Land Rover Defender as a tow vehicle?

rh5555

We are considering upgrading our tow vehicle to a Land Rover Defender (with 6-cyl engine and tow package).  Wondering if anyone out there has experience with what looks like the ultimate tow vehicle.

4ncar

I had a '95 Discovery that I towed my boat with occasionally. Wheel base was 90"...a little short for my liking.  In those years, the Discovery & Defender were body on frame, and the frames were the same. Not sure what the new specs are, but I believe its based on the newer discovery chassis, which might be similar in length.  What are the towing specs for the vehicle?

N7SHG_Ham

I have a good friend that had older rover products, neither were very reliable.

I just looked up a couple reviews saying same, other than my friend's experience I haven't much else to go on, but for sure worth a deep dive into what others are saying.

rh5555

We're thinking of the long wheel base version, the "110" (which is actually 119" wheel base).  Max towing is 8200 lbs with 770 maximum tongue weight.  I believe the Defender is an all-new chassis, and significantly beefed up. Attached are the technical specs.

4ncar

@rh5555: I’d say go for it! The British never figured out electrics or gaskets. That said, I got 140,000 relatively problem free miles out of my ‘95.

Travelin3D

I think the saying goes the English like warm beer because they use Lucas refrigerators....

CharlieRN

FWIW, Consumer Reports scores the Defender at 45. of a range from 43 (worst - MB GLE) to 84 (best - BMW X5) in their luxury mid-size SUV category. Reliability is rated at 1 out of 5, the lowest possible rating.

I recently read an article in which the new head of the Land Rover division lamented the poor impression of quality by the public and said that it cost them at least 500,000 in lost sales each year. The company has taken some steps to improve QA (their CR rating is improved from the past) but it looks like they still have a ways to go.

Reliability may not matter too much if long term ownership is not part of the plan.

Denny16

If you are looking for a luxury type 4-wheel drive SUV, you should consider the new Jeep Wagoner or Grand Wagoner, both will match or exceed the Defender in towing, comfort and handling.  I tow a 2018 TaB 400, with a Jeep Gladiator truck, which has a quad cab, and whilst not exactly in the luxury class is fun o drive, and tows the TaB quite nicely, and gets better mpg than the Defender specifications show.  

I have a hard time seeing this short wheel base defender having a 7200 / 700lbs tow rating.  Short wheel base vehicles and heavy trailers do not mix nicely.  It this is a UK/EU rating, it will be lower for a US import model due to the difference in trailer build/towing practices.
cheers

dlb

Check out a BMW X5 or Audi Q5 or SQ5 to tow your 400.  Both are very nice vehicles.  I have driven the X5 many times and have the SQ5.  We tow our 400 with the SQ5.  The SQ5 is not my drop top roadster but sure is fun to drive.

xdr

rh5555 said:

We are considering upgrading our tow vehicle to a Land Rover Defender (with 6-cyl engine and tow package).  Wondering if anyone out there has experience with what looks like the ultimate tow vehicle.

@rh5555 Defenders are amazing vehicles and one of the most capable factory 4WDs made. I've spent quite a bit of time in Europe and have seen these towing many different types of trailers. Just verify all the tow ratings of what you end up buying. 

Denny16

Yes they are.  But you can not go buy EU towing experiences for any TV.  In UK, a small Jeep Renegade can tow a TaB 400 or Small Airstream (Bambi type) but not the in North American market.  Same vehicle, but the aEU/UK tow ratings are different due,to the difference in how trailers are setup (they have lighter tongue weights and longer trailer draw bars) and they tow at lower speeds, max is 55mph equivalent speed.

Trying to compare how a given vehicle performs towing in Europe/UK to towing in NA is an apples/oranges comparison.  The Defender towing specifications referenced at the start of,this discussion are probably EU specifications.  He Defender is going to end up with a NA specification similar to a Jeep Grand Cherokee, as they are similar vehicles.  

The original Land Rover Defenders were based on the US Jeep, same frame/drive line designs with a different body.  The new Defender is more like the SUV style of the Grand Cherokee, and has about the same capability, but with better approach and departure angles with gives it an off road edge.
cheers

rh5555

@Denny16 said:

The Defender towing specifications referenced at the start of,this discussion are probably EU specifications

No, those are the US specifications.

