Preparing for De-Winterizing Questions?

CJvagabond

I've been looking over manuals and diagrams to learn this before I try and do the De-Winterizing. I've printed out the photos of what position the Alde valves should be in for "Camping" and "Winterizing". I'm a bit confused. The valves as they are on my new TAB, winterized from the dealer seem to be a combination of both of those??

Hot Water Valve:  Open
Hot Water Drain: Closed
Bypass Valve: Closed
Cold Water Valve (bypass?): Open
Cold Water Drain:  Closed

I know they put antifreeze into the system.
I'm a bit confused. Why would they part "camping" and part "winterized"? I've watched the Youtube video with Air Force Guy and will probably watch it about 5 more times before I attempt to De-W-Ize.
Advise much appreciated. Thanks! Christine

I've taken some pics.  I've resized these to 800x600. Hope that's not still too big?

grubbster

If this was winterized by NuCamp or your dealer I think they sometimes blow out the lines after they run antifreeze through them.  That may explain the valve orientation.

dragonsdofly

@CJvagabond, that is the perfect pic size. If the dealership winterized by putting pink stuff into the plumbing lines, first, water has to be drained or pressure pushed out. Then the drains have to be closed, and the bypass engaged so the lines can be pressurized and the pink stuff drawn through the lines by the pump. The drains must remain closed so the rv anti-freeze can stay in the plumbing and thus keep doing its job. To dewinterize, either open the drains to get as much antifreeze out and then flush the lines, or keep the drains closed and just flush the lines into your gray tank. After flushing the lines, disengage the bypass so you can get water into the hot water tank. Good luck.

CJvagabond

Thank you @dragonsdofly So, open the hot and cold drains and the yellow drain, let it all drain out, then close them and put the hose onto the city water. Then run it and it goes all through the system? (Do I put on the water pump?) Then empty it all again and put bleach into a hose and hook it back up and run the bleach water through it all. Then rinse it twice? Then close the drains. Then all the lines and tanks will be full? Ready for water, hot water, etc? Then I would put water down the fresh tank with bleach. Then open that drain and rinse that twice. Nucamp said to bleach then rinse with tw
I need to put the water pump on to do the fresh tank? Do I keep the hose on and the fresh tank water pump at the same time? 
To disengage the bypass does that mean to open it?  That would be the Hot Water Bypass?    Oh boy...lol I have never done anything like this. All new. 

@grubbster They told me there is about 2 gallons of antifreeze in there. I can see the pink in the toilet and a few pink spots on the shower floor. Once I accidentally moved the sink handle and pink water started coming out. I quickly turned it off.
Thanks a lot! 

dragonsdofly

@CJvagabond, slow down, take a deep.breath. The yellow flapper valve drains the alde hot water tank. Hopefully, when your trailer was winterized, the hot water was drained and then the alde was by passed. So, if you are hooking up a city water hose to the tab (ALWAYS use a pressure regulator), the city water pressure will push fresh water into your plumbing as you open each faucet, one at a time. You do not need the water pump for that. Please make sure your water pump has not been disconnected before doing anything to dewinterize. Hold the toilet flush lever open until it runs clear and the pink stuff is out of there too. I don't know about bleaching as we don't use antifreeze, so I don't worry about accidentally combining chemicals within the system. I think there is a step by step  winterizing/dewinterizing manual in the left hand side category list. Find that and slowly go through the process, in case my tips are unclear, or I've forgotten anything. It's really not difficult, although I've only done it once completely through myself. Usually the DH does it as he moves more quickly. -Denise

Sharon_is_SAM

When you say “I know they put antifreeze into the system”,  who is they - dealer or factory and do you mean antifreeze in the fresh tank and lines?  Or just in the traps and toilet?  In the Alde?  The factory ships new TaBs winterized by blowing water out and filling the p traps of the sink and shower, toilet and waste tank valves.  Your plumbing valves could be left in their current position with the factory antifreeze.  This is how our valves are after we winterize like the factory.  First Confirm that your dealer  pumped additional antifreeze throughout your plumbing.

