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kimch · June 6

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MuttonChops · June 6

kimch said:
. . . a battery expert told me most likely the power system is made for only one 12 volt battery
(with relatively low aH), not for two 6 volt wired for 230 aH.

. . . Mine [ 2x 6V ] worked fine for a couple years but now the aH - - appears to be the problem
with the camper not getting enough power to run what it used to run just fine.

Does not sound like your "battery expert" is very knowledgeable.
How large your battery bank capacity is in AHr has no direct relationship to the "trailer power system" beyond A] how long it takes to fully charge, and B] how long your trailer systems will run on battery only.

Also, keep in mind that the 320S and 400 have very similar overall " power systems " and the original 400 model years all came from the factory with 2 two six volt batteries.

You indicate with the older two 6-volt batteries installed "trailer power does not seem correct"
while with one 12-Volt battery all is well - - - - - That sure seems like one of the 6-volt batteries is defective or the wire connections of the two 6-volt batteries have an issue.

The problem, as defined, has nothing / zero to do with your battery bank AHr capacity . . . IMHO

TourDeForth · June 6

I think your “battery expert” was referring to your trailer physically having only one battery installed. To add a second battery you’re going to have to install another battery box or additional battery tray plus wiring to hook two 6v batteries in parallel and then connect it to your electrical system. It’s doable, if you have room on your tongue or in the tongue box. As far as your trailer electrical system goes it just sees a 12 volt battery, the increased ah just lets you run your stuff longer without charging up from shore power.

kimch · June 6

...

ckjs · June 6

kimch said:
... the camper shows full charge (on the monitor) with one 12 volt low aH (group 24) battery in full sun. The camper shows poor or fair charge only with 2 6 volt 230 aH batteries even after sitting in sunlight for a week or more with everything in the camper turned off....

A "monitor" which does not include a current-measuring shunt is rarely reliable. Merely measuring the voltage is not enough.
You mention have a Victron (which is not a shunt) - Is that a solar charge controller? If so its history graphs will show how much energy is being generated by the solar panel(s). If its daily generation is more than the daily background load, the graphs should say that it enters the "Float" charge state. If not, then the solar is not keeping up with demand.

kimch · June 6

..

kimch · June 6

ckjs said:

kimch said:
... the camper shows full charge (on the monitor) with one 12 volt low aH (group 24) battery in full sun. The camper shows poor or fair charge only with 2 6 volt 230 aH batteries even after sitting in sunlight for a week or more with everything in the camper turned off....

A "monitor" which does not include a current-measuring shunt is rarely reliable. Merely measuring the voltage is not enough.
You mention have a Victron (which is not a shunt) - Is that a solar charge controller? If so its history graphs will show how much energy is being generated by the solar panel(s). If its daily generation is more than the daily background load, the graphs should say that it enters the "Float" charge state. If not, then the solar is not keeping up with demand.

I am VERY familiar with solar, having 100% off-grid homes for decades. Right--my Victron is pre-shunt by Nucamp so just a solar charge controller. I have monitored the history graph since I got this camper and since the problem began the batteries have almost always been in float mode (when I am not using the camper--which I use only a few times a year). The Victron readings match voltmeter readings which match other battery-checking devices I have. Everything points to the batteries themselves being in excellent condition, ditto the solar charging of them.

Also to clarify, for the past few weeks I've been doing various analytic experiments on the system I have kept everything except the minor draws (light on CO/smoke alarms, light on radio display, etc.) 100% off. No furnace, no water, no lights, no fan, no fridge. So nothing is draining the batteries (other than by a minuscule amount). Again, I am well aware of how solar/battery systems work.

