Can you ever have too much truck?

JohnDanielsCPA

Evidently, yes.  Someone posted a comment that there is a sticker on the side of the frame tongue that indicates you should not tow a T@B 320S with anything bigger than a 3/4 ton truck or van.  I called NuCamp to clarify this.  The problem is 1 ton+ trucks have suspensions that are too stiff to pull a small trailer like a T@B.  Without flex, all of the road stress (bumps, sway, etc.) goes directly to the tongue of the T@B.  Over time, that stress could cause problems with the frame.  In lower weight cars/trucks, the road stress is shared between the vehicle’s suspension and the T@B. 

Sharon_is_SAM

That’s a good reminder.  We all fixate on the minimum requirements and forget about the upper limits.  Now I wonder about the TVs of the TaBs with frame cracks.  

JohnDanielsCPA

That was my thought as well.  I’ve been pulling my T@B for the last year behind an F350 dually diesel truck.  Guess I had better take a close look at that frame!

Photomom

That’s interesting. I’ve seen that before and wondered why. 

Tabster

A true case of bigger is not always better!

mrsreeves

Hi there! I'm late to the party! I'm picking up a 2016 t@b 320 S Sofitel on Friday and towing with a 2014 F-350 diesel. Came across this thread and I'm slightly concerned now. Did anyone ever get more info on this?

DougH

But a cheap 120V flux core welder fits easily with a 20A generator in the back of a 1 ton long bed.  After a few on the road frame repairs and 10lbs worth of fresh 75kpsi steel on the weak points it'd be set for anything but rock climbing? 

ChanW

  see? There's a solution to every problem! (With a big enough truck!) 

DougH said:

But a cheap 120V flux core welder fits easily with a 20A generator in the back of a 1 ton long bed.  After a few on the road frame repairs and 10lbs worth of fresh 75kpsi steel on the weak points it'd be set for anything but rock climbing? 

Luckyj

Pull tye truck bed, remove the axle from the TD, cut the tongue et Voilà, a T@B truck camper!  

WilliamA

I'm late to this one.  Speaking only for myself, if I had a one ton, I'd simply get a soft-ride suspension hitch insert. They come in lots of flavors and weight ratings from simple torsion cushions up to fully adjustable air-bag units.  They are spendy, but much less than a new truck...

WilliamA

dragonsdofly

We think you absolutely CAN have too much truck! We have been towing our 2017 t@b 320 S with a GMC Envoy XL since purchase.  The Envoy's tow rating is 5,000 lbs, tongue weight 500 lbs. The t@b rode smoothly. No contents displacement, no upset, nothing broken, etc. Since the purchase of our Silverado 2500hd, we've towed at least 10,000 miles. The above wondow valances have come apart, mugs have broken and all spices and kitchen utensils are always thrown throughout the trailer. The suspension of the 2500hd is reinforced and strengthened. It has a 30,000 lb capacity gooseneck hitch in the bed, used by the previous owner. It is kicking the stuffing out of the t@b. Like playing crack the whip. I feel badly for the t@b. I don't think we'll do much major towing this way again. Knowing the stiffness of this particular truck, we towed with 1,100 to 1,500 lbs of gear in the bed, including 100 gallons of bottled water. It didn't dampen the ride at all or make the ride any easier. We're going to tow the t@b long distance with the Envoy. Much safer and better for the t@b. Btw, the big truck was purchased in 2019 with the intent and purpose of full timing in a larger RV, possibly the Avia, or something similar. Lessons learned. We hope not to abuse our t@b again. -Denise

N7SHG_Ham

I tow with a Ram 2500, heavy combo when towing the 400. I am right at GVW on the truck. This combo drives and tows well and have not observed anything getting thrashed in the trailer.

On Rams of my vintage, the 3500 added dual wheels and maybe a little more spring pack, but I think axle and frames are the same.

I think it depends, newer trucks are getting higher and higher GCVW ratings and mine is older with a lower rating. The Rams in my vintage were heavy empty and this one is my work truck with tools, I am over 8000 on the truck 💯 of the time. That with a heavy hitch of the 400 adds another 500 to the truck pushing it right to gross weight rating. That may help with ride and harshness. I honestly would rather put 500 miles of windshield time in the truck than most cars, I am less tired at end of day.