CJvagabond

I've sent an email to the dealer rep, just to be sure. Reading back he said they prefer the anti-freeze method to blowing out the air. That I would need to open the yellow plug to drain the Alde. They winterized it at the dealer. I don't know if they did anything with the water pump but asked. 
Once I learn and get the sequence down it will be OK. I learn better by watching but 140 miles one way is too far to go. Keeping an eye on temps too so as not to do it too soon but hoped to go try it out maybe next week.
Thank you!

Sharon_is_SAM

He said you need to drain the Alde of antifreeze?  If they winterized via the fresh tank then you should be able to see antifreeze in your pump filter chamber.  That is behind the hatch over the toilet.

CJvagabond

It seems it was not winterized properly? I wrote to Nucamp. Sent photos and the valves aren't in the correct positions. Was told I'll need to rinse, rinse, rinse and do some extra steps to clear it out and prepare it. He said it would be OK as long as I did not run the Alde. But...I've had the Alde on (electric heat only) most of the time since I brought it back? Wrote back and told him that. Waiting to hear back? :(

dragonsdofly

@CJvagabond, sorry to hear that. If the pink stuff went into to alde water heater (stainless steel) and you had the heat on, the pink rv antifreeze got heated. Depending on brand and type, it may have caused some changes to the chemical make up of the antifreeze. That in turn may or may not have caused a reaction with the stainless steel of the water heater. It is stainless steel. It's tough. Except for extra rinsing, there may not be any difficulties at all. -Good luck with all of this.

ScottG

@CJvagabond, it looks to me like your valves are in normal camping mode. If your dealer put antifreeze in the lines, it suggests that they didn't bypass the Alde when they winterized. I doubt any harm has been done to the Alde. Drain, rinse, repeat, and camp on!  :-)

CJvagabond

Thanks for the support! I'll wait and see and soon as it looks like no more cold nights, I'll get her ready to go. I hope she'll be OK. 

dsfdogs

So unless I missed something, wouldn't an easy way to know if there was antifreeze in the Alde is to flip up the yellow valve and see if anything drains out?

Sharon_is_SAM

Exactly.

CJvagabond

I just put a container under the Alde drain and opened the yellow valve. Sounded like a lot of air and pressure. Went out and it squirted all around and there is pink fluid from the Alde. ? I'm waiting to hear back about if having the heat on for almost a month with anti-freeze in the Alde could have hurt it? It was recommended I test everything while on shore power so I did. All but anything water related. I slept out there a few nights. Now I'm kind of worried. 

CJvagabond

I mean it was recommended I test everything by the dealer rep after bringing it home back in February. So I did that. 

Sharon_is_SAM

@CJvagabond,  just curious who your dealer is so other TaB buyers can anticipate having antifreeze in the Alde.  

I guess you can chock this up to the TaB learning curve.  I suspect at this point, the only thing you can do is flush thoroughly.  I want to believe that the impact on the stainless steel with heated antifreeze occurs over repeated exposures and your limited use of the cabin heat will most likely have no impact.

Just be careful about dewinterizing too early.  You don’t want to get an emergency lesson in how to drain and blow out your lines!

So, when you do flush your system, make sure that yellow flapper and your drain lines are closed.  A campground full hookup would make things easier to dispose of the antifreeze in the sewer line.  I would open the gray tank valve after your sewer tubing is fully connected.  Hook up to city water using the pressure regulator and turn on the supply spigot.  This will quickly pressurize your plumbing system.  Do NOT turn your water pump on at this point as it can damage the pump as it works against that pressure.  

