New Towing vehicle advice

Sunny2WS

Hi,
I own a 2006 Dutchmen T@B, may be also looking to buy newish 320 S.  I have towed with a 2011 Honda Pilot for 10 years, but have been researching potential new tow vehicles. I have scoured the numbers on torque, and hp on many vehicles, and test driven a Toyota Tacoma, Ford Ranger, Ford Explorer, Chevy Colorado, Honda Passport, and Jeep Grand Cherokee (limited).  I use the same vehicle to go to work in Seattle, so would like a vehicle that has more than enough towing capability (in case I upsize my trailer would like 5000 Ib capacity), decent gas mileage, handles well in snow, and I can drive/park it in the city.  Don’t want to go overboard on towing capacity at the expense of gas mileage, but also feel like driving a suboptimal towing vehicle is not safe (or enjoyable). Was leaning towards getting a truck (with shell), but then started to read about concerns of driving in the snow.  Anyone have any opinions on these vehicles?  How do you feel about the Ford Ranger eco boost engine?  It’s only a 4 cylinder, but boasts 310 Ibs/ft torque, and I actually felt like the truck handled pretty well.  Test drove a grand Cherokee, but have not heard good things about their engine and reliability. Price is a lot higher to achieve the same towing capacity, as a truck, but perhaps drives better in snow and the city.  Anyone have any good advice?  

Denny16

Between the two, the Jeep Chrysler Penstar V6 gas a much better reliability than the Ford Echo boost engine which develops cooling issues early on, due to undersized cooling ports in the engine, which become clogged, reducing coolant flow.  If towing a TaB 400, 5,000 lbs woukd be the minimum rating I would be looking at.  Something cluster to 6,000 and 600 lbs tongue weight would be better.

  A Grand Cherokee with factory tow package has about the same towing capability as my Jerp Gladiator Truck, but with a shorter wheelbase.  My Dodge Dakota also towed well, and handled snow quite well with just rear wheel, limited slip differential drive.  

 Chrysler uses the Penstar in quite a few vehicles, including the Pacific and Durango SUV, and in all its current Jeeps, and will be the engine in the new Dakota truck, coming out at the end of the year.  People do not complain about things that work right, just what does not work or live up to it’s expectations.  Ask some Mechanics about which engines are better and reliable.

cheers

DougH

@Sunny2WS @Denny16 ; The diesel Gladiator is alleged to get 29mpg highway (not towing) with 400+ ft-lbs of torque. Folks are putting in their dealer requests now with the latest available order guide that includes the diesel engine and what options have to go with it... even though Jeep doesn't have it in their web configurator until September. $4k more for the diesel engine. There is no max tow package for the diesel, but it allegedly comes with the 44 axles, but 3.73 gears, and the standard tow package has more cooling.  No word on the towing capacity and payload numbers yet, compared to a 2020 Gladiator.  But that will let you pull the 320 now and then later move up to 4500lbs later... with better torque and slightly better gas mileage towing.

@Denny16 ; I have no clue what any of that means, but as a Jeep person I figure you do.  Still hope to get one in first quarter 2021 as it should work better in higher altitudes, and the torque will be more than I have now, assuming the tow numbers aren't too much worse than the gasser. 

gtstoys

Sunny2WS,  I am new to this forum but have owned my 2008  Thor Dutchman since new.  I used to drive a 2000 Honda Odyssey until recently.  I now own a 2004 Toyota 4 Runner and use it to tow the T@B.  It has a V6 with decent gas mileage and can tow the T@B with no problem.  I also can carry quite a bit of extra stuff.  I would suggest the Toyota 4Runner.

BrianZ

Anyone ever considered this one with 5000 lb capacity and lots of cargo space?..
https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/traverse
Seems like it would be a good TV, except for price if you want all the "bells & whistles".

rcuomo

We are Honda fans with a 2017 Ridgeline RTL-E and recently a 2020 Pilot Elite, both with 5000# AWD capacity. Tows our 2018 320S like it wasn’t there. Mainly using the Ridgeline and I have seen over 20 mpg on level highways in the 62-65 mph range. Overall average 17.9 mpg. 