Of course I am meeting the NuCamp 3/4 ton and less requirements, but obviously a differing outcome than @dragonsdofly has experienced both with 2500 trucks.

mreric

https://www.amazon.com/CURT-40047-RockerBall-Cushion-Diameter/dp/B07YXJ73KY/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_5_2/132-5771681-1199635?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07YXJ73KY&pd_rd_r=25369a0b-525e-4efd-a6ff-0474c0e34ba7&pd_rd_w=8uewp&pd_rd_wg=eETng&pf_rd_p=11bf186d-590b-449a-8161-5414a5d28305&pf_rd_r=MW5AS42PPQCKN4RQQMBE&psc=1&refRID=MW5AS42PPQCKN4RQQMBE.   

i think this might help right?   i find this product pretty interesting

BrianZ

Just FYI, for anyone else like me who is not truck-savy and didn't understand what NuCamp meant by saying on the T@B sticker not to tow their trailer with any truck larger than "3/4 ton"..
(After all, our van weighs about 2.5 tons, so "three quarters of a ton" would make no sense for the weight of a truck.)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but 3/4 is not meant as a fraction, but refers to a truck with a GVWR of 6000 to 8000 lbs (3 or 4 tons, like a Ford F150 I believe).  The next class of truck capacity would be the 8000 to 10,000 GVWR, or 4 to 5 tons (presumably, this should be referred to as a "4/5 ton" truck, but seems to be called a "1-ton" truck; and would include those 250/2500 models).

In any case, NuCamp's warning appears to relate to trucks beyond the 3 to 4 ton GVWR range having a suspension too stiff to avoid rattling the T@B to pieces & should not be used (or at your own risk).
Back when I  was in the Army, we had a commonly used 2.5 ton utility truck, often referred to as a "deuce & a half", which I believe was its cargo capacity, rather than any reference to GVWR.

Reference:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_classification

ChrisFix

BrianZ said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but 3/4 is not meant as a fraction, but refers to a truck with a GVWR of 6000 to 8000 lbs (3 or 4 tons, like a Ford F150 I believe).  The next class of truck capacity would be the 8000 to 10,000 GVWR, or 4 to 5 tons (presumably, this should be referred to as a "4/5 ton" truck, but seems to be called a "1-ton" truck; and would include those 250/2500 models).

3/4 Ton refers specifically to the payload (1,500lbs), nothing else. It is a somewhat antiquated notion, as my Honda Ridgeline has a payload just over 1,500lbs and is a unibody mid-size truck.
1/2 Ton is a 1,000lb payload truck, 3/4 Ton is a 1,500lb payload truck etc.
I don't know when this nomenclature became fixed, but it was obviously when these numbers related to the actual capacity of the trucks.
Today they separate the various classes of trucks from full size (1/2 Ton), to Heavy Duty (3/4 Ton and 1 Ton)...although the trucks have ratings that are usually double or more than the name implies.

ChanW

@BrianZ, I assume they're referring to load capacity.

Smaller pickups are called ¼ ton, midsize pickups are ½ ton, and heavier duty pickups are ¾ ton load capacity?

At least my 52 GMC is rated at ¾ ton, where I believe the 52 Chevy was rated at ½ ton....

1968Healey

1/2 ton, 3/4 ton are historical weight classes for trucks.

F-150’s, Chevy 1500’s, Ram 1500’s are all half ton trucks.  Some of them have payloads as low as 1k lbs, some go up to 3200lbs now.  

F-250’s, Chevy 2500’s, Ram 2500’s are 3/4 ton trucks.  Again, the payloads vary from 1200lbs to 6,000 +.  

F-350’s are 1 ton, which is where you get into very stiff suspension setups.

Many years ago (think 1980’s) the payload numbers might have matched the weight classes, but it’s not true anymore.  Just because a Ridgeline has 1500 lbs of payload doesn’t make it a 3/4 ton truck.  

This probably isn’t a concern for 95% of people.  If you have a 250 or 350 series truck, you know what is it.

N7SHG_Ham

Well it is confusing, but yes 3/4 ton is what they are called, so that would be GM and Ram 2500 models and a Ford F250. One ton trucks are the 3500/350 versions and going the other way, the smallest capacity are the 1/2 tons or 1500/150 models.

