolts, including the square hole with elevator bolt.  A 7/16" titanium drill bit was perfect for drilling all three holes, including  the one for the elevator bolt, which I filed square using a small triangular file.

Dalehelman

@BrianZ
Thats gust the way it should look. There is a cross member that the 2 rear stabilizer studs are mounted to which supports the weight. 
The adapters are mainly there to hold the jacks when they are in th up position. When extended weight and the bolts keep them in place. Looks great.

Dalehelman

I wish I had some of those fancy little  arrows.😃😃

BrianZ

Thank you for confirming, @Dalehelman, as I would have some doubts if the only steel frame support was that half inch end of the extension that passes under the edge of the adapter plate.  I got the impression from feeling along that back edge that there must be a cross piece of metal framing behind the black plastic, and because the two metal bolts must be anchored into something sturdy, plus in the center there is the tire mounting stud that must also be bolted into some framing, even though it's not visible either.
PS: 
The "fancy little arrows" are part of the drawing tools in my android Photo Editor app (by developer McGyver).

ScottG

BrianZ said:

@ScottG, here is what I see underneath after removing the stabilizers.  Arrows point to the three mounting bolts, but only the forward one goes through the visible frame (it's kind of hidden behind a drainage tube opening).  The two bolts at the rear that are used in Dale's mod to mount the new Jack's do not go through that same frame piece, but come from underneath & through the black vapor barrier wrap.  I dont know what those two bolts are mounted to, but it's not obvious at all..

Yep, that's what mine looks like--the long skinny parts pointing backward are the extensions I referred to in which the tracks of the original stabilizers sit. I hadn't noticed the extensions stop short of the bolts, nor have I investigated what those bolts are attached to, but it's clear the extensions supported the load on original stabilizers. I remain skeptical of putting a load on only those bolts, but it appears the adapter plate serves in part to transfer the load of the jacks to the ends of the frame extensions.

BrianZ

Here's something I found amusing..
Thought I would compare the size of our T@B's new "Ultra-Fab" 24" scissor jacks to the tire changing jack that came with our TV..

And the car weighs three times what the T@B weighs.  To be fair, I did notice that the car jack is made with a bit thicker gauge steel. 

Dalehelman

@BrianZ
Are you planing on using a cordless drill?

BrianZ

The car jack has it's own crank handle, but yes for the trailer, @Dalehelman, why?  I have this one for the trailer, which so far seems to work well enough..
https://m.lowes.com/pd/DEWALT-20-Volt-Max-1-2-in-Cordless-Brushless-Drill/1000135807
It does have range of clutch settings plus a switch for two torque levels, so seems it should be safe enough as far as not overtorquing the jack (at least when not using the one setting made for drilling, which has the highest torque without clutch engaged).
Yesterday I made the second plate & installed the second jack, so this project appears to be finished.

BrianZ

After further review of factory tour photos & videos shared in other threads, I found this view of the T@B320 rear which sheds more light on the supporting structures hidden under the black plastic..


This view of the upside-down rear floor & chassis shows the frame extension at right, on which the stabilizer is about to be mounted, and the floor underneath.  Inside the floor is a rectangular metal tube frame sandwiched between layers of Azdel, plus a piece of what appears to be a 2x4 attached at the rear (which I presume is cut at an angle for mounting the rear wall & roof.  As he explained in his T@B400 video, they put a piece of wood inside the metal frame in order to anchor screws.  I can also see what appears to be a spot weld where the two metal tubes meet at 90°.  

Most important, it appears the metal floor frame passes under(or over) the end of the trailer frame extension, and the two rear mounting bolts for the stock stabilizers do not appear to have been installed yet. I presume they must be hanger bolts that are screwed into the wood piece at the rear, and not a metal frame.  This may have significant  implications with regard to how I replaced my rear stabilizers with scissor jacks for leveling. 

@Dalehelman, when I did your leveler jacks mod, I was assuming that those rear mounting bolts went into a metal frame, but this appears to show our adapter plate & jacks are mounted underneath wood & screws into wood, and only minimally supported by metal framing where a half inch of the plate overlaps the end of the frame.  It also appears to depend partly, if not largely, on the strength of the wood crosspiece. I don't know at which locations the wood is anchored to the metal frame, but that could also be very important when it comes to how much trailer weight this mounting can support.  And then there's that minimal spot weld in the metal floor frame, and if that framing is aluminum, it's not as strong as steel, but at least it passes under the trailer's steel frame.

I hope I am wrong about my new doubts with the strength of this mounting method, but after seeing these construction details, I will definitely not consider using the jacks for lifting & probably not even for holding up the trailer rear for any tire changing.  I feel the original stabilizer mounts would be stronger for that static support method using the tongue jack, because they were mounted under the full length of the trailer chassis frame extension.  Limited leveling & stabilizing may be all I'd be comfortable with at this point, unless we can figure out some way to fashion an adapter plate with greater support under the main chassis frame.  I do like these new jacks very much & would like to use them to their full potential, if possible.

[Note: The above screenshot is a minor part of the original video and used here for commentary & education, which qualifies as "fair use" under U.S. copyright law.  Acknowledgement of the source is included.]

PS:
After looking again at the previously posted photo of underneath our T@B, you can follow the edge of the wood where it meets the metal in the surface impression of the black plastic.  If you follow it across, it appears the spare tire mount is fastened by hanger bolts going into the metal frame inside the floor, which rests on the ends of the chassis frame extension.

