Should I upgrade the WFCO?

db_cooper
db_cooper Member Posts: 748
edited September 2018 in Battery/Electrical & Solar
Just got back from a week in Jasper AB, no hookups the entire time.  Very happy with the 2 Costco golf cart batteries.  After 6 nights still at 12.4, never deployed the solar panels as it was rainy.  Granted we were misers, mostly water pump, charging phones,  a few lights and a little radio. Alde and fridge on propane.

After traveling up there and back, the battery reads a surface charge of 12.7 to 13.0. Sounds fully charged, but when I put the battery tender on, it takes 12-16 hours for it to go steady green.  

I'm not running the fridge while traveling.  Does the WFCO only get it to 90% or so?   


2015 Max S Outback | 2010 Xterra  -- Retired
2022 Ford F350 Tremor |  2022 Cirrus 620



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Comments

  • Ratkity
    Ratkity Member Posts: 3,770
    I'm not going to say *all* converters are the same, but the WFCOs are notoriously for not getting the battery up to 100% with phantom loads. That last 10% is difficult for the WFCO to get higher because it takes energy to run and phantom power takes a bit. My opinion is that the WFCO goes into float mode too soon, but that's my humble opinion. Only time you can get a battery to 100% is do an overnight charge without any loads and let it sit for 24 hours (if not AGM, check the water levels before and after - distilled water only). 

    Again, this is my opinion on the on-board converters for camper in general.  Sounds like your boondocking went well despite the rain!! 
    2017 820R Retro Toy Hauler from 2015 Tabitha T@B from 2009 Reverse LG Teardrop (but a T@Bluver at heart)
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  • Sharon_is_SAM
    Sharon_is_SAM Member Posts: 10,061
    I agree with Ratkity.  I use a smart charger after an outing and leave it on overnight.  Important to have AGMs fully charged before storing.
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
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  • db_cooper
    db_cooper Member Posts: 748
    Sounds like it's normal then.  Even after a 3 hour tow, it takes an overnight charge to go green.  Seems like I lose a few amps more than just phantom drain while towing.  Batteries are definitely healthy, we could have gone 9-10 days easy. One of those trips where the fridge heated the inside to the right temperature. 
    2015 Max S Outback | 2010 Xterra  -- Retired
    2022 Ford F350 Tremor |  2022 Cirrus 620



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  • Ratkity
    Ratkity Member Posts: 3,770
    LOL @db_cooper, this past winter, my friends and I boondocked to gather later for "Wreaths Across America". They were all standing at the frig vent outside for warmth hehehe.
    2017 820R Retro Toy Hauler from 2015 Tabitha T@B from 2009 Reverse LG Teardrop (but a T@Bluver at heart)
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  • ColoradoJon
    ColoradoJon Member Posts: 415
    edited September 2018
    The problem with the WFCO, or any converter, is the charge voltage.  I've never seen mine go above 13.6v, and you need a good 14.4v during the absorption charge (80% full) in order to complete the last 20%.  They are intentionally low as the converter also provides power to cabin lights and other 12v systems.  Plus, it has to be compatible with the common battery types so it provides a generic charge voltage.  And, as @Ratkity mentioned, it drops into float mode too quickly as a result.  It will eventually charge the batteries to capacity but it will take a very long time.