ckjs · June 6

@kimch: Okay, you’ve added some useful information there, e.g., it gets to “float”, so the voltage is getting to the “I’m as charged as I’m gonna get” level. It doesn’t mean that the batteries are loaded up with 230aH of juice, especially when they are aged or perhaps defective.
Going back to the initial problem report, what do you mean by “the camper not getting enough power to run what it used to run just fine”? If the symptom is that the batteries goes from a properly configured float state, to a too-low voltage after using let’s say half of its nameplate capacity, that strongly suggests that a battery is defective.

kimch · June 6

ckjs said:

@kimch: Okay, you’ve added some useful information there, e.g., it gets to “float”, so the voltage is getting to the “I’m as charged as I’m gonna get” level. It doesn’t mean that the batteries are loaded up with 230aH of juice, especially when they are aged or perhaps defective.
Going back to the initial problem report, what do you mean by “the camper not getting enough power to run what it used to run just fine”? If the symptom is that the batteries goes from a properly configured float state, to a too-low voltage after using let’s say half of its nameplate capacity, that strongly suggests that a battery is defective.

What started all my analyses is after sitting in the sun with power off for days or weeks (but the batteries still charge of course--the power to the inside of the camper is just off) and the Victron showing float, then driving a 12 hour day in sun towing with a pickup that provides good power as well while driving, that night the monitor showed just fair then poor with minimal power usage in the camper. And--the key issue--the Alde gave me Low Battery when it tried to come on on propane. I have duplicated this in various manners since then. So it's the Alde furnace that used to run fine, now gives Low Battery. When the monitor in the camper shows 2 or more lights (Fair or better) it works just fine. I have reset the Alde to factory settings multiple times to ensure no ghost issues remain.

I have had everything on the batteries that can be tested tested. The battery company that did the most recent testing said everything tested out completely fine. Also my little tester shows SOH and SOC at 100%.

To be clear--there definitely is a correlation between the camper monitor at one light (poor) and the Alde Low Battery. At this point, however, the lights in the camper work fine and before I turned off the two-way fridge (and had it on its very lowest setting), that worked as well. So I know the batteries are not dead when the monitor has one light (plus they show full with the Victron and voltmeter then), but they appear to not be giving enough power to the camper monitor (which is supposed to show levels of battery, tanks, etc.) and Alde. If that monitor was also a controller, I'd assume it's the problem but as far as I have been able to determine, it is simply a monitor (and not an accurate one at that).

elbolillo · June 6

If you swapped out the batteries for a 12v and everything worked fine, then along with everything else that you are describing you have faulty batteries.

Cherokee · June 6

For what it's worth, I've traveled, boondocked and camped with two 6v batteries wired in series for over 5 years

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/pd/yzstewhe1sbm.jpg

kimch · June 7

Cherokee said:

For what it's worth, I've traveled, boondocked and camped with two 6v batteries wired in series for over 5 years

Good to know. I didn't have any issues for the first two years of my 2023. Does your 2019 have solar with a Victron, and what type of power center does it have?

kimch · June 7

elbolillo said:

If you swapped out the batteries for a 12v and everything worked fine, then along with everything else that you are describing you have faulty batteries.

Unfortunately it's not that simple. I have new data tonight. Once the sun was mostly off the panels and I had turned off the power in the camper, when I turned the power back on (with nothing electric turned on), the monitor was back to just one light. I couldn't test the Alde as the camper temp. was just above the max it will come on at. That is with the 12 volt battery I just hooked up a day or so ago. So now I'm thinking the problem is that something (with all turned off) in the camper is draining the battery. Or not actually draining it but causing the camper to think the battery is drained (since voltmeter, Victron, etc. show the batteries fully or almost fully charged). I'm wondering if the Victron controller has gone bad but I've found no information on what to look for there (other than wires all tight, correct lights showing) and no way to contact Victron for help. Or the WFCO could be the problem but I've gotten conflicting information on whether that controls 12 volt power or only 110--as I have full lights on the monitor as soon as I plug in (which I only did as a quick test--I only use the camper on battery power).

elbolillo · June 7

What type of battery is currently connected and what is the Victron Solar charger showing as the charged voltage?

