pro and cons winterizing compressed air or antifreeze

Tundra57

I have read a few blogs and watched videos of both methods. The antifreeze method seems to take way less time and doesn't require disconnecting the water pump or toilet valves to drain them. Dewinterizing is probably faster with compressed air and I am sure there are those that cannot tolerate drinking antifreeze in the teeniest amount. If I am going to winterize/dewiterize multiple times over the winter what would be best? I thought maybe do an antifreeze winterize then blow it out with compressed air. Any comments?

Sharon_is_SAM

If you use antifreeze in your plumbing you need to rinse it out of your lines.  Never heard of using a compressor to blow out antifreeze.  

If you are looking for fast any easy, just do this:  
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021717/uploads/editor/6r/eust2xvs5t11.pdf

webers3

For me the blow-out method is the simplest, on 320 with little plumbing it is easy to winterize and no need to de-winterize, just sanitize.

Estancio

For a few years, I tried simply blowing air into the system to eliminate all water. That was not completely successful.

In the past several years, I have drained the water tank, added one gallon of RV antifreeze, run the water pump until pink antifreeze comes from the faucet, then shut everything off. This method has proven 100% effective. I have an older T@B that only has a kitchen faucet and no bathroom nor shower, not any grey/black tanks. 

Tundra57

I read this PDF already. Nice write up. My concern is the water pump as I have the three way fridge so my only access is squeezing in thro the drawer underneath. Not nice to remove hoses and things.

Also making sure the toilet valve is really empty. It seems very vulnerable.

This will be my first winterize. I got the tab already winterized and it took me maybe 30 mins to dewinterize to clear out all antifreeze from the pipes.

So I'm still learning toward the antifreeze method which is also maybe 30 mins tops. Just thought if I blew the antifreeze out, then what's left will protect any nooks and crannies with less antifreeze to push out with fresh water when I dewinterize.

Tundra57

I should mention I have a Tab 400 with outside shower.

VictoriaP

And here I thought the 320 had a lousy pump location.

My concern with the antifreeze via fresh water tank method on a 400 is that there’s some discrepancy about just how much water is inaccessible to the pump in the freshwater tank on that model. I’ve seen people saying you have around 8 gallons that can’t be accessed—can anyone confirm? If that’s correct, wouldn’t that mean you’d need 9 gallons just to winterize? And flushing out 9 gallons in the spring (or worse yet, multiple times over the winter as you mentioned) would not be fun.

Typically when they come winterized from the factory, they use the blowout method and antifreeze only the drain lines. But I agree the risk to the toilet pipes is an issue with that method. At least one person here has set his up so he can attach a hose directly to the toilet line and pump or pour antifreeze through that way.

So if you’re really committed to using antifreeze, I’d personally suggest either using the hand pump adapter type that feeds into the city water port (you'd still have to disconnect the pump briefly to drain that) or adding a permanent winterization kit to the pump such as the one linked below which will allow you to feed antifreeze directly to the pump. Blowout also still means disconnecting the pump to drain, so no matter what, I think you’re going to be messing with it one way or another. For this year, I opted for the permanent kit install on my 320, and pumped antifreeze into the lines after doing the blowout. 

https://smile.amazon.com/Camco-36543-Converter-Winterizing-TRV874795/dp/B0006JJ588/

dCliffhanger

My dealer recommended the antifreeze method. They said they regularly see blow-out winterizers coming in with cracked toilet valves. Because I'm hoping to be moving between cold and warm regularly, I'm planning to use a portable compressor and being particularly careful on the identified weak points, as I learn about them.  I've noticed a point in my pipes T'ing up to the shower that drop a little lower than the normal run of pipes along the floor - a low spot! I found a bright light behind them shows me whether water is left there after blowing them out.

DougH

One possible variable on successful vs. problematic blow-out winterization might be the equipment used.  A tire pump (12V or manual) might work in emergencies, and plenty of us on the forum have done that...  but using a 3-5 gallon air compressor (that's been drained), taking a good half hour to blow lots of air at least twice through every line and valve likely improves the odds of not having enough water remaining to expand and crack.

I'd say something foolish like "I camp regularly in sub-zero temperatures without problems just using the blow-out method", but making that claim is an absolute guarantee that my toilet valve, one waste gate and two pex lines would crack this winter. 

