Generator and Air8

NoVaGuy

Ok, so I purchased the Champion 2000 watt generator for my occasional Boondocking outings in the summer.  I tried it out today, and it seems that it will not take the starting amperage of the Air8z. I thought I had enough, I guess I was wrong.

what are my options?

TNOutback

@NoVaGuy I can run the Air8 on my Wen 2250 with no problem.

AirBoss

A/C's  do grab serious amps at start up. Assume you everything shut off in the rig? Tried stating Air 8 in fan mode only? Will the genset run most everything else without issue with Air 8? 

NoVaGuy

Fan works, everything else works.  I did try starting it with everything else off

N7SHG_Ham

Not all 2k class generators have same capacity. Buying on price alone isn't always going to meet your needs.

CrabTab

@NoVaGuy

I don't have the breadth of knowledge with 400s to be aware of an Easy Start type capacitor unit that would help your situation. That leaves two paths that come to mind;

* Buy a second 2000W champion and a parallel link unit. This should provide you with the same 30Amp power you get from a campground pedestal (Run that microwave, recharge the battery AND run the AC).

*Sell your 2000W unit and go bigger (Get it listed before the next big storm rolls up the coast and it may sell quick when the meteorologists go in overtime mode on the local news).

Best of luck with the journey...

AirBoss

May want to reach out to Champion to see what the max amp's the unit will handle at A/C start-up and compare that with what the Air 8 draws at startup. May also want to investigate an easy-start capacitor which gets the genset over the initial amp draw.  

And just as I posted this, @CrabTab mentions the easy start capacitor as well. For the benefit of those of us who are considering a genset, please share what you did to investigate and how you came to the decision that you did. 

Cheers and good luck!

Denny16

The Honda 2200i works with both the TaB400 CoolCat s s Air 8 ACs, both under gas and propane conversions.  See last three posts here: https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/11508/alp-propane-1000w-generator#latest
cheers

johnfconway

Propane conversions may be different than propane mode in a dual fuel. Before spending a tidy sum on the Genconnex Honda propane conversion, made sure there would be no diminution in startup and running watts vs. gasoline. In that case... same as gasoline. With the Wen DF475T dual fuel generator used with the home service box, propane provides 92% of wattage generated by gasoline.

rh5555

@NoVaGuy, something is wrong here.  A 2000W generator should easily run the AIR8.  My propane-converted Honda EU2000I has no issue with my AIR8.  Either your generator isn't cutting it, or you have an AIR8 that is defectively pulling way too much current on startup.  Testing the generator is simplest.  Plug in a 1500W load (like an electric kettle) and see if it stalls.  If it cannot do that, you've got a bad generator.  If the generator passes that test, the AIR8 looks to be a likely culprit.

N7SHG_Ham

One thing often overlooked when comparing these small 2k generators is engine displacement. Honda 2200i is 121cc, Champion 2000 dual fuel is 80cc. The Honda has 50% more displacement, as they say, no substitute for displacement. I think lots of reviews have shown under load the Honda's do have more grunt for getting big loads started.

NoVaGuy

I
before I picked the champion; I looked on this site, reviewed the running load of the Air8; capacity of various genders including the Champion; after settling on the champion, called champion to confirm.  

I ultimately went with the champion due to its availability, it’s weight, and my ability to use Cabelas  points.

AirBoss

Not telling you anything you don't already know but something is definitely amiss here. The Champion should be able to handle the Air 8 at start up with ease, especially if you've shut down all other loads. 

I presume the Air 8 runs as normal under shore power, correct? Maybe I missed that above. Not a fuse issue, correct?  

NoVaGuy

Correct.  It ran fine the last time I had it connected to shore power.  

johnfconway

Your colored map shows states with places at higher altitudes. We are at 6100 ft. elevation. Honda needed carburetor jet for 4000 - 9000 ft. Wen has different jet for every 1000 ft. above 4000. If your generator was purchased by someone else and returned, it's possible they screwed with jet. Maybe have Champion send elevation-appropriate jet for your elevation and change it out?

NoVaGuy

interesting idea, am at sea level this interesting idea.  Am at sea level this weekend

johnfconway

Only put that out there since being in propane mode is one power drag and carburetor looking for air is another. Two combined might leave wattage below Air8 start-up threshold?

Also note what someone said earlier about engine size. I did not go with the propane Yamaha 2200 due to its 79cc engine vs. 121cc in Honda. That's a 53% difference. I'm no expert, but I've got to believe there's more of a power buffer in the larger engine when operating conditions are less than optimal.

NoVaGuy

@johnfconway  I agre that engine size is a driver.  That being said, this generator is seriously quiet.  Not that sound matters when the A/C will not work.

