2019 Tab400 boondock tank heating upgrade

Tundra57

Here is the upgrade I performed on my tab using the Alde heating system to keep the freshwater and grey tanks from freezing.

DougH

47.3F is great. Thank you for the interesting read.

Tabaz

Nice job!  Especially like the electric fresh water tank drain valve.  No more crawling around under the trailer in order to dump that tank.  Can't wait to see how you enclose the black and gray valve area on the 400.

Tundra57

I'm rather disappointed on how few tabbers read my write up. Took me ages. I guess the installation is old hat now. Oh well.

Bayliss

@Tundra57, I do not have a 400, but I did read it and appreciated all the effort you put into it.  I don't anticipate doing a similar modification, but the info I read on this site from all forum participants (and I do read all the posts) is always illuminating, helpful and educational.  Keep the comments and great ideas coming.  I suspect folks are not responding simply because they have chosen to stick with the original design of their camper..........but, someday, that may change and they will be thanking you for having posted a detailed summary of all your hard work.  That's the way I have viewed it when I have posted something and get only one (or not even one) response.

tybladesmith

@Tundra57, Chris you did a beautiful writeup. Your electrical panel wiring photos demonstrate the planning and forethought that went into your project.
You,  @Tabaz, @DougH and others have pioneered the winter heated tank modifications, each with different latitudes, needs, and approaches. They are all very helpful writeups for those who will follow.
My tab is a 2018 320S and I went with an all heating hose approach for now and am now working on the valve box design and insulation.

Tundra57

Thanks that makes me feel better. :-)

TabberJohn

Tundra57 said:

I'm rather disappointed on how few tabbers read my write up. Took me ages. I guess the installation is old hat now. Oh well.

Keep in mind the percentage of four season T@bbers is small and for many their 4th season means "head south for the winter". 
I see your write-up as research with tangible results for the select few who have the ability and desire to tackle this mod. It's also excellent feedback for nuCamp to consider should they decide to offer a four season model in the future.
I think more people would purchase the option versus attempting the mod themselves.

DougH

And I'm going to need to need your collective guidance on valve insulated box options, since I cannot really hit the highway at 10F or colder. Half the time when I'm coming out of the mountains on the morning I head home, or trying to find better snow, there's no dump station nearby and it's -25F to 0F outside. 

I just wonder if I can afford losing 2" of ground clearance since the drains are my low point and I frequently drive with 6" of fluff on the road (and don't want to switch to a raised axle).  So maybe I need to put a small snowplow on the front of the station wagon at the same time as I put the drain box on?  

DougH

@Tundra57 @TNOutback @tybladesmith @Tabaz  

TNOutback's recent post on another thread regarding portable storage might be a good alternative for part of the winter camping solution.

I can stay fairly well thawed when stationary / camped...  but not so much on the road. Not sure if there's been enough testing of the convector / insulated box approach at 65mph & 0F to know if it suffers from the same issue at lower temperatures. But we could all just drain our black and gray tanks into a portable unit (as long as there hadn't been too many showers the previous week), and stick it in the back of our TVs until we find a dump station each time we move or head back home.  In my case lifting much more than five gallons would bother my back, but I have a winch back there and could rig up a ramp to pull the thing up, since most of them have decent sized wheels.

Has there ever been a case where a 5-15 gallon portable tote full of sewage suddenly sprung a leak, forcing the owner to permanently abandon the vehicle? 

Tundra57

I hope my sewer tote doesn't ever leak. I did run my system on the road but not at 0 yet.

Amazonica

Tundra57, please don’t be disappointed yet. I am in an area with dismal reception. I am waiting to download and read your write up. Thank you for taking the time! We true full timers have some unique challenges, know that your efforts are appreciated. 🙂

atlasb

Well done and documented.  Question,  are the nuts holding the axel, welded to the frame or are they loose?  Can you suggest any areas safe for using jack stands to support the frame.  Getting ready to up grade our 3500# axel to the newer 3900#.

Thanks for the info.

Tundra57

I don't know about the axle details. There is at least one tabber who has done it. Did you try using the search within this site?

ScottG

Tundra57 said:

I'm rather disappointed on how few tabbers read my write up. Took me ages. I guess the installation is old hat now. Oh well.

Keep in mind that the majority of us (myself included) are probably fair-weather campers whose T@Bs are hibernating once the mercury hits freezing. It's not old hat, you're just marketing to a pretty small audience.

I do admire you hearty souls who venture out in all seasons and have modified your T@Bs to be able to do so. Please keep it up and keep writing about it!

PamandJohnUpNorth2

@Tundra57 Ditto what @Amazonica said. Downloaded the write-up today. Thanks for taking the time to document and share with us all!