Marceline · June 7

It would be helpful if you would post screenshots of the Victron Controller data from the Victron Connect app.

1. Controller settings (note that these settings must be changed each time you swap between the single 12v battery and the 2 6v batteries)
2. Status
3. History

If by "monitor" you're referring to the panel of idiot lights in the trailer, I'd caution that this is notoriously unreliable.

For example, if you look at those idiot lights when the trailer is in full sun and your solar panels are producing power, the lights might be reflecting a bogus SOC based on the power output from the panels, even if the batteries aren't being charged. You should look at those lights only when there is no power from the solar panels and even then they aren't terribly accurate.

Since you already have a Victron Solar Controller, I'd recommend that you add a Victron SmartShunt to your camper. The SmartShunt is easy to install and measures every amp of current going in/out of your battery so will be more useful in tracking down your issue than the idiot light panel. If there's something in the T@B that's drawing a lot of power, the SmartShunt will give you that info (the "Current" data will be a large negative number of amps).

One word of caution, though: the default settings for the SmartShunt automatically set the SOC to 100% when you first connect a battery. So if the battery is not fully charged when first connected, the SmartShunt SOC reading will be incorrect. But the SmartShunt will still provide other valuable information until you've sorted out the charging issue.

jkjenn · June 7

The WFCO power center absolutely controls the 12V system.

It:

Distributes 12V power to appliances (lights, fridge, Alde) via its DC fuse panel.
Converts 110V AC to 12V DC to power loads and charge the battery when on shore power.Connects to the battery, acting as a central hub for 12V power.The presence of 110V breakers and 12V fuses in the WFCO box confirms it manages both AC and DC systems.

The WFCO’s converter/charger is critical for 12V battery charging when you’re plugged into shore power.

Relationship Between WFCO and Victron
The Victron solar controller charges the battery from solar panels, while the WFCO charges it from shore power.

They connect to the same battery but operate independently:

When Solar is Active:
The Victron’s higher voltage (e.g., 14.4V) typically overrides the WFCO’s lower voltage (e.g., 13.6V), so the Victron handles charging. This is normal, as current flows from the higher potential source.

When on Shore Power:
The WFCO’s converter should charge the battery if its voltage exceeds the battery’s resting voltage. However, if the Victron is active or the WFCO is misconfigured (e.g., in lead-acid mode for lithium batteries), the WFCO may not charge effectively.

Things to investigate: Mismatched charging profiles:

Victron set to lithium, WFCO in lead-acid mode?
Victron and WFCO both have lithium profiles but golf cart batteries are lead acid or lithium.

Some questions to help us help you:

The problem you are trying to fix is that the battery monitor built into the TAB panel drops to one light after the sun goes down. Is that correct?
Are you trying to use 2 6v golf cart batteries and 1 12v lithium batteries at the same time?
Are your golf cart batteries traditional lead acid, AGM, or lithium? (This relates to the correct voltage provided by the power center)
Have you disconnected your batteries when you believe it/them is/are fully charged, let it/them sit for 10-15 minutes, and then measured the voltage with a multimeter?
What voltage does the Victron Solar controller show for each battery when the sun goes down? As others have stated a screenshot of the Victron would be helpful.
Why are you using the golf cart battery setup?

rfuss928 · June 7

IMO - With all the experience and resources the OP has described, it seems that some actual voltage and current measurements are long overdue. Most if not all of the suppositions and what ifs can be quickly resolved with some actual data. Nothing will be resolved without measurements.

kimch · June 7

jkjenn said:

The WFCO power center absolutely controls the 12V system.

It:
Distributes 12V power to appliances (lights, fridge, Alde) via its DC fuse panel.
Converts 110V AC to 12V DC to power loads and charge the battery when on shore power.Connects to the battery, acting as a central hub for 12V power.The presence of 110V breakers and 12V fuses in the WFCO box confirms it manages both AC and DC systems.
The WFCO’s converter/charger is critical for 12V battery charging when you’re plugged into shore power.