Denny16

@DougH, the standard Gladiator tow package gives an average 6,000 lbs tow capacity with 600 lbs tongue weight. Actual towing capacity varies from one truck to the next, depending on accessories installed.  I added the max tow package rear progressive springs and shocks to increase payload (which was around 1150 lbs), and keep the truck level with heavier tongue weights.  The 3.73 is the rear end gear ratio, the Max Tow is 4.10 which increases towing capacity with lower rear wind gearing at rhe expense of less mpg.  I opted for the standard tow package, and just added the springs and shocks from the Max Tow package, to keep the 3.73 ratio for better mileage.  A diesel with greater torque is not going to need the 4.10 gearing, and should be able to handle 6,000-7,000 lbs towing capacity, and depending on how much heavier the Diesel engine is vs the V6 Penstar, so your payload may be a little less.

Towing reduces mpg by around 20-percent, as rpms are higher to get the torque required.  For towing small trailers like the TaB 400 and down, a diesel is overkill.  The only unreal advantage would be better mpg, 29 vs 24mpg with V6 gas engine.  But getting the correct diesel fuel on the road, in rural areas is harder than finding good gas.  Also, maintenance down the road will be more on the diesel.

Sunny2WS

Rcuomo
I’m curious if there is a difference towing between the pilot and your Ridgeline?  I looked up the numbers on the pilot, Ridgeline, and passport, and they all have identical engines, specs, hp, and torque. All 3 on a unibody frame. I can’t tell the difference on paper between them. 

Slackers

Our 2019 Ranger extended cab handled our 2019 320 CS easily on our last trip. That one included a hilly twisty Appalachian foothill 20 mile section. A hitch tightener and Tekonsha brake controller made everything smooth. 

GatorEgg

First step should be type of vehicle.  SUV or truck.  I’m a truck person and can see benefits in a truck over SUV for RVing.  Things get dirty/muddy and stinky while camping.  I put them in the truck bed and not think too much about it.  I do have a topper on the truck.  Next would be brand reliability.  Online sources such as Consumer Reports, Edmunds, etc should help you there.  For the 320 family a midsize truck or SUV is fine.  Tacoma(my fav), Colorado or Ranger.  Most experts recommend rear wheel drive for towing so keep that in mind with SUVs.

CrabTab

Agree w/ @GatorEgg, I prefer the 'advantages' of a truck too. 

When we decided we'd get a new TV for our new T@B. My spouse was not happy with the thought of a full size truck and she does a least half of the driving on a road trip. We test drove the Tacoma and the Colorado (Ranger was not in showroom yet). I wanted to like the Toyota because it has better off road capabilities. The Chevy just had a better road ride to us (where we spend 99% of our time). It also seemed to have more driver's seat adjustability for our size differences, so that is what we purchased.  My spouse claimed it as her daily driver now. She says it is just as easy to park, etc. as the Subaru Forester she was previously driving.

As long as it will safely tow, get the one that makes you smile inside.

Denny16

Good choice, the Colorado is a much better TV than the Tacoma, which is more of an sport utility vehicle (which a truck body), with emphasis on sport than it is a truck.  I agree the Colorado is a much better drive/ride going down the highway

Congratulations.
cheers

Sunny2WS

Interesting, 
I was waiting to see if there were any supporters of the Colorado.  On paper, the numbers look pretty good.  Also surprised that no one is a fan of Ford for towing.  At some point, I became convinced that Honda could not possibly make a good towing vehicle, and that Ford has many years experience in towing so a Ford truck would be the best bet.  I had not heard from anyone driving the Colorado, even though it gets great reviews and the towing numbers look great.  I wanted to really like the Tacoma, but was underwhelmed on the test drive.  Plus, there seems to be a shortage of Tacomas (due to manufacturing delays) in my area.