Tundra57

@VictoriaP my dealer fitted that to my tab before delivery. That is how I would use antifreeze. I don't think anyone winterizing a tab ever worries about the leftovers in the water tank. I'm certainly not going to put gallons of antifreeze in it. Seems ridiculous that the drain isn't at the tank bottom

ecstatic

I would recommend draining everything and then blowing all the remaining water out of the lines (there will be more leftover than you would think), and then pumping antifreeze through each faucet and the toilet (don't forget the outdoor shower if you have one).  This will ensure the antifreeze is diluted at all by leftover water.  Fill all the p traps on all the drains with antifreeze as well, and then quickly open/close your grey/black tanks to work a little in their valves.

pthomas745

I read through a lot of the winterizing threads looking for a proper compressor to use for the blow out method.   In Sharon is Sam's blow out method instructions in the winterizing files, she recommended the Viair 70p.  I noodled around a bit more and found this thread, which explains the important feature for a blow out compressor is the CFM number of the compressor.  Most of the tire inflators I've looked at do not discuss their CFM at all.  The Viair claims a CFM of 1.06

The thread.  Look for BrianZ's contribution

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/5990/recommendations-for-compressor-for-winterizing

This video shows a guy testing a large compressor and a bike pump for winterizing, and showed how the bike pump could certainly be useful in a pinch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf-DJCDPMkk&t=

jkjenn

DougH said:

One possible variable on successful vs. problematic blow-out winterization might be the equipment used.  A tire pump (12V or manual) might work in emergencies, and plenty of us on the forum have done that...  but using a 3-5 gallon air compressor (that's been drained), taking a good half hour to blow lots of air at least twice through every line and valve likely improves the odds of not having enough water remaining to expand and crack.

I'd say something foolish like "I camp regularly in sub-zero temperatures without problems just using the blow-out method", but making that claim is an absolute guarantee that my toilet valve, one waste gate and two pex lines would crack this winter. 

Yup...agree. 

jkjenn

I bought an oil-free pancake compressor the first year I bought my T@b and the only thing I really use it for is winterizing but it was so worth it.

I have a portable ARB compressor for inflating tires.

Sharon_is_SAM

@pthomas745, the CFM info is good to know.  I know our portable 12 volt is not the most powerful or fastest way to blow out our lines, but it is compact, and easy to carry as an emergency tire inflator.  If it breaks, I will shop for one with a higher CFM.

DenisP

I have a Viair 400 RV which has a CFM rating of 2.3 cfm @0 psi. It works well as a tool to winterize, top of both camper and Truck tires and other inflation needs. I was lucky enough to find it barely used on Craigslist from someone who had sold a class A Motorhome.  It is a pretty good compromise of power and portability. A bit pricey though. 

TNOutback

I’m on the fence on this topic, and with prior campers I have done both methods.  I would say I tended more towards the air pressure method in the past because we became over time more frequent winter campers, and I never encounter a problem in what was probably 10 years’ worth of air pressure-only winterizations.  

Now having said that, this weekend I installed an antifreeze bypass kit in between the fresh water tank and the water pump!  I did this mainly because this Tab 400 is a much larger financial investment than past TTs, and I wanted to at least make the option of fluid winterization an easier process.  (And I will use this method before I send my Tab to the dealer after Thanksgiving for the long list of warranty repairs to be done, or if using off-site winter storage at some point.). Otherwise, I may stick with the air pressure method if we are winter camping, knowing I have the Alde system I could fall back on during extreme or prolonged cold snaps .  We are also lucky enough in the 400 in that the water supply hose to the toilet is exposed and easily accessible, allowing me to pump antifreeze directly into the toilet’s valve (and not circulating/filling all of the water system in the camper).

tabiphile

Why not do both? Winter damage happens when a small amount of water remains in the system. The compressed air approach removes most of it but a small amount of condensation may remain in the lines and find its way to a low spot. Running antifreeze through insures that everything is protected. Either method takes only a few minutes to accomplish. Doing both does not take that much longer. Don't forget the pump filter!

webers3

@Tundra57 Just finished winterizing via blow-out method, whole process took 1 hour, from emptying the tanks to blowing-out all lines x2. Ready for the next trip on a short notice without having to flush the antifreeze from all the lines. My 320 is parked at a storage facility so I don't have access to water to do the flushing of the antifreeze and emptying it out. Everyone's situation is different, for me the blow-out works and is the easiest and the quickest (and envir friendly) for winterizing/de-winterizing

ecstatic

tabiphile said:

Don't forget the pump filter!

What shouldn't we forget to do with the pump filter?

Fergie

At the sake of being repetitive, I re-post my experience as a cautionary tale from last year below:

" May 2018

Well I guess after three years and putting over 11,000 miles on the T@B with no significant problems, one can begin to expect a little wear and tear on the outfit and the resulting maintenance. First it was the frame cracks as has been heavily noted by quite a few on the forum here. Now it is the plumbing! 

