Keeping the Anti-Freeze from freezing...?

BridgerSunset

As discussed often on this forum, the Alde system requires Century TF-1 fluid, and at the normal 50-50 mix it is good down to minus 20-25 deg. F.,  Noted also that the Alde Operating manual states not to go stronger than this 50% mix.   So, if the T@B is stored outside and/or unable to be heated, it would be nip & tuck right now in Montana, as we have those kinds of temperatures for the next 4-5 days.   I'll check with Alde, but am curious if any of our northern friends have addressed this, maybe by cheating a little on the blend?

dlb

Have you thought of plugging it in and heating it, or does the location prohibit that?

N7SHG_Ham

My guess is even at the -25, it is more like slush, not frozen solid. I would ask Alde that question.

mntrails

I'll be curious to hear what Alde tells you too.  Our T@B is stored in NW Wisconsin and night time lows for the next few days are in the -20s F.  I suspect that part of the answer is that the alde unit, pipes and resevoir don't really get down to that temperature unless it stays there for an extended number of days, i.e. it takes time to cool the whole mass of the trailer, etc down and before you ever get there, the sun comes up and there's some radiational heating plus slightly warmer temps that helps out.

pthomas745

Somebody on FB today wondered if the Century Glycol used in our Aldes would be good to use for winterizing the trailer.    In a real pinch, it could, it would just be "pouring money down the drain", it seems to me. I know that  antifreeze mixes of antifreeze and water will turn slushy at severe low temps, because of the water.  These fluids are rated for "burst protection", which means they will try to stop the mixture from turning to slush, which could then lead to expansion and bursting pipes.  I found this on a "glycol review" site.  Says our Century TF-1 offers "freeze protection" to -48.

Aqua Hot is a boiler in other trailer brands, and they have an extensive discussion about propylene glycol types on their FAQ page.  Apparently, the Aqua Hot boilers have a much wider range of "acceptable" glycol products.

If you can wade through this, down the page is a section on "Level Of Freeze Protection" you require, and a puzzling graphic.  It would seem at our 60 percent distilled water and 40 percent glycol, the Alde is protected down to -50. 

We really need some chemical engineers to buy Tabs.

http://www.aquahot.com/faqs.aspx#mixturelevel

ChanW

Freeze protection vs burst protection... Two different numbers.

Freeze temp is where it turns to slush - still safe, just don't try to run the Alde!

Burst temp is where it freezes solid and expands...

Look here: 
https://www.dynalene.com/news/2015/10/whats-your-point-freeze-point-or-burst-point/#:~:text=By definition, freeze point is,other parts of the equipment.

pthomas745

@ChanW Thanks, at least that graphic is readable and "understandable."

So:  the Alde uses the Century Glycol at a ratio of 40 percent Glycol to 60 percent.  This is what the Alde FAQ says:

"If you are using concentrated glycol, the mixture should consist of 60% distilled water and 40% glycol. If the heating system will be exposed to temperatures below -15 °F (-25 °C), the glycol content must be increased but not to more than 50%."

Sharon_is_SAM

@BridgerSunset

This is the label on the pre-mixed (already diluted to 40% glycol) Century Transfer Fluid.  Haze point (first ice crystals observed) -34 F.  Cloud point (fluid became paste/slush) -48 F.  Freeze Solid -100 F.  So, according to this, no worries until below - 34 F.  

The Alde website and the Alde manual notes that if you are not using the pre-mixed glycol , but you are using the “concentrated” form of the glycol, then it should be diluted to 40% unless exposed to temperatures below -15 F.  Under -15 F, it should be mixed to a 50% dilution.  So, their recommendation is very conservative relative to the Century labeling.  

BridgerSunset

Hopefully Truma will get back to me soon on this, as there are too many confusing numbers right now.  I'll let the group know if so.
Thanks for comments all.

BridgerSunset

Truma's response was quick regarding our glycol mix -vs- freeze protection question.  And is shown in the chart below.
Appears to me that a 50% solution mostly is fine;  but anything less could be suspect in harsh temperatures.

ChanW

Well, it's interesting that they say a hydrometer will test your glycol....

My understanding is that the recommended glycol for RV antifreeze is propylene glycol, because it's 'non toxic', and propylene glycol can't accurately be tested with a hydrometer.

I believe the transfer fluid in the Alde is propylene glycol as well.

A quick Google search comes up with this:

"Hydrometers only work for Ethylene Glycol based coolant/antifreeze. Propylene Glycol cannot be read with a hydrometer due to the fact that up to 70% concentration specific gravity increases, but above 70% specific gravity decreases. A 100% solution reads identical to a 40%."

BridgerSunset

Well, maybe Truma misunderstood;  but my query to them was exactly this :

"My question is this:  in T@B400 campers, and others, the Alde system operates with the Century TF-1 heat transfer fluid, as specified in the Alde Operating instructions.  This blend is not to exceed 50-50 (glycol/distilled water) per that operating manual.

 What temperature then is that blend able  to protect an Alde heat system to, within a camper that’s stored outside for days in brutal temperatures?

 Many are interested in a prompt answer please.

 Thanks & regards,"

I guess I'll take their answer for now at face value.

Sharon_is_SAM

So, you are good down to -29 F with a 50% mix.  I hope I never need to remember that info😂

bergger

Does anyone know what the mixture is coming from the NuCamp Factory?  I hope it's 50% because I live at 10,200 feet and it gets cold up here.  So far we've only seen one night of -17 with most being in the single to low teens.  Right now the trailer is stored down in the Denver area until the snow melts and I can get the new pad built so nothing to really worry about.  But come this spring it'll be up here permanent.  I wonder if I should put our electric oil radiator in the trailer on those really cold nights?

Michigan_Mike

I’d be looking for a double insulated pair of long Johns at that elevation!!!  😂

bergger

Trust me I have all sorts of warm undergarments and overgarments!! 

Denny16

The nüCamp factory mix is the recommended 40/60% mix.  

Thanks Sharon, fixed my post.  My understanding was prior to the recent change, they were using the Century TF premix fluid, which I thought was 50/50.
cheers

Sharon_is_SAM

@Denny16 - Alde recommends 40% glycol and using a premixed glycol.  The premixed Century TF is 40%.  Are you sure the factory supplies the 50% mix?  

CharlieRN

BridgerSunset said:

As discussed often on this forum, the Alde system requires Century TF-1 fluid, and at the normal 50-50 mix it is good down to minus 20-25 deg. F.,  Noted also that the Alde Operating manual states not to go stronger than this 50% mix.   So, if the T@B is stored outside and/or unable to be heated, it would be nip & tuck right now in Montana, as we have those kinds of temperatures for the next 4-5 days.   I'll check with Alde, but am curious if any of our northern friends have addressed this, maybe by cheating a little on the blend?

I can't add anything about the Alde, but wanted to add that Montana is the coldest place I've been, and as a skier, I've been to more than a few pretty chilly places.

Two years ago at Big Sky, it was -35F one morning. I quickly learned that this was cold enough to render my fingers rigid and useless within about 30 seconds after taking a glove off. The folks from Bozeman told us that they hoped we were enjoying the balmy weather on the mountain - it was -37F down there that day. It warmed up to a nearly tropical -2F by mid-day on the mountain, but it was a beautiful bluebird day, so skiing was not actually too uncomfortable.

Until that day, I wasn't really aware that -37 is about the same temperature in either Fahrenheit or Centigrade.

ChanW

Yep! -50 in Montana when we lived there. (Course I didn't have a thermometer that went that low so this was 'hearsay' at the time)

The contracting walls of the cabin sounded off as though someone were hitting them with 55 gallon drums!