pthomas745

There are many many threads that mention the Colorado.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=ALeKk03mkynq-Yx_W4s3bm-WO6V4uawmzg:1598059277737&ei=DXNAX9G6LNHU-gSi0KP4Ag&q=chevy+colorado+site:tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com&oq=chevy+colorado+site:tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoECAAQR1DgD1jBQWDFR2gAcAF4AIABZ4gBzg-SAQQyOS4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiR9dDc0q3rAhVRqp4KHSLoCC8Q4dUDCAs&uact=5

4ncar

I previously towed my 320s outback with a ‘grand Cherokee withe the ecodiesel.  For the size..it was a beast of a motor. 420 ft/lbs of torque. There was NEVER. an issue getting up any hill forward, at speed, or backing(up my driveway). 20 mpg towing, 37 mpg on the Hwy. both are averages.

I currently tow with a ‘16 Chevy Colorado  crew cab with the Mini Duramax. I get similar fuel economy. The torque is less(I believe 380), but I haven’t  been disappointed with the reduction.

The Colorado Diesel(LT) tow rating is 7000 lbs. not sure I’d want to test that! Lol. The exhaust brake feature is awesome! I can set cruise control, and on the down hill side, the exhaust brake will kick in rather then the wheel brakes to slow the rig down; works like a champ.

lastly...rarity of diesel fuel? That’s a new one for me. Even in the backhills of Wast Virginia, I can easily find diesel fuel. 40 octane, low sulfur is everywhere. Maintenance? DEF is easy & cheap. Oil changes are a bit more expensive, but I do those myself. Fuel filter change is next, I’ll let you know! Lol. There are MANY sensors in the exhaust system, not just the O2 sensor. On my Jeep, I had to replace several, and they were not easy to get to, which equals time, which equals $$$. I had over 150,000.00 miles on that truck, so, it was to be expected. 50,000 in on the Colorado, and all is well, other then a few warranty issues that have been resolved.

i am a big fan of diesel and they have not let me down...yet.

Denny16

The diesel fuel issue is with  engines like the Sprinter uses, they do not do well with Bio-Diesel mix (voids warranty) which is all you can get in some states.  Not sure this is an issue with ecodiesel being used by GMC or Chrysler.
cheers

4ncar

Denny16 said:

The diesel fuel issue is with  engines like the Sprinter uses, they do not do well with Bio-Diesel mix (voids warranty) which is all you can get in some states.  Not sure this is an issue with ecodiesel being used by GMC or Chrysler.
cheers

Sprinters use a Mercedes diesel, and like most “ modern” clean diesels, biodiesel is not recommended, with out modification, which usually means removal of the DEF system.

Edit: biodiesel, meaning 100%. GM, in the least has approved biodiesel blends up to 20% for the past 10 years or so...I would venture to guess that other Diesel engine manufacturers have approved up to 20% blends as well...

Denny16

Yes, I do believe you are correct, but Mercedes does not recommend any bio-diesel blends, except a small amount to get to a non bio-diesel source.  Glad to know GMC, and probably Chrysler allow up to a 20-percent blend.

Cheers

JabGopher

With your criteria and a leaning towards a truck, my inclination would be to go out and test drive 3 of the class leaders in the mid-size - Colorado, Ranger, and Tacoma.

If you stay away from the off-road-centric models (Colorado ZR2, TRD Pro for example), then it would come down to which engine and truck's ergonomics best fit you. The Tacoma for example is known (for better and worse) for it's low seating position. The Colorado is the only one with a trailer brake controller from the factory. I would also look at rear seat legroom if that's a concern, as well as bed height and how easily you could get things from the bed from the side of the truck.

