Where did all the Glycol go? and...adding glycol to my 2019 400, Any easy solutions?

Markitect

First things first, We were out this weekend after 2 months since our last outing. We used the heater then, I went to check the Glycol level and the filler tank is empty!
Is this normal? I could find nowhere where it leaked...

So looking further into adding glycol and I find the access screws are blocked by the screen for the porthole! These are not the keyhole slots, this is just screwed in!, (thanks NuCamp!). (Even then, I would need suggestions on how to get the tank filled through the inner porthole)

Any suggestions on where my glycol went, and:
Any suggestions on how to access the tank, short of removing the screen, (if that's needed, info on that task would be helpful).
(am I removing the inner panel which acts as the back to the dinette seat?

Thank you all in advance, you've never let me down before!

M

Denny16

You can get a long shaft driver bit to bit the screws and get them out without removing the shade frame, the screws are set at a slight angle.  Once you get them out and the panel off, consider using magnetic cabinet latches to hold,it back in place.  The glycol went into the Alde heater registers, prob was not topped off after initial setup by the dealer.  Just to be sure, when you get the front cover panel off, make sure their isn’t a leak or loose hose connection to the expansion tank.
cheere

ChrisFix

@Markitect
On the 2021 model, it is secured via keyholes that slide over the screws.
Can't say I know why you don't have that.
The shade can be removed fairly easily. Take off the corner clips, and the securing screws will be exposed. I believe the whole shade assembly can just be removed in tact doing this.
But it does seem like you shouldn't have to do this for a maintenance item.

Verna

I always pour some glycol in a soft drink plastic bottle, and then I use a long neck funnel to pour the glycol into the reservoir. Don’t try to pour from the gallon jug as you will spill it all over. (Be sure to only use the funnel and bottle only for the glycol.)

The glycol is available on Amazon at a reasonable price. Do not dilute the contents, use the glycol full strength.  This is the same brand that the factory uses, as you should not mix different kinds of glycol. 

https://smile.amazon.com/Century-Chemical-TF-1-Transfer-Fluid/dp/B01BDWQXM2/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Century+glycol&qid=1602474371&sr=8-2

Michigan_Mike

I have a 2019 T@B 400 and experienced the same thing out in New Mexico (after having stored my trailer) as the glycol level had dropped and I wasn’t getting any heat.  Since Glycol doesn’t evaporate my guess is that it was a premix with water and the water evaporated.  My reservoir is in the closet and when I tried removing the plastic cover that conceals the hoses and wiring behind it, the cover couldn’t easily be removed as it was hitting on a wood panel above it.  I ended up using painters tape on the thin wood panel and carefully cut off about 4” off the wood panel and am now able to remove the plastic cover without any resistance therein.  

I looked for evidence of a leak too and have found nothing.  I believe that water added in to the glycol is the culprit and would highly recommend that you take a small plastic water bottle filled with glycol just in case you need to top the expansion tank off as marked on the tank.  Use a sharpie to highlight the line levels that are built into the tank to make viewing easier too.  

DougH

@Markitect I lose around one turkey baster's worth of glycol mixture every year.  On my 2017 320 (build date Sept '16) the Max Fill line is fairly low in the tank, so at first glance it can seem like it's all gone.  Every year around this time (just did it again last week) I add enough of the stuff Verna mentioned to get to the line, and after a test cycle and cool down then use a refractometer and pH strip to check concentration and acidity.  But ignore me, since I haven't even bothered to do a partial drain and refill yet on the heat transfer fluid, since I'm assuming if it is still liquid, still shows protection down to -20F, and is above pH of 7 the stuff will work (below 6.5 and you'll start eating the innards).

In car engines, some coolant mixtures have surfactant additives to keep boiling voids down, and in large scale hydronic systems additional anti-corrosion additives are frequently used, but I'm guessing, and only guessing, there's not a bunch of evaporating specialty additives in the Century HTF.  The Alde documents on their site only indicate they use PG as the antifreeze and corrosion inhibitor, and recommend a complete flush and refill every two years.  But my repeated good refractometer readings lead me to believe I'm not losing a higher percentage of PG versus water on any given year since the readings are staying pretty consistent.

And my Alde wasn't at the proper level when I first got it (way too full), so if you checked it last season and it was right at the line, and this year there's none in the tank at all, even after you run it for ten minutes, you may want to check around for coolant leaks.

Markitect

Denny16 said:

You can get a long shaft driver bit to bit the screws and get them out without removing the shade frame, the screws are set at a slight angle.  Once you get them out and the panel off, consider using magnetic cabinet latches to hold,it back in place.  The glycol went into the Alde heater registers, prob was not topped off after initial setup by the dealer.  Just to be sure, when you get the front cover panel off, make sure their isn’t a leak or loose hose connection to the expansion tank.
cheere

@ Denny16, unfortunately, they are not set at an angle and looking at the tightness of the area, I'm thinking it may be easier to access the tank by removing the inside panel to the whole area- Thoughts?