I think those ratings may have meant something 50+ years ago, but obviously these days even a 1/2 ton truck has capacity over 2000 pounds.

Bottom line is NuCamp and more specifically I suppose the frame vendor says to NOT tow with more than a 2500 GM or Ram or a F250 Ford.

Not sure on other brands like the Toyota Tundra or Nissan Titan, I think they are kind of a heavy 1/2 between the domestic 1500 and 2500, but I suspect they would not be considered above a domestic 2500 truck rating, but a guess on my part.

No F350 dually etc. And most of the domestic brands if not all now have pickup cabs on trucks up to the 5500/550 category, definitely too stiff of suspension.

Trucks are in classes from 1 through 8. Pickups in general can be Classes 1-5, medium duty trucks are Class 6-7 and heavy duty trucks are Class 8. Other than possible local delivery, etc. Almost all long haul semi trucks are Class 8.

BrianZ

Thank you, @ChrisFix, @ChanW, @1968Healey, and @N7SHG_Ham for educating me about trucks.  Like my father, I've never owned one,  and before getting our T@B, the biggest thing I ever hauled or towed was a 5x10 utility trailer full of leaves that doesn't even have brakes. 

I wonder if NuCamp considered that a small trailer like the T@B may often be the the first or only camper that an owner ever had and they may very well not know anything about trucks either; but then, like someone said, the warning was likely intended for those who know the meaning because they already own or intend to tow with a truck.

Thanks again for all the great lessons.  
I have to laugh at myself though - How did I, after all these years & 5 college degrees, just now at age 70 finally learn what a 3/4 ton truck is? ☺️
I guess we're never too old to learn something new, and this forum is a great place for that.

ChanW

Yep, me too! Nice to know these specifics. I always just 'guessed'!

BrianZ said:

......

I guess we're never too old to learn something new, and this forum is a great place for that.

Sharon_is_SAM

Brian, you’re not alone - I had to Google it☺️  Also, my DH and brother-in-law, both with Doctorates, took hours to figure out how to reset the clock in our old Camry!  

ChanW

Oh, don't get me started on 'modern' user interface design.... (I think all tech is designed by geeks) it started with VCR's!

Sharon_is_SAM said:

Brian, you’re not alone - I had to Google it☺️  Also, my DH and brother-in-law, both with Doctorates, took hours to figure out how to reset the clock in our old Camry!  

N7SHG_Ham

Although born in a LA suburb, my folks moved to rural Oregon when I was in 2nd grade. I guess growing up in rural America, pickups are pretty common, I got the family pickup a 1968 1/3 ton (edit to say this was a typo, 1/2 ton) Dodge while in high school. Still in the family my BIL has it and is restoring it. I have driven pickups for 100's of thousands of miles, my current Ram has 312k, so this stuff is second nature.

ChanW

⅓ ton. I must say, I've never heard of one of those!

Though I did have a '51 Dodge, and it was definitely not the beast that the ¾ ton GMC is... I assumed it was a half ton, but maybe not.

Denny16

A 1/3 ton was the original designation for a Dodge Dakota or other compact P/U trucks smaller than the 1/2 ton full size truck.  However, the newer compact trucks, like the Dakota, have a full 1/2 ton cargo capacity in some builds.

Going back to post WWII, you had 1/4 ton (military designation for the Jeep MP, and later CJs, 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton PU trucks in the 1950s, and the 1/3 ton later in the 70s with the compact PU truck releases (not the smaller imported little PU trucks).  

Today, the 1/4 ton and 1/3 ton references are not used anymore, but the basic Jeep Wrangler is still a 1/4 ton vehicle.
cheers

1968Healey

Now that I think more about it, I’m surprised nuCamp or Balco (whoever makes the frame) doesn’t spell out the max ‘Class’ of truck that can be used.  Classes have taken over ton ratings as the official DOT ratings.  Once you get to a certain class I think you need a commercial license.

Either way, saying ‘no more than a Class 2b truck’ would greatly simplify this as the ton ratings are very confusing!