Denny16

If you need 4x4, solid axles, and want to go first cabin you could add in the Jeep Gladiator Sport Max Tow or Sport S tow package, best rowing caparity in the mid size truck range. it’s back seat area is excellent, and also makes good storage area.  Unlike the other off road variants, it tows well on both highway and off road, where your trailer is the limiting factor.
It will soon be available with a diesel option also. 
cheers

ChrisFix

@4ncar
The mini duramax is a great towing engine for this class of trailer...all the torque you need for 99% of the hills you'll climb.
I was so torn between a Duramax Canyon/Colorado, and the Honda Ridgeline I ultimately purchased. As strangely different as those two sound, they both bring a lot to the table, just with different emphases.
My 2020 Ridgeline (5,000/600 lbs) has the 9 speed transmission allowing for paddle shifting and gear holding, which reduces/eliminates brake use down-grade (up to 7% grade in my use so far) - but at the cost of high RPMs and the noise associated with high RPMs - although the Ridgeline is a very quiet cabin overall.
Almost like exhaust braking!  ...and gear holding works great in combination with cruise control for climbing grades.

I'd love the combination of the Ridgeline's user friendliness (4 wheel independent suspension, in-bed trunk, dual swing tailgate, huge rear-seat storage...) and a diesel engine option like the Duramax!

All that said, the Canyon/Colorado midsize diesel trucks are a great tow vehicle for campers in the T@B 400 size - and with very nice ride for a truck with a frame and solid rear axles. The Canyon/Colorado V6 trucks offer lots of models to suit lots of buyers, and the V6 is more than adequate for the T@B 400, but with the same high RPM characteristics of every V6 in this class.
I can't wait to see what they finally deliver with the next gen replacement. I believe the rear seat room and utility could be improved a lot, so here's hoping!
And the 2020 Honda Ridgeline in my experience has proven to be a fantastic tow vehicle for the T@B 400. I've now towed over 3,500 miles with it, mostly in the Blue Ridge mountains, and it has been a perfect partner so far. More than enough truck for the 400.

Slackers

We looked at a gently used Colorado for towing our 320, but the 6 cylinder revealed it's transmission issues in our test drive.   Later drove a new 2019 Colorado also a 6 cylinder that shifted slightly rough in the same way as the used one.  We ultimately purchased a new 2019 Ranger (non 4x4).  It tows our 320 CS-S easily.

Sunny2WS

Yes!  A Honda Ridgeline with a Diesel engine would be great!
I am leaning towards a Colorado now. Have test driven the Tacoma, Ranger, And Colorado. I have been a Honda owner for many years, and never owned a truck. But feel like although the pilot has done a great job for 10 years, it seems to rev up to high rpms 4000-5000 on hills that feels stressful and unhealthy on the car. I really liked the Colorado - tested a z71 V6. It feels very comfy to me and I like the way it drives much better than the Tacoma. No Duramax models available near me though. Maybe will hold out til next year’s diesel comes available?  I liked the way the Ranger drove, but was scared off by reports of engine cooling issues. 

Slackers

The used Colorado we test drove definitely exhibited these issues.
https://thelemonfirm.com/2020/01/30/transmission-defects-in-gmc-canyon-and-chevrolet-colorado/

4ncar

SlackerBill said:

The used Colorado we test drove definitely exhibited these issues.
https://thelemonfirm.com/2020/01/30/transmission-defects-in-gmc-canyon-and-chevrolet-colorado/

Yes, unfortunately, Chevrolet has taken a hit on both the 6 & 8 speed trans.  They have been put into everything they build, including the caddy’s and the corvettes.  My buddy has an 8 speed v6; his fix was the trans fluid swap. My 6 speed fix was essentially a complete rebuild. Both repairs were under warranty. I am 20,000 miles into my fix with out further issue. I have 50,000 more miles of warranty remaining; let’s hope no further work is required.

every manufacturer has there day...it’s what they do about it and GM has been good, imho.

ChrisFix

@Sunny2WS
The engine plant (in Thailand) that manufactures the 'baby Duramax' for the Canyon/Colorado was sold by GM and the rumour mill is that it may mark the end of a diesel option in the future - but that is just internet chatter at this point as far as I know. 
They are a rare beast on dealer lots in NC, that much I know. Laura GMC in St. Louis (https://www.laurabuickgmc.com/) used to carry a good diesel inventory, but it is currently all V6 models.