I take some responsibility for this problem that I see has been a common one with many users of the Thetford Aqua-Magic V toilet that is installed in our T@B's.  For the first two seasons I dutifully winterized the whole system with antifreeze and then went through the tedious and irritating process of flushing it all out in the spring.  

Last fall, after having moved to Alaska from Minnesota and having all the "settling chores" such a move entails, I opted for the "easy" method of just blowing out the lines and putting antifreeze only in the traps and grey/black water tanks. So when I first hooked up the water to the city water I was met with gushing water out the back of the toilet! Fortunately for we T@B'ers our toilet is mounted in a shower basin and the water just ran down into the grey water tank until I could rush outside and turn the city water off.  As you will see from one of the YouTube videos I posted below, many RV's don't mount their Aqua-Magic toilets in a watertight shower booth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrB2-WBWi88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbWkCzIoOKc

The problem was and is a common one with the Thetford.  If you don't blow out the whole system with high-pressure air thoroughly, especially through the valve assembly on the back of the toilet, water remains in the bottom of the valve where, when frozen, cracks a weak spot on the valve connector to the hose. The following pictures of the valve assembly and the close up of the cracked hose connector show the fracture of my bad unit. (The jagged white  area) This is where virtually all the bad valves fail according to the RV guy where I bought the replacement valve.  Most good RV parts shops carry these Thetford parts.

Replacing the valve required taking out the toilet. The two YouTube videos show how this is done. The first one shows the best detail of the process, but was one installed in an RV with more working room (but not water sealed as mentioned before).  The second was in a cramped shower toilet similar to the T@B. I had no problem taking the toilet out and putting it back, but I found some difficulty getting the new valve in the slot provided in the toilet. All in all it is not to bad a job compared to pulling and repairing a house toilet, which I have done many times. 

I really don't like the idea of not having a shut-off valve on water lines directly in the area where they service. Having to shut the whole RV (or house for that matter) water supply in case something breaks is always a problem. So the one modification I made while the toilet was out was to install a standard toilet water supply shut-off valve on the 1/2 inch plastic fitting coming out of the wall as shown below.

 

I then used a hose with a 1/2 inch connection at the toilet end (that I installed while the toilet was out) and a 3/8 inch connection to the shut-off valve. It was very hard to tighten the connection to the valve due to lack of room for a wrench after re-installing the toilet, but using some small, stubby angled pliers I was able to get it tight. I always use Teflon tape on these type of joints even though not required. It assures a watertight connection and makes it easier to take off later for service if needed.  

The toilet is now back in service and I feel better having a shut-off valve right next to the unit! 

Fergie"

Like I said, this is a cautionary tale! 

BrianZ

@Fergie, although we live in a more moderate climate than MN or AK, I still took your cautionary tale seriously and modified my winterizing routine so I can use the water pump to deliver antifreeze directly through the toilet flush valve, which also gets to the waste tank valve.  I can also inject antifreeze through the outdoor shower lines separately without putting antifreeze into the rest of the plumbing. 
Here is my writeup with photos..

https://tabforum.nucamprv.com/#/discussion/9137/a-modified-hybrid-winterizing-method-pump-toilet-shower

lkc001

The previous owner of my Tab had a permanent winterizing kit installed at the water pump so I used the antifreeze method of bypassing the alde system and pumping antifreeze from the jug through the water lines.  I feel safer using the antifreeze method.  RV antifreeze is non toxic--unlike regular car antifreeze and I have found it is not that big of a deal to flush out the lines in the spring.  I do not put antifreeze in the water tank.   I do not drink the water out of the tank or use it for cooking anyway.   It was simple to do and hopefully I did everything correctly!  I will find out in the spring.  

Tundra57

So after seeing the storm of comments, my solution this first year will be to winterize my 2019 tab with antifreeze. Come time to dewinterize I'll use a compressor to blow out the excess antifreeze and wash thro with water from my cold water tank until all looks clear. Don't want to risk a broken toilet valve or forget to reconnect the water pump when using blowout. I'll see how cumbersome it is.

Thanks for all the awesome discussions.

dCliffhanger

I think, maybe, I've come up with a good approach to the Blowout vs Antifreeze issue. I concur that antifreeze provides the surest protection. However, the blowout method gives the flexibility and speed of winterizing when on the road or making frequent trips to varying climates from South to North without having to drain and flush multiple times. The toilet valve seems to be the weak point in the blowout method. After listening to my dealer, looking at the above fractured valves and watching the videos linked by Fergie above, I came up with a Plan C. 

