which inverter

Tundra57

I am planning up upgrade my inverter to 2500watts. I have Victron solar controllers and a BMV. For batteries I have 4 golf cart AGM's 12v at 440 Ah. I want a transfer switch built in so i can use anything wired to the fuse board. They both have good chargers too.

For longevity Magnum and Victron seem best for pure sinewave.

Victron will integrate well with the other Victron stuff. Anyone got experience with either?

Magnum are very time proven and rhobust. Victron are a more recent addition.

(Corrected spelling from Vicron to Victron for search purposes.)

Denny16

Most inverters for marine and RV use are available as 1200, 2000 and 3000 watt units, only 2500 I could find was Victron inverter/charger combo units, most of which are designed for residential and commercial Solar applications, and would be too large for a TaB install.

I am also looking to upgrade the inverter on our TaB400, and was looking at the victron phoenix inverter 12/2000, or the Renogy 2000 12V inverter, both are pure sine wave units, the next larger inverter in both series is 3000 watts. 

 It takes a 100 amps of available battery (not max) per each 1000 watts of inverter power, so you have 220 amps available with the two pairs of 6-volt batteries, so 440 amps total, of which you can only use 220 amps, which will  will support 2000 watts, but not 3000 watts, (which would take 300 amps of available power, or a 600 amp AGM). Most of these larger inverters are designed to work with lithium battery systems, where you can use 200-400 amps of battery, and have the required DC power available at a reasonable size and weight.

Personally, I would recommend going with 2000 watts max, which will work with your current battery setup.  Going to an inverter/charger is going to triple the size and weight of the inverter and more than double the cost.
cheers

DougH

The Giandel 2200W / 4400W on Amazon is pretty good for $330.  Clean output.  One blew up on me for some reason, and the company rushed another one out to me in a few days... no questions asked.

But NO automatic transfer switch built in, so you'd need to spend another $100 on a Progressive Dynamics switch to connect shore power and inverter output into, to head into the WFCO AC input connection.  Since you're still on AGM and not Lithium, it might not be time yet for a single integrated inverter / charger / switch / fuse panel box.  That said, the Giandel includes a PWM solar charger.  Not sure why.  If someone has a need for a 2200W inverter, they are likely to have an upscale MPPT charger like the Victron already.

Tundra57

@Denny16 what is your reason for saying i only have 200Amps? I dont know a lot about inverters on battery so im curious.

Also i don't intend to use 3000watts, but it seems most inverter failures are on surge. 2000 running is plenty. I would only get an hour runtime running 2000watts.

Denny16

Sorry, I didn’t finish the sentence, you have 220 amps total per pair of batteries, or 440 amps total power available?  If so with AGMs you should only draw down the battery to 50 to 60%, which gives you 220-250 amps of power to actually use.

Yes at 2000 watts you would get a little over one hour of use.  Most new 2000 watt pure sine wave inverters I referenced have a continuous rating at 2000 watts, with a higher surge rating, so if you do not need more than 2000 watts, a 2K inverter is all you need.  That said, most inverters like to run at a 80-90% of max load, so 2K will give you 1700-1800 watts, which is enough to run a small microwave, the biggest load I can see using in a TaB trailer.
cheers

DougH

Denny16

OK, you trumped me with this one Doug.  Nice looking setup.  If we ever end up in a camp area together, espresso is on you! 

I have a small stainless steel version of the classic Italian stove top espresso maker, that will actually froth milk with its steam wand.  Works on the TaB stove, no electrons needed.  
cheers

rh5555

There is a confusion here between the capacity of the battery, measured in Amp-hours (Ah) and the ability of a battery to provide current, measured in Amps (A).  200 Ah AGM batteries can deliver way more current than 100A, they just cannot do it for very long.  As an example, looking at Trojan's Motive batteries, the 200Ah flavor can deliver 1400A.  The term to look for is the "Cranking Amps", that is the maximum current the battery can deliver.  In reality you'd not want to go close to this, but running a 3000W inverter on a 200Ah bank is entirely doable.  What you have to remember is that cannot do it for an extended period of time.  Running a microwave for 10 minutes would be fine, running a air conditioner for hours would kill your battery.  @Tundra57, Keep an eye on your BMV and you'll be fine with your proposed setup!  I cannot offer information on good inverters - I just have the stock AIMS unit.