Denny16

If you can not get on it with a long driver at a slight angle (I would try this first, even if the screws are set straight on) then remove the widow shade frame assembly, only four screws at the corners. 

 Then use the cabinet latch to reinstall the access panel instead of the screws.
cheers

Tabulating

Where did all your glycol go?

Possibly out the automatic air bleeder valve and on to the ground.  We lost a bunch that way.

It is brass fitting that is installed near the top of the Alde heater.  Ours became fouled and we were losing Glycol through the air bleed line.

Some have been able to limit or stop the loss by turning the pumps to a lower setting.  Ours was leaking at all settings.

In the short-term I was able to stop the flow by simply putting a clamp on the bleed line. It actually fixed it so well I would have been OK just leaving the clamp on. However, I had already bought a new bleed valve and I installed that this summer when I was doing some mods to my heating system for which I had to completely drain the system.

I think at the rate you are losing glycol, it is probably not evaporation.

Bill

pthomas745

@Tabulating , what year trailer?

Tabulating

2018

Markitect

@Tabulating
Thanks Bill,

I have the cover off and am removing the seat/panels/what all to trace the hoses before I just fill it up. It seems that it is empty, there is no weight feel in the hoses, so I will see. 
I agree that it no way could be evaporation, not in 2 months. 
I have not found any residue of a leak so far so your idea of the bleeder being the culprit seems like something.

I am planning on filling it and turning it on and seeing how it performs while looking for any sign of leakage...

Markitect

By the way, Does anyone know how much glycol does the 400's system take?

rhyno

@Markitect - do you have any pics or tips to share with getting access by removing the seating area panels? 

Sharon_is_SAM

@Markitect - here is a previous comment:

Sharon_is_SAM Moderator Posts: 6,287

 November 2018 edited November 2018 IPv6

Edited to include TaB 400 info.

Per Creed at nuCamp:

Q:  When doing an Alde glycol exchange, how much volume is required to fill the system? 

A:  You will need about 3.5 - 4 Gallons for the Tab 320 and 4 gallons for the TaB 400.

 Q:  Will the system drain completely via gravity?  Is a device required for draining/filling/both? 

A:  The fluid will drain once you remove the Low Point Alde drain plug - it will have a red plug and an Alde hose clamp holding the plug in place.

Sharon / 2017 T@B CSS / 2015 Toyota Sienna Minivan / Westlake, Ohio

Markitect

rhyno said:

@Markitect - do you have any pics or tips to share with getting access by removing the seating area panels? 

I ended up removing the screen over the porthole to get to the screws which hold the panel in front of the expansion tank. (I will be key-holing the panel so I will be able to just slip it off next time). The other panels/ seats are held in with minimal screws and easy to remove. There are some hoses that cannot be tracked or accessed, I am assuming there are no joints in these locations...
I will post pictures of the open spaces soon.

Tabulating

When I drained my Alde on my 400 last summer, all of the fluid did not come out when I unplugged the low point drain, even after I both raised and lowered the jack to its limits.

A bunch did, but there was a lot left. 

(I found this out when I undid a hose clamp in the heater compartment. I put the clamp back on and thought.)

To get it out, I undid the two hoses that lead to the reservoir tank.

I put my thumb over one and blew in the other.  I alternated back and forth for a bit.  I got an extra .5 to .75 gallons out by doing this.

That is easy in a 2018 because the tank is in the closet.

When I undid the same fitting as before doing after this; there was a tiny dribble that spilled onto the paper towel I had put down.

A half gallon of fluid would make quiet a mess under the bed and I don't really like the smell of radiator fluid.

Tabulating

Oh, I forget something. Even after blowing down the tubes, I could still hear gurgling.

So when I when to undo the first fitting I had my shop vac running.  I cracked the fitting open just a bit and let the vac suck out any remaining fluid. There was enough left to make a mess for sure.

(I just checked my pix and realized I had forgot this. The mind slides as we age.)

Markitect

Tabulating said:

Where did all your glycol go?

Possibly out the automatic air bleeder valve and on to the ground.  We lost a bunch that way.

It is brass fitting that is installed near the top of the Alde heater.  Ours became fouled and we were losing Glycol through the air bleed line.

Some have been able to limit or stop the loss by turning the pumps to a lower setting.  Ours was leaking at all settings.

In the short-term I was able to stop the flow by simply putting a clamp on the bleed line. It actually fixed it so well I would have been OK just leaving the clamp on. However, I had already bought a new bleed valve and I installed that this summer when I was doing some mods to my heating system for which I had to completely drain the system.

I think at the rate you are losing glycol, it is probably not evaporation.

Bill

Bill, This is where ours is going, I kinked the line to stop the loss, but will probably need to fix it. I am not looking forward to draining the system, any ideas of how I can replace the bleeder without this? I can just imagine all the glycol gushing out!

Thanks!

atlasb

atlasb