    These converters are great for your standard 50-60aH 12v battery, but once you install higher capacity batteries it becomes inefficient for charging.
    Jon & Angela | Florissant Colorado | 2017 Outback S
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  • ChrisK
    ChrisK Member Posts: 280
    Are there other converters out there or another solution that is not overkill for our little campers?
    2014 T@b S Max AKA T@dpole
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  • Ratkity
    Ratkity Member Posts: 3,770
    edited September 2018
    @ChrisK, my best solution was to put a pigtail on my battery, tuck it in while not using it. Then flip the battery breaker/off switch so no phantom power is there and charge that sucker overnight by plugging the other end of the pigtail into an auto charger. Battery Tender makes one with multiple pigtails to use. If you have an AGM battery, you are set to go on your next trip!!
    2017 820R Retro Toy Hauler from 2015 Tabitha T@B from 2009 Reverse LG Teardrop (but a T@Bluver at heart)
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  • ChrisK
    ChrisK Member Posts: 280
    Ratkity said:
    @ChrisK, my best solution was to put a pigtail on my battery, tuck it in while not using it. Then flip the battery breaker/off switch so no phantom power is there and charge that sucker overnight by plugging the other end of the pigtail into an auto charger. Battery Tender makes one with multiple pigtails to use. If you have an AGM battery, you are set to go on your next trip!!
    I do have an AGM battery and I am getting ready for the next trip. 2 wonderful weeks. Staying at Goosenecks State Park, Bryce Canyon, Arches, and Montrose. Looking forward to testing the solar again and the fridge mods at Goosenecks. 
    2014 T@b S Max AKA T@dpole
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  • N7SHG_Ham
    N7SHG_Ham Member Posts: 1,261
    edited September 2018
    There are smart converters with four stage charging made for AGM batteries. I would think one of those would be a good solution for longer battery life. Here is a link to a smorgasbord of converters: http://www.bestconverter.com
    2019 T@B 400 Boondock Lite
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  • Sharon_is_SAM
    Sharon_is_SAM Member Posts: 10,061
    @ChrisK, there have been some members who had to replace their converters.  It has been a while ago (?several years?) that I recall there was a batch of different brand converters installed that did not hold up.  The WFCOs have been more reliable, but having said that, they do travel down our bumpy roads and are exposed to a lot of stress.  In addition, nuCamp recommends not keeping our Tabs plugged in all the time as a way to increase the longevity of the installed converter.  I thought ColoradoJon had replaced his converter, no?  Someone suggested a Progressive Industry model, however, I think when it was all said and done, it did not offer any different features/specs that the current WFCO offers.  Regarding your AGM battery - AGMs have their own unique charging voltage requirements which you need to look up.  Make note of ColoradoJon's comment above.  To fully charge most AGMs, they require higher and a longer application of voltage.  If you repeatedly charge a battery only to 80-90%, you will assign it to an early grave.  I think the best thing you can do, with an AGM and even with higher amperage wet cell battery(s) is to get a good smart charger and identify that the charger specs meet your battery specs.  It takes homework, but once you do that, you will have peace of mind knowing that you have done everything you can do to maximally charge your battery.  If we are on a long trip, we will isolate the battery from time to time, hook it up to the charger overnight, and use shorepower while the battery is isolated.  Hope this helps.
    Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio
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  • ChrisK
    ChrisK Member Posts: 280
    edited September 2018
    @Sharon_is_SAM I am one of those that had a bad converter. I was out of warranty but Pleasant Valley sold me a new one at cost. Time consuming but easy install.
    The reason I was asking was because if it happened once, it can happen again and I might as well upgrade when I do. If there is a better, more efficient setup out there, I'd like to find it. I didn't last time because of the price they gave me for a new converter. 
    Thanks for the advice on the battery. I had already looked up the specs and set my solar setup to charge at the proper rates for an AGM. I didn't think of my existing converter setup.  
    2014 T@b S Max AKA T@dpole
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  • ColoradoJon
    ColoradoJon Member Posts: 415
    @Sharon_is_SAM Yep... I had to replace my converter.  I think @T@Balong had to replace his as well.
    Jon & Angela | Florissant Colorado | 2017 Outback S
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  • gregp
    gregp Member Posts: 23
    Did anyone replace their WFCO with a different converter such as a Progressive Dynamics model?   I am wondering if anyone has upgraded their converter to capable of producing 14.4V needed to charge a Lithium battery.  thanks!
    TAB 320S ,  2018 Volvo V90
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  • ChanW
    ChanW Member Posts: 3,165
    edited November 2018
    That's interesting about the need to limit the converter's output voltage for the accessories. It seems there ought to be a way to charge the battery with one output voltage (14.4V for example), yet run the accessories on a regulated lower 12V voltage.
    Chan  -  near Buffalo NY
    2014 S Maxx
    2011 Tacoma 4cyl ... edit: 2022 Tacoma 6cyl - oh yeah! 