4ncar

ChrisFix said:

@Sunny2WS
The engine plant (in Thailand) that manufactures the 'baby Duramax' for the Canyon/Colorado was sold by GM and the rumour mill is that it may mark the end of a diesel option in the future - but that is just internet chatter at this point as far as I know. 
They are a rare beast on dealer lots in NC, that much I know. Laura GMC in St. Louis (https://www.laurabuickgmc.com/) used to carry a good diesel inventory, but it is currently all V6 models.

VM Motori is the mfg of both the 4 cyl. Miniduramax AND the Chrysler v6 ecodiesel.  The company has been around for year, and is currently a wholly owned subsidiary of fiat Chrysler.  They supply engines to just about every auto mfg in Europe & Asia.

the closing of the Thailand plant effects the euro/Asian markets ; Colorado’s are built in Missouri, to support North America.

ChrisFix

4ncar said:

ChrisFix said:

@Sunny2WS
The engine plant (in Thailand) that manufactures the 'baby Duramax' for the Canyon/Colorado was sold by GM and the rumour mill is that it may mark the end of a diesel option in the future - but that is just internet chatter at this point as far as I know. 
They are a rare beast on dealer lots in NC, that much I know. Laura GMC in St. Louis (https://www.laurabuickgmc.com/) used to carry a good diesel inventory, but it is currently all V6 models.

VM Motori is the mfg of both the 4 cyl. Miniduramax AND the Chrysler v6 ecodiesel.  The company has been around for year, and is currently a wholly owned subsidiary of fiat Chrysler.  They supply engines to just about every auto mfg in Europe & Asia.

the closing of the Thailand plant effects the euro/Asian markets ; Colorado’s are built in Missouri, to support North America.

Not so.

All GM 2.8L 'mini Duramax' engines come from the one plant that makes them in Thailand.
Yes, the Canyon/Colorado is assembled in MO, but the diesel comes from Thailand and is a revised version of the VM Motori design.

The 2.8L diesel was an Italian VM Motori engine, introduced when the company was jointly owned by Fiat and GM.

It’s also used on FCA vehicles.

Duramax is a joint venture of GM and Isuzu.
The current 2.8L has a new cylinder head and a re-toleranced crankcase.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/08/gm-thailand-builds-500000th-duramax-four-cylinder-engine/

CrabTab

SlackerBill said:

The used Colorado we test drove definitely exhibited these issues.
https://thelemonfirm.com/2020/01/30/transmission-defects-in-gmc-canyon-and-chevrolet-colorado/

The link mentions issues in model years 2015-2017. Honestly, I believe it would be very hard to find ANY vehicle to drive if you discount every model/manufacturer that has ever had past issues somewhere along the line. Vehicles are complex.

With over 10,000 miles of towing our 320 with a V6, 2019 Chevy Colorado we have had no issues and are pleased with the performance. We have been from sea level in Virginia to Idaho to Arizona and back. We've also towed up and down the East Coast with this combo.

Nothing wrong with a Ford either @SlackerBill, my 1997 F-350 is still a daily driver.

4ncar

@ChrisFix yes assembled, of course. There is little to no additional info that I can find relating to the ceasing of production of the R428 engine, though here is a list of VM Motori production engines, and who & how they are licensed too.  I would be very interested to know that the motor will cease to be produced, if you could please cite a reference. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VM_Motori_engines#R_428_DOHC

ChrisFix

@4ncar
I never said the engine was going to cease production - I said GM sold the plant that makes it, which they did - and the internet was abuzz with whether or not GM would continue to source and offer that engine.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/04/chevrolet-colorado-diesel-is-in-danger-of-disappearing/

But I did also find a later article saying that GM has plans to continue to source the 2.8 Duramax (probably from Great Wall who now owns the manufacturing plant), but it won't be available until late in the 2021 model year production for Canyon/Colorado.
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/05/gm-will-have-continued-supply-of-2-8l-duramax-diesel-engines-despite-rayong-plant-sale/