Dalehelman

My only comment is I have been using mine for almost 5years now with no negatives. All cupboards and cabinet doors are still working properly. This mod has been questioned several times in the past. I would not want anyone who is not comfortable with this mod to use it. To date I have helped several with it and no one to my knowledge have had any issues. I would not have attempted this mod if the factory authorized method for tire and brake service was not to support the weight on the rear stabilizers. To my knowledge there have been no problems reported to the factory using this method. I have heard that method is no longer in the owners manual, but I know of no warnings against it. I still contend it is the safest way to service tires and brakes.

BrianZ

So, Dale, are you saying that you can use the mod scissor jacks fully extended with the tongue jack to lift the wheels off the ground, as can be done with the stock stabilizers? 

My concern is that the mod jacks are only attached to wood support that is neither under the trailer's steel frame nor attached to it; whereas the original stabilizers were both fully under the frame along their entire length & bolted to it at one end.  To provide a similar strength of support, I would expect that the adapter mounting plate would need to extend much farther under the trailer frame and be bolted to it, rather than only be bolted to a 2x4 that is attached to an aluminum frame in the floor.  I see the original stabilizers as a stronger support, because of the mounting method.

My fear would be that if the wood were to break, then the end of the frame might slip off of the edge of the adapter plate, since the plate & jack are not bolted to the trailer frame, and only one end of the plate is under the frame.

LSkrabut

@BrianZ,  would a bracket or flat plate cut/welded to the approx. size of the BAL Stabilizer in a "T" shape then bolted into the old stabilizer mounting points be enough bracing the "T" in support for the back of a T@B (even a 400)?

BrianZ

@LSkrabut, that's the type of custom adapter that I'm now considering having custom fabricated by a welding shop, but it would be more like a double TT, as one welded piece to fit both sides.  It could be bolted onto all of the original mounting bolts in the same manner as the original stabilizers, but with a single mounting bar going across the entire width at the rear for mounting the jacks at each end.

One piece would resist the twisting or lever effect of the current adapter which has the mounting spot offset towards the opposite end from where the adapter is bolted into the wood.  A single bar across the back could also make use of the two mounting bolts in the center that are leftover from an unused spare tire mount.  Most of the length of the three straight segments could also have a 90° angle structure whereever possible for resistance to bending. 

Those are my latest thoughts on what I think would be the best solution, but more study of details is needed.  I have not studied how a 400 is built, but perhaps a similar approach could be used.

Dalehelman

When I first brought up this idea about 4 years ago. Many of these same issues were discussed. Bottom line someone contacted Pleasant Valley and ask their opinion. At that time They had a video showing how to change a tire. The video showed placing two jack stands adjacent to the two rear mounting mounting bolts of the stabilizers. At that time the factory saw know problem with using scissor jacks in place of stabilizers. 

BrianZ

Thanks, @Dalehelman, that's interesting, though not surprising, as the stabilizers do make a very solid connection directly under a long piece of the frame, so if jacks were under the stabilizers or the frame, that should be quite sturdy.  I don't see any problem with using scissor jacks like these very sturdy ones we have in your mod to support the rear weight of the trailer in a similar manner, provided they are fully supporting the trailer's frame like the factory stabilizers do. 
 
What I'm questioning is the manner of mounting them with no attachment to the trailer frame & only a minimal amount of indirect support under the frame with attachments only to wood that is not connected to or supporting the trailer frame.  If we could get an adapter plate that also bolts to the frame & supports it for a greater length, then I believe it would be much more solid & independent of wood strength.

Dalehelman

Uncle 

ericnliz

I said that three comments ago!
@BrianZ, I've used mine several times on VERY un-even ground with no issues. Sometimes 'ya just have to have a little faith in the T@B University Professor!

BrianZ

Not sure what "uncle" means, but guessing an inside joke.  Guess I'll move on to find a plan B.  Thanks for all you've done, Dale, to help us enjoy our T@B's.

Dalehelman

Know mater what we do there is always room for improvement. 

dinzzy

Are the clam shells different underneath as to how the jacks may be supported?

Dalehelman

As far as I know T@B CS rear stabilizers can be used to support the weight of the trailer in conjunction with the tongue jack for the purpose of tire and wheel servicing. Just like the non CS. That being said I would call NüCamp to find out if that is correct. If you find that to be incorrect feel free to mail them back to me for a refund.

Dalehelman

In the 4 years I have been leveling our trailer it has never been necessary to lift one or both wheels off of the ground. I am only trying to level the trailer not suspend it in mid air even if it is possible.

dinzzy

I’ve used the stabilizers with the wheel jack several times to lift my wheels off the ground to check the brakes and grease the bearings.  All went well.  When under the trailer it appears the frame goes almost to the end of the stabilizer.  I haven’t seen your bracket yet but if it supports the new jack and distributes the weight to the frame I don’t see a problem.

I can see why you called uncle.

dinzzy

I trust you Dale.  No refund necessary!  I’ve seen your many mods.  They are thought out and work well.  Erin has also used your new jack mod and loves it.  I look forward to not using that Bal Leveler.  It will be easier to level and I have less to pack and take with me.

ericnliz

I used mine for the past four days, no issues at all. AND it makes the trailer a LOT more stable.