Start by holding your toilet flush valve open until the pink clears.  Next open up your cold sink and shower taps (outside shower too) one at a time until they run clear.  After your cold supply lines are clear, then open your sink hot water tap.  This will fill the Alde hot water tank in case it is not completely filled with AF, so it may sputter a lot.  Keep that hot tap open until it no longer sputters (means tank is full), and then let it run until clear.  Next, open the hot shower faucets (inside and outside) one at a time until they run clear then close the tap. Next, turn off the supply spigot and disconnect from your city connection.  Use the hose to fill the fresh water tank -slowly unless you like wet feet.  With the tank full, turn on your water pump.  The pump will run briefly as it pressurizes, but the pressure from the city connection should limit this time.  Lastly, open your cold sink tap.  This will draw from your fresh tank, flushing the tank, tank outflow plumbing and the pump.  Keep the sink tap open until it starts sputtering, indicating your tank is essentially empty.  I would probably refill the fresh water tank and flush it again just to be sure - you don’t want antifreeze in your drinking and shower water😏

To sanitize with bleach, you will need to open the Alde bypass valve and close the cold and hot water valves that run to and from the Alde.  This will isolate the Alde from the bleach but still allow the solution to run through the remainder of the plumbing lines.  Mix a 1 gallon solution of water with 1/4 cup or less of bleach.  Pour that into the fresh water tank and then use your hose to fill your fresh water tank.  Make sure your pump is turned on.  To fill your plumbing lines with the sanitizing solution, open up your hot and cold water sink and shower(s) taps one at a time until you smell bleach.  Flush the toilet just to be thorough.  Let the TaB sit with the bleach water in the tank and lines for a few hours or less - you are just sanitizing, not sterilizing.  Then open up any tap and run until the fresh tank empties.  Fill your fresh tank with the hose again and run fresh water through all your taps inside and out until no more bleach smell.  You may need to do this several times.  Now you see why a sewer connection is helpful!  

After you are satisfied that you have flushed out the bleach, go back and turn off your Alde bypass valve and open your hot and cold supply lines.  It may be a good time at this point to check your pump filter for factory plastics debris.  Make sure your pump is turned off first.  Then hook up to the city water again and enjoy the luxury of your TaB plumbing!

CJvagabond

Thank you SO much for all this help. I will print this off.

I hoped ? to go next week. Water has just been turned on at that particular campground but I wouldn't attempt this unless the nighttime temps remain in the 40s.
 I'm just feeling discouraged. I was told antifreeze was in the Alde but had no idea it wasn't supposed to be. Also told to turn everything on and try it. (not water).
Still waiting to hear back from both dealer and Nucamp again. I'd asked if the system will be OK if the heat was on that long with anti-freeze.

The dealer was Juniata Valley RV in Mifflintown, PA. I went that far because the price I paid was much less than others I'd been in contact with during my search.

When I plug into the city water, do I put the pressure valve on the trailer end or the water hose end? I think I've seen pics of both. 

It sure sounds like it would be easier to do this while at a campground. I wouldn't have internet though for any questions or to look anything up. I don't own a SmartPhone. 

Thank you SO much for your help and detailed instructions. Will print this off now. Christine

dsfdogs

I'm fairly certain Beckley's (Paul the Airforce Guy) has said they put antifreeze in the Alde to be safe, but I don't think he recommends turning on the Alde. 

I put the pressure regulator at the hose bib, then water filter, then hose, then 90* elbow on the trailer. Everyone has their own opinion. I would suggest getting a brass regulator and not using the cheap blue regulator that came with the trailer. I finally bought one of these water tank filler valves to attach to the hose to make filling the water tank easier. (You'll see the end of the hose doesn't actually fit into the opening to fill, which is frustrating). Also, keep the water flowing slowly and occasionally turn off to let the water gurgle into the tank.

I believe you only need 1/4 cup of bleach. I mix it with water then use a funnel to pour into the tank. You could practice some of this while still at home. Good luck!

ScottG

@CJvagabond, I understand your concern with such a new toy, but you really can probably find better things to worry about.

When I first got my T@B I set about sanitizing the system. The instructions in what passed for an owner's manual were clear as mud, and who reads instruction, anyway? I dumped over a half gallon of bleach into my system and ran it into the Alde HW tank where it sat for a period of time while I came to the enlightenment that I'd used waaaay too much bleach and had put it where it wasn't supposed to go. By all accounts my Alde should have dissolved on the spot, but it didn't and four years later everything still works just fine...