I think my options are:

1) check to make sure Air8 is operating properly
2) Check to make sure generator is operating properly

Depending on 1 and 2:
3) sell and replace generator with a larger model; or
4) by a second generator of the same size and gang them.

NoVaGuy

Ok so I went back to check my notes which led me to chose the Champion.  

According to the manual, the Air* starting current is 15A for less than 1sec.  The champion has a 20A "circuit breaker". 

Not sure how to test to see if it is in fact a 15A start up surge, or that the "fuse" or "circuit breaker" on the generator is functioning properly.  Regardless, the Champion should handle the Air*.

AirBoss

Believe you mentioned the Air 8 operates normally when on shore power, correct? While not conclusive, that would seem to indicate concentrating on the genset would stand a better chance of isolating the issue.

BTW, not sure it matters (haven't investigated) but which Champion do you have? Looks like there a several different models at that rating. 

If you're at home, ensure the genset is running properly and then try plugging in something that draws 15-20 amps. A few items you may have around would be a hair dryer (10amps), an oil-filled radiator (13amps), a toaster (9amps), a vacuum (7-9amps), etc. Those are averages but you see where I'm going. 

Start the genset. Turn off "Eco" mode. Plug in some combitnation of the above items or similar (switched on) into a heavy-duty extension cord (not the little white one under the couch!), then plug the extension cord into the genset. With those items in the "on" position they'll approximate something akin to 15-18amp start up draw. You could plug them in separately as well, though it does seem like the intial amp draw at start up may be the issue with the genset. 

All that said, in looking at the Champion specs on line as I type this, the 120V outlets indicate "Max 14.2Amps." I assume (dangerous!) that this would hold true for the other Champion 2000W models. That would not seem to bode well for inital amp draw of 15amps of the Air 8. The marketing narrative of the Champion also indicates it's for "Power items around the RV like lights or TV or provide backup power for a few basics like lights, microwave, TV, modem/router or phone charger. This unit is not recommended for emergency home backup for air conditioners, stoves, furnaces or sump pumps."
 
On the surface, it would seem the Champion may not have the horsepower to crank the Air 8 over. Have you tried putting the Air 8 in fan mode only at start up, then selecting the A/C mode? 

I appreciate all the input here from you and others. I'm in the market for a genset and have narrowed the field to four or five. This thread may have narrowed that field a bit...

TNOutback

@NoVaGuy @AirBoss I believe the issue is the Champion genset’s breaker.  Unless labeled otherwise, NEC says it should trip at 80% of its rated load (20A rated breaker would trip at 16 amps.) My guess is the inrush current of the Air8’s motor is close enough to the Champion’s breaker setting it is tripping out.  I too am curious what the receptacle rating is on that genset.

The outlets on my WEN 2250 are labeled as 20 amp (NEMA 5-20R), but elsewhere the literature says they are 15A receptacles.  Whichever it is, the genset has no problem with the Air8 startup.

AirBoss

@TNOutback
Yep...my guess as well. Thought perhaps using a few household appliances (either in bulk start or in sequence) might help him determine that. Just think the Champ isn't quite there, unfortunately. 

Be interested to see what @NoVaGuy determines and how it's resolved. 

N7SHG_Ham

The instantaneous start up amps are difficult to capture with run if the mill amp meters due to the short duration. It seems I watched a video on the MicroAir web site where they had actually made an amp meter to capture those peak locked rotor amps.

Speaking of MicroAir, that might be one way for the OP to use the Champion, that would be a $300 cost plus labor. I am thinking of one on my CoolCat as even the Honda chokes for a second when AC compressor starts. They definitely make an easier start, even on shore power.

CrabTab

@NoVaGuy

Is this the generator you picked up from Cabela's?

We have this one (purchased with club points). It handles the punky needs of the AC in the 320.

Just for fun I tested it with some power tools when I first received it last year. It did operate my 12" Dewalt miter saw (about a 13 Amp draw). It would not start my Porter Cable twin tank air compressor. Can't readily find a spec on the compressor. It routinely runs on 15Amp circuits though.

An additional thought... What gauge wire are you running to the trailer? The 30Amp with an adapter for the generator receptacle?

NoVaGuy

@CrabTab

close.  I purchased the duel fuel version.  According to the literature, it should handle 20A.  I am using a 30A cable with adapter

AirBoss

If your within 15%-20% of the intial amp draw it will likely trip. Adapter may an issue as well but can't be sure. 

Were you testing on propane or gas. Propane offers reduce output as mentioned above. 

rh5555

@NoVaGuy, could you clarify the nature of the failure?  Does the generator stumble or stall?  Does a circuit breaker pop? Does some alarm go off?

NoVaGuy

@Airboss I was on fuel.

@rh5555 the generator needed to be reset.  It ran, but no output