The EU/UK hitch setup is totally different to the US/Australia version of the Defender.

EU/UK version is 330 lbs maximum tongue weight at uses a retracting hitch:

US/Australia version uses a more familiar (to us) Class 3 hitch with 771 lbs maximum tongue weight:

Both hitches can pull up to 8200 lbs with the P400 engine.

Denny16

OK, that is good, thanks for the update.  But again there is quite a difference between a 8200lbs flat bed equipment trailer or utility trailer and a RV/Travel trailer like the nüCamp Avia, which I definitely would not tow with a Defender or my Jeep Gladiator truck, even though both are within max towing specifications.  A TaB 400 should be fine, but that is a determination you need to make, and what you are comfortable with. How much does the new Defender weigh, and what is the wheel base?  Also is there a trailer front area max specification given?  

You need to take all of these factors into consideration when determining if a given vehicle can handle a medium size or large RV trailer, which has a higher center of gravity, and larger overall mass size to catch wind loads than a utility trailer used to make the manufacturer’s towing specifications.  

See my post for an example of what happens when you are towing at the edge of a TV’s limit:  https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/13182/towing-a-tab400-with-undersized-tv#latest

Most US vehicle towing limits are based on towing a test utility trailer up a specific grade at highway speeds (55-70mph) without the engine/tranny overheating and being able to maintain a minimum speed.  Tongue weight is a percentage of max tow weight and rear axle max loading weight, which is classified as part of the max cargo weight rating.  The rating should be more of a specific engineering/design specification, and not so much on how much weight you can tow up a hill at highway speeds.  Just because a vehicle can do it, does not make it safe to do.

Try renting a Defender and try towing a trailer the size/weight of TaB400, and try towing it with a medium to full size PU truck for comparison.   Then make tour final informed decisions.  What ever you decide to do, please be safe and happy travels.

Cheers

morey000

There's a lot more to buying a vehicle than some perceived reliability.  Rovers are cool.  In style and capability.  I just have a little '16 Evoque- but I can't believe the 4WD roads I made it up and down this weekend, pulling a T@B 320 Boondock.  I'd imagine a Jeep would also be able to do it- but most other SUVs, not a chance.  I was truly impressed with the Rover's 4WD capability.  Wheels off the ground- and not even a hint of wheel spin.  

4ncar

@Denny16: The '90s D90 & 110 (along with the Discovery all used a 3.9L alum. V8 that was originally a GM engine. The transfer Case was Borg Warner. The older Series II III defenders were all Rover engines of one variant or another.  There wasn't an ounce of Jeep in any LR; they were built as a direct competitor to the jeep. Their drivelines were head and shoulders above any jeep built; they were more akin the the G Box by Mercedes: Sealed front knuckles, center differential, etc. Jeep never had either.

Denny16

Sorry, didn’t mean to infer the Land Rover Defender used Jeep parts.  I was referring to the base design of the 4-wheel drive Defender and frame design that was based on Jeep designs, from what I have read, but built with British bits of course.  The original 50-60s Defenders also drove like a Jeep, but Land Rover came out with longer wheel base Defenders before US Jeep came out with a longer wheel base Wrangler, and Wagoner style 4WD vehicles. 

Both Jeep and Land Rover (Defenders) made 4WD PU trucks that were based on a truck style ladder frame and solid front axle, with a body bolted on.  Newer Land Rover SUVs also use uni-body construction as does Jeep with their SUV style Cherokee variations.  

Land Rover had the edge, in my opinion, by keeping their Truck style and Suburban style Defenders, built on a truck style frame, in production after Jeep dropped theirs, going to SUV style on their Cherokee (Grand Cherokee) and smaller SUV type Jeeps.  Jeep had also dropped the larger Wagoner (built on a truck frame), the original 1/2 ton Gladiator and later the smaller Comanche P/U truck in the last part of the 20th Century.  Only last year did Jeep finally release a new Jeep PU truck (combining the previous Gladiator and Comanche) into the new Gladiator, a large Mid-size truck, and released the new Wagoner and Grand Wagoner this year.