Denny16

@rh5555, I know the difference, I was referring to the total amp capacity of the battery and the amount I’d amps available.  According to Renogy and Victron, they recommend having 100 amps of battery capacity per 1,000 watts of inverter power, and that was for using lithium batteries, so 200 amps for 2K or 300 amps for 3K inverter, but to get that from a non lithium AGM battery you need at least 50% to twice that rating. 

 Sure, a 440 amp AGM setup is going to run a 3K inverter, but you would only need that much capacity for an air conditioner, the OP’s espresso machine is going to work with 2K inverter just fine.  My experience has been to match the inverter to the required load with 20% more capacity on the inverter than the biggest required load.  This gets maximum efficiency of energy conversion with minimum loss.  Putting a 1K load on a 3K inverter is going to waste DC battery running the lager inverter for a small load.  

I think for a TaB400 for normal use, a 2000 watt inverter is the sweet spot for running a larger appliance like a microwave or the fancy espresso machine (which might work with a smaller inverter?).  A 2K is not going to drain down the battery too quickly, and will give power to run 1000 to 1800 watt appliances.  

That said, anyone wanting to upgrade their inverter/battery systems, are free to do so, and use the equipment they think is best for them.  I am only making recommendations, and/or ideas to consider.

Cheers

rh5555

I agree that a 2000W inverter is the sweet spot.  It is a little frustrating that the stock inverter is only 1200W - not quite enough to run the microwave, which would have been excellent.  I'm still on the (occasional) hunt for an 2000W inverter that will fit in the space that the AIMS unit currently occupies.

N7SHG_Ham

The one I have my eye on is a Victron Multiplus in 2000w size. Charging,  transfer switch and load sharing if on limited shore power.

Denny16

That is an inverter/charger system designed for a larger RV or vessel.   It has 50 amp connection to the mains, and seems a bit of overkill for a TaB.  You already have a AC/DC converter/charger, why add another one?

 We were discussing smaller inverter only units, that do not charge your batteries.  

Cheers 

rh5555

Has anyone looked at this AIMS unit?  It is the big brother to the stock TAB unit.

Denny16

Yes, AIMS is nice, but the 1800 watt unit I have only kicks out 1200-1400 watts, and will not run a microwave, so staying away from AIMS and they seem to be rated higher than actual output.
cheers

rh5555

I don't see an 1800W model on the AIMS website, was it discontinued or downgraded to 1500W nominal? 

N7SHG_Ham

@Denny16 long term is a LiFePo4 upgrade and I will let the Multiplus take over charging since it has custom charging settings. One very interesting feature is ability to load share with limited shore or generator power. It is a Swiss army knife of features all in a single fairly compact enclosure. https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Multiplus-inverter-charger_2kVA-and-3kVA-120V-US-EN.pdf

Victron does have inverter ONLY products too: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Phoenix-Inverter-1200VA-5000VA-EN.pdf

Denny16

rh5555 said:

I don't see an 1800W model on the AIMS website, was it discontinued or downgraded to 1500W 

Denny said:
What is labeled a 1800 watt unit is actually the 1200/2400 AIMS installed by nüCamp in 2018, according to the paperwork I found.  I think it is a miss-labeled 1200 watt inverter (or I am not reading the label correctly) it measures out to the same physical size as the AIMS Pure Sine Wave 1200 watt unit also.  The manual states the continuous output for the 1200 is 1200 watts.  The AC current requirement for a 700 watt microwave is 1050 watts.
cheers

Tundra57

All great stuff.  @rh5555 I also was confused with @Denny16 seemingly interchanging current and Ah. I know golf cart batteries can provide more current than 200A.

I do have the right to decide what i run with the setup lol. Dont get me started about only discharging AGM'S to 50%. You can discharge them to 100% if you like, as long as you get them charged up asap. All it does is reduce the battery life. That 100% is the minimum allowed terminal voltage for that battery not 0v. Same as Lithium, just down to minimum allowed voltage.

Lugging around all that battery power im going to use it.