     A_Little_T@b'll_Do_Ya
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  • crampshaw
    crampshaw Member Posts: 16
    We’ve installed Progressive Dynamics converters and they do a better job of charging and have models that charge lithium. They are still vulnerable to the two big enemies tho — vibration and 110v power surges. If our current converter (equipped with surge protector now) fails, we will replace it with NOCO or Victron smart charger. 
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  • crampshaw
    crampshaw Member Posts: 16
    I wouldn’t worry about higher voltages when installing a Progressive Dynamics converter. The 14.4v charging voltage won’t harm 12v equipment. We once even had a rnaway converter that pumped out 16v for couple days until I noticed it. No harm done to batteries or appliances. 
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  • RCB
    RCB Member Posts: 246
    Getting a battery 100% charged is rarely achieved. AGM’s even more so in my experience. My last boat had six AGM batteries, all 27s. They were charged by the large alternator or the 2500watt / ? Amp convertor- inverter. I’ve forgotten some of the specs. The charger was adjustable in terms of voltage output - from 13.6 to 14.4 for different battery types ; but without temperature sensors. The Cadillac chargers have temp sensors which allow the charge voltage to be varied as the temperature of the battery changes. This feature helps to get closer to a full charge (100%). The RV community does not seem to be as focused on a fully charged battery as the boating community. However, if you leave your rig plugged in for extended periods or connected to solar panels, you are more likely to achieve a maximum charge.
    We have a 400 on order and hopefully the charging regime of a WFCO charger and solar panels will be adequate. I’ll ad a monitoring system to confirm battery input, output and capacity.
    400 - 2019
    St Catharines, ON
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  • N7SHG_Ham
    N7SHG_Ham Member Posts: 1,261
    IMHO, the WFCO brand in general is lower end and is an area where I think NuCamp could improve, in other words they build a quality unit with quality components and then put same converter as everyone else. I don't know if there is much available in converters other than WFCO and PD with PD being way better by all accounts, but they could just add a quality charger with different set points depending on battery chemistry and just pull all 12v from the battery. It seems very few if any RV's come that way as a converter has been the way of RV's since at least the 1960's.

    Is there some reason RV's use a converter?
    2019 T@B 400 Boondock Lite
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  • mreric
    mreric Member Posts: 154
    N7SHG_Ham said:
    IMHO, the WFCO brand in general is lower end and is an area where I think NuCamp could improve, in other words they build a quality unit with quality components and then put same converter as everyone else. I don't know if there is much available in converters other than WFCO and PD with PD being way better by all accounts, but they could just add a quality charger with different set points depending on battery chemistry and just pull all 12v from the battery. It seems very few if any RV's come that way as a converter has been the way of RV's since at least the 1960's.

    Is there some reason RV's use a converter?
    i dont think it is just the converter...  i think this T@b are very unique and nucamp has the opportunity to make it better by using more component from the Europe side..  the faucets , cooktop,  fridge, nicer flooring, etc.  of course this will increase cost. 
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  • RCB
    RCB Member Posts: 246
    To the original topic - “should I upgrade my WFCO charger”. I would look at a number of marine chargers - west marine.com, has a selection.  

    There are a number of cruisers that swear by low cost flooded deep cycle Walmart batteries which they replace on a three year cycle. If that is attractive then just add a lower cost charger with a charging regime to match a flooded deep cycle. You might ask WFCO which type of battery is best suited to their design. AGMs are different and a charger must be designed to match their requirements - not all chargers are suitable.
    400 - 2019
    St Catharines, ON
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