Roof insulation lacking?

rbtx

We’re still evaluating the 400 waiting to see how things get resolved with the air conditioning issues so important in Texas.  Those issues pushed us to explore other options just in case.  Saturday we visited the local dealer to view the 400 again and we also took a look at the Sol Horizon and Sol Dawn which are somewhat competitors to the 400 and 320.  It was about 90 degrees very early afternoon with full on sun.  Virtually all trailers on the dealers lot had the doors open for ease of customers to explore at will.  Walking into the Sol trailers we noticed they were unexpectedly comfortable in 90 degrees despite only the door being open (you pass by these on the way to the NuCamps).  Then we briefly viewed the Avia because it was there (but likely out of our reach for multiple reasons) and it was quite hot inside (just the door open) and noticed the same on the 400, quite hot with just the door open. We reached up to the ceiling of the 400 and it was very warm to the touch.  Went back to the Avia and same thing, but even hotter I thought.  So, you guessed it, we went back to the Sol Horizon and the ceiling was very neutral to the touch - not cool exactly, but really not warm either which helped explained why it was so much more comfortable in there with just the door open compared to the 400 and Avia.  I thought the NuCamp trailers were well enough insulated, but the difference really stood out in 90 degrees (and it gets so much hotter than that in the summer in Texas).  It made me think about the difficulties the new 400 AC is having keeping things cool. I know there are several solutions being explored as noted here in the Forum, but heat transfer through the ceiling surely contributes to the heat load.  I guess the overall ambient temperature inside for any reason could have caused the ceilings to be so warm to the touch rather than heat transfer through the ceiling from the outside, but I don’t think that was the case. I’m not bashing the NuCamp products because we are still impressed with so many design features, but it would be silly of us to ignore something like this in the heat of Texas where we plan to do a lot of weekend trips.  Any feedback from others noting similar comparisons would be of interest.  As many have said here, do the comparisons and gather information for your own needs and make a decision.  And that’s what we’re attempting to do. Thanks for all the great contributions across all topics here.

VictoriaP

The roof construction of the Tab models is a thin sheet of aluminum, a thin sheet of Azdel composite, about an inch of styrofoam, thin Azdel interior sheet, and then the ceiling liner. Plus some aluminum framing/beams. In other words, your “insulation” is limited to the styrofoam, which at the 1” mark has a pretty low R value of 3-4. Heat or cold routinely transmit through the aluminum studs as well.

There are a number of reasons these don’t qualify as 4 season campers, this is a big one. Camping in Winters below freezing or Summers that greatly exceed 90° will either require that you make significant changes to the Tab or, possibly more sensibly, buy a true 4 season trailer.

A change to the AC unit in the 400 would definitely improve things on the high temp side of that equation, though. We rarely hear complaints from earlier 400 owners about the performance of the CoolCat that was previously used, so if they replace the current Elwell unit with something higher powered, perhaps it will be sufficient.

Most people I know down south seem to forgo summer camping in favor of winter, which is also an option for getting around the poor insulation/underpowered AC issue.

jkjenn

I believe that the Avia and 400, both have more windows than the Sols and likely the reason for the temperature difference.

DougH

From last year...  thermal camera of T@B roof and air conditioner / window area on rear drivers side.  The aluminum framing acts as a fairly good conductor.

Regardless, much more comfy in anything (but perfect weather) compared to tent camping. 

Tundra57

Ultimately depends how how long you will stay in the camper in extreme weather and what living temperature you can tolerate.

You can buy true 4 season campers but they are much less common, more expensive and way heavier.

I opted to go for the lighter well made tab and deal with how I can camp in it in adverse weather. I have a 2019 tab 400 and the coolcat can keep it really cold.

For cooler temps above 50 the coolcat heat pump works great. The Alde works well in cold temps. Some guys here used it in real cold situations. The other issue you will see here a lot is the water side of things as the tanks are not naturally heated. But you can camp winterized with water stored inside to use for flushing washing and drinking. So it all depends on what you want to do and what you are willing to trade off.

Even a true 4 season has it's limits, it can't be as insulated as a well designed house, but you can't tow that. Trailers in trailer parks are also light on insulation but the owners survive perfectly well.

So you trade is weight, cost and in the end a design you like.

Happy camping in whatever you chose.

rbtx

Thanks to all for the input.  We recognize 4 season trailers exist, but the intent was really comparing supposedly 3 season campers and the noticeable difference with inside temperatures without cooling under the same circumstances and setting - very noticeable when our intent wasn’t really about comparing temperatures, just reviewing size and features.  It almost sounds like certain 3 season trailers can be more like 2 or 2-1/2 season trailers in Texas - haha. Even in Central Texas we have some freezing that occurs, but typically just a few days at a time (freezing pipes in homes are not unheard of).  And then, of course, plenty of days over 90 degrees.  The more comfort one can obtain without having to run the heck out of the AC, the better.  We’re not at a place in life where we can chase cooler temps in the summer - thus mostly summer weekend Texas trips planned for initial years of use.  And it takes forever to get out of Texas for just weekend trips.  Think of the old expression “the sun has ris’, the sun has set - and here I am in Texas yet”.  There’s trade offs among all the trailers and thankfully we’re not in a hurry and we find great people willing to share information and experiences on forums like this.

rh5555

Excessive heat is not a problem here in the Pacific Northwest, but I was wondering:  Has anyone tried a shade cloth to stop the sun's rays beating directly on your trailer roof?  I seems like the Keder rails might be re-purposed to guide some supports for such a cloth...?

Verna

@Homebodyatheart has had success using a shelter To help with rain and heat. Maybe she’ll chime in here. 

jgram2

I know @Homebodyatheart uses a 13x13 canopy over their 320. Don’t know if there’s such a thing whose measurements would work for a 400.  https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/100877#Comment_100877

Homebodyatheart

Sorry for the delay @rbtx! Yes, for the 320 S model any pop up awning with 10x10 straight leg span can be “walked” over the Tab for  shade. Because I was in a campground where you could not stake anything into the ground, I wrapped some of the rail and towels with ball bungees and made sure the four legs were tied to something so the wind wouldn’t pick it up and carry it off, scraping the trailer in the process. It made a difference in temps in the trailer, too. 

rbtx

Thanks @Homebodyatheart - that would surely help with the heat in a Tab in Texas.  Maybe when the AC issues are resolved with the new models, that coupled with some additional coverage like this could make it much more feasible in the heat.

RCB

A T@B with factory installed solar panels will be hotter than without. I’ve thought it would be better if those panels were solid and mounted with some air space between them and the roof surface. It would probably extend the life of the panels and provide shade to the area the panels covered.

jkjenn

RCB said:

A T@B with factory installed solar panels will be hotter than without. I’ve thought it would be better if those panels were solid and mounted with some air space between them and the roof surface. It would probably extend the life of the panels and provide shade to the area the panels covered.

The panels they are using are not I lacted by the lack of air circulation like traditional flexible panels. "Unlike traditional solar, SUN2 cells have a lower temperature coefficient, so they create more power during the warmest hours – without the need for air circulation beneath them to cool down."

TabberJohn

I think @RCB has a valid point.
If the solar panels covered more of the roof and were elevated above it, say half an inch, the result would be substantially less heat transfer into the T@B cabin. The panels would heat up, not the roof.
You'd be more comfortable in the cabin on a hot day and gain more watts. Win-win.