Tundra57

Thanks for the support guys. :-)

kemcgraw

Just found your info. I’d like something like that so we could extend our camping season but neither of us is at all handy. We live in Colorado, so even going south in Jan and Feb we’d be going through some freezing temps. Thanks so much for your work. 

Michael McGraw 

DougH

@kemcgraw ; You also have the option of just not using the fresh water system for the occasional Colorado camping trip at 20F, or travel through subfreezing temperature zones on your way to New Mexico.  Drain the system and blow out the lines in October as usual, then bring 2.5g or 5g water containers to drink from and take occasional short pseudo-showers in the wet bath.  But every time you put water or waste in the black or gray tank also add in some pink RV tank antifreeze.  Lots of folks on the forum do this to extend their season. There's some reports out there that even 25-35% pink stuff will offer protection down to the teens in temperature.  And the black tank is above the floor so is less likely to freeze.  With the fresh tank and lines empty, it's the gray tank and black and gray tank valves that are at most risk.  But again... only if you're not mixing in enough pink stuff for the anticipated temperatures.  You can use the T@B all winter at temperatures down to -20F with this approach (and several of us on the forum have).

Even people with Grand Design, Outdoors RV, Lance "Four Season" or "Arctic Protection" packages have to take precautions when hitting the road with any water in their tanks or lines. Some models have heat blowing through a sealed basement, a little extra insulation wrapped around the tanks and valves, and 12V heating pads and heat cable protecting things.  But then you have to have enough power to leave everything powered on including propane with the furnace going.  Not sure a six hour drive at 5F wouldn't be a problem for any rig that didn't follow a good winter prep procedure.

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Folks who have extended the T@B heating system or added electrical heating below have done so to allow the fresh tank to work too... at least when stationary. It's a little easier to do dishes and take navy showers that way, and we also can use a lot less RV pink stuff until we hit the road again.  If there's a dump station anywhere nearby we need not bother with pink stuff except in the traps along with a little bit for the black and gray tank valves.  We just have to:

1. dump the fresh tank near the camp site,
2. blow out the lines with a tire inflator hooked to city water input,
3. drive to the dump station with the Alde on or tank and valve heating on,
4. dump the other tanks,
5. add a little pink stuff to the sink, shower and toilet,
6. then move to the next destination, and 
7. refill the fresh tank.  

But only if you've done some of the mods to enable fresh tank use below freezing.

qhumberd

I too just found this and it is a great solution that uses the Alde on board rather than heat tape, etc. Love to see the real world experience folks have with this modification

dCliffhanger

I know I've seen and participated in some other basement heating projects. But, I'll chime in here. I planned and bought radiators to enclose, insulate and heat the basement of my 2020 T@B 320s Boondock. I finally put it up on blocks to tackle the project. After removing the black underside, I think I've changed the approach I want to take. And, I'm somewhat tramatized by the challenge of the keeping the drains unfrozen.  Instead of using the radiator to heat all the air under there, it seems more effective to apply heat directly to the tanks by gluing the aluminum tracks used for underfloor heating. Attached directly to the fresh and gray tanks with the Alde hot fluid running through them is my new idea. The tanks and hot tracks could be wrapped in insulation to make more direct use of the heat. I could still install one of the radiators. I would still enclose\seal the basement with insulation to still capture capture and retain heat.  In the 320s that should be easy from the rear up past the axle and just past the fresh tank. However because the gray curves nearly 6 inches below the frame, the enclosing becomes unflat and more challenging.  Then even more challenging, is somehow heating and enclosing the drains which hang outside and even lower.  I'm thinking of putting the fresh drain behind a trap door. Though Tundra57's remote valve sounds great. No idea where I'd get one though. Same with all the electrical monitors and new controls.  My thought so far may be running the warm alde line up and around the drain and pipes and then forming expandable foam insulation around them. I'm wondering if splitting the alde line into 2 or three would be more or less effective rather than running one long one that would get cooler and cooler the longer the run.  I want to minimize any clearance loss as I actually use it! And, in general, using electrical pads or such uses too much power for my solar panel to support off grid. I just came back from two weeks in Colorado mountains, down to 30 with 9" of snow operating completely on solar. I'd love to be able to handle 10 degrees.  I've seen some insulation\enclosure jobs that are easily removed for service so that would be nice.  One afterthought is that I don't like that my propane to Alde line runs exposed outside my frame. I'm thinking of rerouting that inside it as part of this. All experience, insights and ideas are welcome!

Cheryl13

Just found this post as well.  We squeezed through last winter, arriving back in Ohio from the west and spent the weekend before thanksgiving winterizing our Tab 400 for the first time.  We really want to extend our season, as well as be able to travel through the mountains to get to warmer climes and are committed to doing this soon.  Your well documented approach will help my hubby get this done. Thx