Relationship Between WFCO and Victron
The Victron solar controller charges the battery from solar panels, while the WFCO charges it from shore power.

They connect to the same battery but operate independently:

When Solar is Active:
The Victron’s higher voltage (e.g., 14.4V) typically overrides the WFCO’s lower voltage (e.g., 13.6V), so the Victron handles charging. This is normal, as current flows from the higher potential source.

When on Shore Power:
The WFCO’s converter should charge the battery if its voltage exceeds the battery’s resting voltage. However, if the Victron is active or the WFCO is misconfigured (e.g., in lead-acid mode for lithium batteries), the WFCO may not charge effectively.

Things to investigate: Mismatched charging profiles:
Victron set to lithium, WFCO in lead-acid mode?
Victron and WFCO both have lithium profiles but golf cart batteries are lead acid or lithium.

Some questions to help us help you:
The problem you are trying to fix is that the battery monitor built into the TAB panel drops to one light after the sun goes down. Is that correct?
Are you trying to use 2 6v golf cart batteries and 1 12v lithium batteries at the same time?
Are your golf cart batteries traditional lead acid, AGM, or lithium? (This relates to the correct voltage provided by the power center)
Have you disconnected your batteries when you believe it/them is/are fully charged, let it/them sit for 10-15 minutes, and then measured the voltage with a multimeter?
What voltage does the Victron Solar controller show for each battery when the sun goes down? As others have stated a screenshot of the Victron would be helpful.
Why are you using the golf cart battery setup?

Some good information here--thank you. So for 12v, the WFCO is just distributing power, not doing anything else. I've checked and even replaced (tho all looked fine) all the possibly relevant fuses both in-line and in the WFCO, so it sounds to me like the WFCO isn't a problem based on what you said. No settings have been changed and this camper has always had lead acid batteries so unless something electronic flipped itself, nothing is set for lithium. My Victron app has no settings for me to change battery type or pretty much anything.

Remember all the power in the camper worked completely fine for over two years and nothing has changed other than time passing (and recently me trying a 12v lead acid battery to rule out the in-great-shape-as-tested 6v batteries as the issue.

Your #1 towards the end--NO. The monitor is a symptom only. The problem is the Alde furnace gives Low Battery and won't come on when the monitor has only one light.

2. NO. No lithium involved now or ever with this camper.

3. traditional lead acid (wet cell) deep cycle

4. yes, they showed full but I'll check them today (they've been sitting for several days while I've had the 12v in for testing) before I reinstall them

5. I've been monitoring via the app for weeks. Once no sun on the battery/batteries, the Victron shows 12.6, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. I.e., fully charged.

6. For the aH. 230 vs. only around 90 with 12v.

kimch · June 7

Marceline said:

It would be helpful if you would post screenshots of the Victron Controller data from the Victron Connect app.
1. Controller settings (note that these settings must be changed each time you swap between the single 12v battery and the 2 6v batteries)
2. Status
3. History

If by "monitor" you're referring to the panel of idiot lights in the trailer, I'd caution that this is notoriously unreliable.
For example, if you look at those idiot lights when the trailer is in full sun and your solar panels are producing power, the lights might be reflecting a bogus SOC based on the power output from the panels, even if the batteries aren't being charged. You should look at those lights only when there is no power from the solar panels and even then they aren't terribly accurate.
Since you already have a Victron Solar Controller, I'd recommend that you add a Victron SmartShunt to your camper. The SmartShunt is easy to install and measures every amp of current going in/out of your battery so will be more useful in tracking down your issue than the idiot light panel. If there's something in the T@B that's drawing a lot of power, the SmartShunt will give you that info (the "Current" data will be a large negative number of amps).
One word of caution, though: the default settings for the SmartShunt automatically set the SOC to 100% when you first connect a battery. So if the battery is not fully charged when first connected, the SmartShunt SOC reading will be incorrect. But the SmartShunt will still provide other valuable information until you've sorted out the charging issue.