That consists of doing a standard blowout and trap fill. Then I did this: I detached the toilet connection from the wall and connected my Camco Antifreeze pump to the toilet side and, after propping the valve fully open (you need 3 hands), pumped antifreeze into the valve until it spurted out into the toilet. It took only a few ounces. Reconnect the hose to the wall, replace the antifreeze that got dumped down the toilet, and presto! That should displace all water in the toilet system. 

I simply pulled and replaced the 3/4" brass garden hose/city water connection from the Camco output with a nylon fitting consisting of a 3/8" hose barb on one end and  a 1/2" male threaded end on the other which fits into the female toilet hose connection. I took photos but haven't transferred them yet. This might be a $2.50 answer to this issue.

Fergie

dCliffhanger:

A great solution if you have the room to disconnect and reconnect the supply hose. As you can see from my photos above, the 2015 T@B's still had the black water tank vent pipe protruding and routed through the toilet area leaving very little room for wrenches or even fingers if you used a plastic connection.

Still a great solution for the newer T@B's!

Sharon_is_SAM

@dCliffhanger.  I think you can talk me into this for our clamshell.  It would be a hassle to need to pull out the toilet in the event of a crack.

dCliffhanger

Fergie said:

dCliffhanger:

A great solution if you have the room to disconnect and reconnect the supply hose. As you can see from my photos above, the 2015 T@B's still had the black water tank vent pipe protruding and routed through the toilet area leaving very little room for wrenches or even fingers if you used a plastic connection.

Still a great solution for the newer T@B's!

You certainly don't have much room.  Having the the supply hose being hand tight-enable also helps as no tools are needed in what is only a 5-10 minute job. Maybe you can change the connections somehow. Possibly put in a T that would make the connection accessible from the top giving you more working\turning room?

DougH

I just tried one of those waterpump conversion winterizing kits.  You thread a three way valve and tube in place before the waterpump and run the vinyl tube into a gallon container of the pink stuff and rotate the valve to pull from there, instead of from the fresh tank.  In theory.



I normally just do blowout method.  But since I sometimes use the toilet while winter camping, and take showers using a separate 5 gal water container, I thought this year I could just rest a jug of pink stuff behind the toilet (it fits perfectly), and simply flush the toilet with the pink stuff.  And after a Navy shower of a half gallon of clean water, I could use the T@B shower hose to run a matching half gallon of -50F pink stuff into the gray tank.

Or that's what I was hoping for.

I forgot our waterpump is hard to prime and doesn't have a whole lot of pulling power even when primed.  I had to have (1) the waterpump on, (2) the gallon jug at shoulder height, and (3) have a toilet valve or kitchen sink valve partially open.  Then I also had to (4) have my hand making a seal around the top of the jug where the tube ran out, and I (5) had to squeeze the tub of pink stuff.  Only then did it fill the tube to the waterpump, and eventually come out the sink tap, the external shower tap, the toilet, and the internal shower taps.  So I'm doubly winterized now, but my dream of just flushing the toilet with pink stuff utilizing a jug in the bathroom corner is no more.  It would work if I would be willing to fill the fresh tank with gallons and gallons of the pink stuff of course, but I was hoping to only drain tanks, use blowout method, then have a jug with which to flush the toilet until spring. 

Didn't work.

Guess I could put a small self priming battery powered liquid transfer pump in the jug to push the pink stuff up to the new valve while using the camper waterpump.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01L297JOW/

Or better yet, replace the stock waterpump with a stronger one that could easily deal with pulling fluids up a 3-4 foot 3/8" vinyl tube filled with air.  Our stock waterpump has always needed babying by lots of folks on this forum to get it to prime after de-winterizing, or when first filling the fresh tank after a long time between camping journeys.

ChanW

Yeah, @DougH, I'd say your pump is pitiful... It shouldn't be that difficult to prime. It's a "self priming" pump! Replace...

Looks like a cool device though.

VictoriaP

@DougH I used the same kit, but stole the o-ring from the brass cap and added it to the black plastic hose adapter because there was no suction otherwise. Worked perfectly, no issues other than now I need another o-ring for the cap before spring as it’s impossible to pull back out of the adapter. 🙄

But...I can’t say my pump has been difficult to prime so far. Still, trying an o-ring is a cheap experiment before replacing the pump.

Edit to add: the O-ring is a #11, 3/4” OD by 9/16” ID.