The inverters i see that are cheaper have much less surge capacity to deal with motor startup than the more expensive ones like Magnum. So my thinking is to take this into account when chosing one. The Victron units with bluetooth will talk to my solar and bmv and have good surge, but are expensive. So i was aiming for a larger watt unit so it would be more reliable. The downside is the larger the unit the more idle current it takes which is wasting battery power.

I was hoping some of you experimenters out there had tried out inverters in reality, particularly some cheaper models.

I noticed also that some do not have a zero referenced neutral. This, i think is highly dangerous. This fact does not seem to be well advertised in the spec.

So I still have not found a good test subject. Thanks for all the input.

DougH

@Tundra57 Wish we could be more help, and I know I'd love to hear your experience if you do go with the Victron. My Amazon purchase history from the last 6 years in two campers and the house includes the following inverters... three of which are no longer with us (I need to work on my sustainability).

• GoWISE 3000W surge 6000W
• PowerTechOn 2000W / 4000W peak
• Autown 2000W
• Giandel 2200W surge 4400W
• NovoPal 1500W / 3000W peak
• Giandel 300W

So far I like the Giandel 2200/4400 pure sine wave best. Never a glitch on running air conditioners, coffee makers, charging delicate electronics, and it doesn't seem to eat through the batteries as fast when I don't need 3000W continuous. Only downside is when I turn off the remote inverter switch it turns off the inverter AND its fans.  If an inverter is 130F from powering a big load, I'd rather it steal some extra juice and run the fans until it gets below 100F or at least ambient like the Novopal brand inverter lineup does.  But on the Giandel I just remember to turn off all the AC loads first, wait five minutes, then turn off the inverter.  Its internal fans have always stopped by then anyway.

And I've used up 60% of the battery bank more than once, and several years and dozens of camping trips later the batteries are still going strong (375Ah of SLR125s).  Which is pretty good given the Texas heat.  Too many alleged consumer bulletins state RV AGMs should only be discharged 20-40%. Appropriate bank sizing to deal with Peukert for anticipated current, and immediate recharging policies for significantly discharged banks seems to be one of life's unknowable mysteries.

My rat's nest.  Giandel is fused on all lines, physical shock/vibration mounted an inch above the floor, and the inverter exhaust heat goes into a hole in the camper floor with a fan that automatically turns on at 83.5F.

Denny16

All good comments.  This is the inverter I am looking at, which is just a little thicker than the  factory 1200 watt pure sine wave inverter, should fit in the same footprint area:
https://www.renogy.com/2000w-12v-pure-sine-wave-inverter/

It does draw 2A with out ant list, and has a 4000 watt surge rating.  Renogy also has a newer version of this out, but is out of stock: https://www.renogy.com/2000w-12v-pure-sine-wave-inverter-new-edition/

Also considering the Victron, Phoenix Compact 2000VA — A Compact is a pure sine wave inverter with a high efficiency.  The advantage of this one, is its connectivity to the existing Victron monitor and solar charger regulator.  The problem is I can only find the 1200VA/12VDC/120VAC versions for sale.  The Battery charger version is available, but it is larger and more expensive.
cheers

N7SHG_Ham

Certainly are less expensive Inverters than the top if the line. The waveform and RF hash on some inexpensive ones is not ideal. For work I used to use lower end 300w ones for laptop charging, camera battery charging, etc. In my work truck. Very noisy RF hash on other devices. So I got a very nice Samlex 150w inverter that is physically about twice the size of the cheap 300w ones, RF hash is gone and it laster a number of years now.

I think with inverters you do get what you pay for. Professional installers use Samlex, Victron, Xantrex, Magnum, etc. You don't see any unheard of inexpensive inverters being used, guessing there is good reason for that, not the least of is replacement when they die an early death.

Maxcamp

A lot of great info here.  Sorry to be overly simplistic but we are new TAB 320S boondock owners and still trying to figure out what we bought given the limited documentation.   

I need to run a  Sunbeam 120v 50 watt (seems too low a figure) heating pad for arthritis much of the night.  After calling NuCamp I was very surprised to learn that NONE of the 120 volt outlets run or have an inverter from battery power.
We just substituted two battleborn 12v batteries and are going to upgrade the central control to one with the LI designation to get the full charge and balancing of the batteries off shore power.  The solar that came with the trailer remains.  