Denny16

Yes, in California you need a commercial license to drive any commercial truck or bus, and to drive any truck 5-tins and over.  Also need a commercial license to drive a buss, or Amy passenger vehicle that can haul 16 or more passengers, including the driver.  Their are several classes of commercial licenses.  Also Cass A or C RVs over a certain size require a special license endorsement, including some 5th wheel RVs.

yet another reason to drive a small PU and tow a small RV like the TaB.  
cheers

Mouseketab

I don't know how I know, but I when I first saw that sticker posted here, I instinctively thought that it meant nothing bigger than a Ford F-250 or Chevy 2500. Although, I've been around folks with campers and trucks for a long time.

JCALD

F250 and 2500 Chevy is too stiff for the Tab 400 frame.  An F150 aka 3/4 ton is the max truck size for these trailers.  Anything beyond and you risk a frame fracture since the HD trucks are sprung much stiffer so they can carry a much heavier load.  Simple as that.

Denny16

JCALD, a F250 or 2500 is a 3/4 ton (cargo/payload rating) and the F150/1500 is a traditional 1/2 ton truck, as discussed above.  The “ton” rating is based on what weight you could originally put into the truck, not is GVWR, which is what DMVs use to determine a truck class.  Two different F250’s can have a different GVWR, depending on its axle/spring options, i.e. “Super Duty” rating.  

The terns 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton are holdovers from when they used to mean the carrying capacity. Think about the number designations. If you consider back in the 1960s a Ford F100 truckwas a true 1/2 ton truck that could carry 1000 pounds (half ton). The F150 was a 3/4 ton truck back then, (1500 pound capacity).

But today, the terms are more ambiguous, and the 150/1500 is used to designate a 1/2 ton PU truck, and 2500/250 a 3/4 ton truck and 350/3500 a 1-ton truck.  But the actual cargo capacity has increased, and a 2500 Super Duty is basically a 3500 tuck, so the actual differences become blurred in same cases.

I agree, using a F250/2500 to haul a TaB 400 is somewhat overkill , but it wil, work..  A “Heavy or Super Duty version would be too stiff in its suspension, I would think.  Many of today’s P/U trucks use the same cab/frame for the 1/2 and. 3/4 ton truck versions, and only the axles and suspension is different, along with package options.  

A so-called Mid-Size truck with factory tow package is a better fit for the TaB320 and 400.  You get all the advantages of a PU truck, in a slight small truck, which today is about the same size as the original Ford F100, but with a longer cab and shorter bed.

Many of the F150/1500 quad cab/4-door trucks with short beds running around these days are more “SUV” than they are a true truck, and their payload is being used up the weight of all the kit these trucks have installed.  I have a quite basic quad cab truck, and I only have 1150 lbs of payload left with standard springs/axles, but still a 1/2 ton payload left.  So these light F/150 and 1500 trucks or even their slightly larger F250 and 2500 cousins should work to pull a TaB400, as they are basically the same truck.

A better rating for a TV, might be its GVWR, which is what DMVs use to determine a truck class, or use the 1-8 truck class rating.  The old 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton rating (1500 F150, etc) only show’s relative size comparison, and not a trucks actual weight/cargo rating.  I see Ram 1500 that can haul 3/4 ton payload, but it is still rated as a “1/2-ton” truck. 

Where the difference between a 1500 and 2500 becomes apparent, is when you want to haul a bigger trailer.  Try renting a 18-22 foot flat bed equipment hauling trailer with a 1500 or F150 truck, most rental places will not hook a large trailer to anything less than a 3/4 ton rated F250/2500 truck.  

Cheers

N7SHG_Ham

My 1/3 ton was a typo, the truck was a Dodge D100 or 1/2 ton pickup in 1968 ratings.

Ford used to be F100 until introduction of the F150 in 1975. The real reason at the time was emmsions. A heavier GVW truck wasn't subject to same emmsions standards. Often times touted quiter, more powerful or some other marketing BS is told to the public, when real reason was a change for EPA standards. Another example is the Cummins engine used in Dodge Rams, in 1998 and again in 2003 models there was major changes to engines. Brochures in 1998 mostly focused on more power and less noise. I would question the less noise, there was more power. No where in brochure does it say hey we have to meet new EPA rules for diesel emmsions, but that was reason behind redesigned heads and fuel injection systems.

In the discussion at hand, I still interpret the frame sticker to mean Ram 2500, Chev/GMC 2500 and Ford F250 or less is OK.