No settings for me to change in the Victron app I have. I've been monitoring it for weeks and the Victron shows everything is working perfectly (it thinks)--battery going to float each day with sun, only brief periods of charging and absorption. Voltage max and min show full charge always the 12 v battery never going below around 12.4, the 6v usually showing a min around 12.79.

The monitor is a SYMPTOM, not the issue here.

I read a bit about the shunt and it doesn't sound too easy since it looks like wires need to run both to the battery and inside the camper. Is it simple to run the wire(s) into the camper? And what do they connect to there (the instructions say to connect to "loads and charger")?

Marceline · June 7

No settings for me to change in the Victron app I have.

This is absolutely incorrect. You need to change the settings for the Victron Controller through the Victron Connect app when you change battery types. If you fail to do so, the Victron Controller will not properly charge the battery/ies from the solar panel.

Access the solar controller settings by clicking the gearwheel icon at the top right of the Victron Connect page for your SmartSolar controller. You can see an explanation of the settings interface by skipping to the 6:00min mark of this video.

I've been monitoring it for weeks and the Victron shows everything is working perfectly (it thinks)--battery going to float each day with sun, only brief periods of charging and absorption. Voltage max and min show full charge always the 12 v battery never going below around 12.4, the 6v usually showing a min around 12.79.

As I said earlier, it would be helpful if you'd post screenshots.

The monitor is a SYMPTOM, not the issue here.

I read a bit about the shunt and it doesn't sound too easy since it looks like wires need to run both to the battery and inside the camper. Is it simple to run the wire(s) into the camper? And what do they connect to there (the instructions say to connect to "loads and charger")?

The issue is that you're trying to solve a problem with insufficient data. I suggested the SmartShunt so that you have a means of properly measuring the power going in/out of your battery. If your battery is in the front tub, buy the IP65 version and put it somewhere in the front tub. Follow these installation directions. There's no need to run a wire through the camper. "Loads" = power going to the camper; "Charger" = your solar controller.

kimch · June 7

Marceline said:

No settings for me to change in the Victron app I have.
This is absolutely incorrect. You need to change the settings for the Victron Controller through the Victron Connect app when you change battery types. If you fail to do so, the Victron Controller will not properly charge the battery/ies from the solar panel.

Access the solar controller settings by clicking the gearwheel icon at the top right of the Victron Connect page for your SmartSolar controller. You can see an explanation of the settings interface by skipping to the 6:00min mark of this video.
I've been monitoring it for weeks and the Victron shows everything is working perfectly (it thinks)--battery going to float each day with sun, only brief periods of charging and absorption. Voltage max and min show full charge always the 12 v battery never going below around 12.4, the 6v usually showing a min around 12.79.
As I said earlier, it would be helpful if you'd post screenshots.
The monitor is a SYMPTOM, not the issue here.

I read a bit about the shunt and it doesn't sound too easy since it looks like wires need to run both to the battery and inside the camper. Is it simple to run the wire(s) into the camper? And what do they connect to there (the instructions say to connect to "loads and charger")?
The issue is that you're trying to solve a problem with insufficient data. I suggested the SmartShunt so that you have a means of properly measuring the power going in/out of your battery. If your battery is in the front tub, buy the IP65 version and put it somewhere in the front tub. Follow these installation directions. There's no need to run a wire through the camper. "Loads" = power going to the camper; "Charger" = your solar controller.

It would be nice if the app would at least show the settings (though I understand them not being changeable remotely) when not right at the Victron. The settings, however, have no options other than factory default for lead acid. None of the presets apply to my system, and again, all worked fine for over two years and the settings have never been touched.