Do I just plug in a $50 cigarette plug inverter to run this small load off our batteries for hours, or is there something else we need or a better method we should be looking at?  Thanks.

NuCamp T&B 320S Boondock, mfg. Jan. 2021.  / Tacoma 4 cylinder tow in (sigh) lower gears.

Maxcamp

What we'd really like is to be able to run the A/C off the batteries in a pinch, for medical need.  What would that require?

Denny16

To get max efficiency, you want toe in an inverter at around 80% of its load, so a small portable 100 watt inverter should power your heating pad, and they have a direct connect 120VSC outlet in the unit, and a cable that connects to the 12VDC cigarette lighter looking plug on the TaB.

Running a AC is best done on a inverter type generator, in the 2200-3000 watt range.  Trying to run a AC off an Inverter and batteries in a TaB320 I do not think would be practical, given the amount of battery amps you would need to run a large 2200-3000 Watt inverter for any length of time.  

cheers

Marceline

@Maxcamp8
I know that this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but I keep an old school hot water bottle in my trailer and it holds heat for a surprising long time. There are also 12v electric blankets and heating pads. 

Denny16

That Marceline is an excellent suggestion.  I have Degenerative Joint Disease in my hands, and use a cold pack when it gets too bad.  But I like yiur hot water bottle solution for when you need a nice warming heat.
 Cheers 

pthomas745

I use small inverters in the manner that Denny16 mentions.  Laptops, battery chargers, etc.  You have (it seems) about 180 amp hours to use with your 2 lithiums, and your 50 watt heating pad will use only about 4 or 5 amps maximum.  Most likely, it will use less as it cycles on and off to hold the heat.  If it has different heat settings, it might use even less.  So, power won't be an issue.

What might be an issue is the newer controllers that are used in these types of "heated" pads and blankets. Instead of being on a "duty cycle" (turning on and off) they pulse continuously to maintain the temperature.  When I checked my "warming blanket" with a Kill-a-Watt measuring device, the wattage changed between several values constantly.  When I tried the blanket in my trailer with each of my inverters (one a pure sine wave) they could not handle this, and shut down. 

I have a nice heating pad that must be like your Sunbeam.  I'll try again tomorrow and see if I can make either the blanket or the pad work.  In the interest of science, of course.

Dutch061

Not trying to be picky but with 200 Ah of Battleborn you have 200 Ah available to use. 100% of Ah capacity is available.

I have been down to 13% SOC and drawing 85 amps while still maintaining 12.28 volts. The Peukert effect of AGM and Lead Acid Batteries will prevent you from being able to do this. The "low voltage alarm" will shut down the inverter. 



Brad

Denny16

Yes Brad, the advantage of lithium over the other two choices.  That said, from my understanding, if you take a lithium all the way down, you need to immediately recharge it back (part way in any case), this is why many lithium powered devices, only take a lithium battery down to around 85%, to have some reserve for the BMS, and recharging when available.
 Cheers 

Dutch061

Actually with Battleborn, they can be drawn to 0% as per their setup instructions for a BMV-712. Battleborn do not need to have 15% held in reserve for the "BMS". If you draw them down below 10 Volts, the BMS will prevent further current flow. You will need to apply an external 12 volt source (think battery and jumper cables) to turn the BMS back on to allow charging. In any case, this will not hurt or shorten the life of a BB.

Which is another benefit, if you have X Ah of Battleborn Lithium, you can use 100% of what you have. I believe in the testing done by Will Prowse, the actual Ah output of the 100 Ah Battleborn is closer to 109 Ah. I would have to go back and find the video where he tested them. 

In addition, it is not nearly as important to get Lithium recharged if you draw them way down VS AGM or LA batteries. Battleborn does recommend that the SOC be 50% or higher for storage and to disconnect any charging devices or load. 

Again, I am not able to speak to any other brand of Lithium batteries. Check with the manufacturer.  

ALL Lithium batteries have (cell phones, laptops, etc.) have a level of protection built in to prevent discharging them below a "safe level". In those types of devices, if the voltage were to go below that level it becomes impossible to charge them. Which is completely different from the BMS used in Battleborn batteries.

Brad

Denny16

Nice to know Brad, yet another advantage to Battleborn batteries.
cheers