So, if your Alde still heats up and there isn't a growing puddle of water under your back bench, I honestly think you are good to go!  :-)

Sharon_is_SAM

I agree with Scott.  Don’t sweat it.  Just flush it!  And in the future, don’t add antifreeze to the Alde!

There are 2 schools of thought regarding where to place the pressure regulator.

1.  At the spigot - just don’t leave it there when you depart.
2.  At the TaB - the only explanation I have seen is if the regulator is at the spigot and the hose left out in the sun expands, you can expose the TaB plumbing to undue pressure.  Not sure how plausible this really is, but, we have a nice little portable spigot that screws into the city water connection that holds the pressure regulator nicely.

I agree that the filter should be at the spigot end.  You want to prevent exposing your hose to cooties.

dsfdogs

ScottG said:

I dumped over a half gallon of bleach into my system 

At least you had a clean water tank and hoses! I have visions of your eyes watering and nose hairs curling as you flushed it through the system. 

Sharon_is_SAM

@ScottG, you must have had to flush your fresh tank for days to get rid of the bleach!  I can’t imagine what that took.

ScottG

Let's just say the camper had a faint smell of bleach that persisted for most of that first season. As @dfsdogs suggested, at least I didn't have to worry about any cooties in my plumbing!  :-)

BrianZ

Thank you for that refresher course, @Sharon_is_SAM.  Now I don't need to review your PDF procedure when I de-winterize today or tomorrow.  I think we've had our last freezing temps here two nights ago.  And our first trip is week after next.

CJvagabond

Soon as nighttime temps stay in the 40's I'll work on clearing it all out. Hopefully it didn't affect the system. Not sure if I'd know if it did or didn't? It's new so still under warranty. It was a huge "splurge". 

I have been adding to the necessities while waiting.
Ordered a brass pressure regulator to replace the plastic one. Bought the Progressive Industries Surge Protector. The 30XL. Bike lock. Anderson leveler. 30 to 50 amp adaptor and Etc. So my "important" list is getting shorter.

Sharon_is_SAM

@BrianZ, yes, a good review.  Last fall, I left a note in the TaB to remind me to bypass the Alde when we sanitize.  We didn’t our first year.  I may have even left the valves in the bypass position, just in case.  Why not?  It is still in storage until mid-April.  

BrianZ

Hmm, leave valves in bypass mode - that sounds like a good idea, as I too made the mistake of running bleach through the Alde our first year. 
The only note I left myself is on tape covering water inlets to be sure to reconnect the water pump hoses first. I leave my temporary pair of flushing hoses attached after running antifreeze through the pump after blowing out the system in the fall.  

Now, if I can remember to get the annual state safety inspection done next month we'll be all set.
I just checked our Alde fluid & it's still at the "max" line after 1-1/2 years.
Still need to check that bleeder screw on the hot water mixing valve, as it got loose & leaked after the previous winter.

Trailpixie

What would make the alde so sensitive to some antifreeze or a mild bleach solution?  I don’t understand the problem. 

Sharon_is_SAM

The antifreeze is not a problem if you will not use the alde while winterized, but only a certain kind of antifreeze will hold up to the Alde heat output.  It breaks down under excess heat and can damage the stainless steel lining.  The bleach interacts negatively with the stainless steel also.

dragonsdofly

@Trailpixie, we are talking about the bleach solution or rv antifreeze being in the water heater part of the alde, which is stainless steel. Bleach not only corrodes stainless, but can actually "dissolve" stainless, thus thinning and weakening the metal. The rv winterizing antifreeze is not generally reactive with the stainless, but, in this case, the alde was operating, probably for months, heating the trailer. This in turn, heated the rv antifreeze, changing its chemical composition, which may react with the stainless. In either case, not good conditions for the stainless steel internal workings of the water heater. And do you want to cook, wash and shower with water that may/may not have come into contact with corroded metal? That being said, the stainless is tough. A one time contact with a dilute bleach solution will probably have no ill effect, but done regularly, as some do, each time they sanitize the water system, the effects are cumulative, and damaging. 'Nuf said?