Your link is the instructions I already had found. What in the tub qualifies as "loads and chargers"? Separate from the batteries which clearly show how to connect in the diagrams. By your definition, where do I hook cables for "power going to the camper"? Separate from the battery connections. The issue may be you are thinking the solar controller is in the tub. It is not. It is under a seat in the camper. Thus my comment about needing to run a wire into the camper.

Cherokee · June 7

kimch said:

Cherokee said:

For what it's worth, I've traveled, boondocked and camped with two 6v batteries wired in series for over 5 years

Good to know. I didn't have any issues for the first two years of my 2023. Does your 2019 have solar with a Victron, and what type of power center does it have?

The 2019 was the last year for a T@B KISS (keep it simple stupid). I simply connect my solar cells directly to my now AGM 6 volt batteries. I keep them on continuous trickle charge while the trailer isn't being used. I only need 95 watts of Zamp Solar while running my 3-way refrigerator on propane. I can stay out for days at a time and watch DVD's at night. The California sun is very reliable. The price of AGM's keep rising while the cost of lithium keeps falling - which is a good thing for those who attempt to do what I do with newer T@B's.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/rt/6pew343g105f.jpg

kimch · June 8

Cherokee said:

kimch said:

Cherokee said:

For what it's worth, I've traveled, boondocked and camped with two 6v batteries wired in series for over 5 years

Good to know. I didn't have any issues for the first two years of my 2023. Does your 2019 have solar with a Victron, and what type of power center does it have?

The 2019 was the last year for a T@B KISS (keep it simple stupid). I simply connect my solar cells directly to my now AGM 6 volt batteries. I keep them on continuous trickle charge while the trailer isn't being used. I only need 95 watts of Zamp Solar while running my 3-way refrigerator on propane. I can stay out for days at a time and watch DVD's at night. The California sun is very reliable. The price of AGM's keep rising while the cost of lithium keeps falling - which is a good thing for those who attempt to do what I do with newer T@B's.

I use Zamps (and some other brands) to charge various things (including other campers) but they are useless for my travels with my T@b as I drive long days, do quick overnight stops along the way. In other words, I don't use the T@b for camping, rather for overnighting as I am moving between locations. So the only solar solution that works for me is having panels atop the camper to charge the batteries as I'm driving. Thus relying on the Victron and WFCO Power Center that came with the camper. (I also have a 2018 which is like your 2019--3 way fridge (I prefer the 2 way) and no rooftop solar.) That said, for my stationary uses, I'm a strong supporter of Zamps and other suitcase panels.

elbolillo · June 8

@kimch What is the amp hour of the 12v battery you are using and is it an AGM or flooded lead acid battery? And what are the amp hours of the 6v batteries? (Are these AGM or flooded lead acid?)

Since the Victron Solar charger will be connected directly to the battery, an easy way to help diagnose the problem would be to turn the battery disconnect off. Then allow the solar panels to completely charge the battery. Then you would need to disconnect the solar charger and allow the batteries to rest and then test them to determine the state of charge.

kimch · June 8

elbolillo said:

@kimch What is the amp hour of the 12v battery you are using and is it an AGM or flooded lead acid battery? And what are the amp hours of the 6v batteries? (Are these AGM or flooded lead acid?)

Since the Victron Solar charger will be connected directly to the battery, an easy way to help diagnose the problem would be to turn the battery disconnect off. Then allow the solar panels to completely charge the battery. Then you would need to disconnect the solar charger and allow the batteries to rest and then test them to determine the state of charge.

For weeks I have been analyzing with power on, power off, full sun days, no sun days, etc. And more recently, the 6vs completely disconnected then tested. To your questions, the 12v is typical, probably 80-90 aH--I don't remember exactly but it's only a Group 24 so not many aH. Wet cell. The 6v wet are 230 aH (which is why I switched to them when the camper was brand new).

I think I may have fixed the issue but I am now in the process of more analysis along the same lines--sunny days, cloudy days, power on, power off.

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