The new Defender is all Land Rover, and has very little left of the original Jeep based  Defender design left, which for me is a sad day (I liked the classic design of the original Defender).  That said, the new 2021 Defender seems to be a very capable off road vehicle, with a classy  style to it, and definitely a more comfortable driving experience than the original Defender vehicles of the last Century.  

Cheers

4ncar

@Denny16: In that light, ALL 4wd sport Utes are based on Willy's Jeeps.  They were the first, so everything after is "similar."

Denny16

No, only frame on body design/construction with rigid front and rear axle 4WD vehicles are based on Willy’s Jeep design.  Newer independent front or front and rear suspension AWD or 4WD vehicles (most SUV types) are somewhat different, and do not use similar 4WD components, like Dana axles, or manual 2-speed transfer cases.  Each has their advantages and disadvantages, depending on the type of off road adventures you plan on taking.  From what I have read on Land Rover history, they used the Willy’s WWII Jeep design as a basis for their original Defender design, as did Toyota Land Cruiser and Ford Bronco.  

“ Originally created for the military in the Far East, the Toyota Land Cruiser has evolved into a status symbol for well-heeled buyers in the West. It originally borrowed heavily from the American Jeep and British Land Rover.”  https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/the-surprising-history-of-the-toyota-land-cruiser/ss-BB1a3pPS

On the highway, the newer independent, unibody construction (currently used in the new Land Rover Defender and most 4WD SUVs) will give a better ride.  But off road, in some situations the solid axles of more traditional design will articulate more, keeping all the wheels in ground contact, where an independent suspension might not.

For towing, I prefer a body on frame design, as it has a more robust construction for towing forces.  Look and the body/frame failure issues in a Subaru SUV towing trailers like a TaB 320.  

Cheers

4ncar

Of course unibody is non inclusive... that is modern technology(relatively) as is non live axle(aka independent suspension).

DougH

@Denny16 Slightly off topic, but the day of my diesel Gladiator's arrival is growing nearer. I'm familiar with the SAE mechanism for establishing towing limits, but what is stopping the Gladiator from towing 8,000lbs once sufficient engine bay air flow is resolved?  If I go from stock 3.73 to 4.10 rear end, change up the rear springs, etc. am I good to go?  (love the Gladiator and don't want a traditional half ton)

CharlieRN

To my eyes, there's a lot of the classic Range Rover going on in this new E-SUV.

Lots to like in other ways too: Adjustable ground clearance from 9" up to around 14", payload of 1,800 lbs and 7,700 lbs of towing capacity, lots of cargo space at 108 cf plus an additional 12 cf in the "frunk". No slouch in performance either - 0 to 60 mph in about 3 seconds. Would be a perfect TV when (more likely if) they can get its routine effective range while towing to 300 or so miles . . .

Denny16

Doug, the engine airflow/cooling issue with the Echo diesel is not likely to change, as,it would require a completely different front grille, and this is not likely to happen.  The issue is, the diesel turbocharger eats some of the air flow used for cooling.  

Diesel engines are great for towing, but due to this engine cooling issues, Jeep actually recommends pulling a maximum of 6,000 pounds with the Gladiator Rubicon EcoDiesel. That's a full 1,000 pounds less than a truck equipped with the 3.6-liter V6. Payload drops a bit, too, from 1,160 pounds in the gas truck to 1,075 in the EcoDiesel.

Towing is more than horsepower or engine torque.  You need to consider the TV gross weight with the trailer/load weight, and stay under the max rating of this number also.  You need to consider how,this trailer weight is going to,effect yiur handling of the TV, and the towing dynamics of this rig combination.

 Whilst my Gladiator can tow 7,000 lbs, I would not tow a 6,000 lbs RV, let alone a 7K one.  Towing a TaB400 works well, and is likely the biggest RV type trailer I would want to tow.  Also, towing a 2,500 lbs equipment trailer (surge brakes) with 3,000 lbs of tractor is as heavy a load I want to pull.  When you get up to 4,500-6,000 lbs of trailer load, you can feel the load behind you, and need to be careful, least the trailer and load takes control of the truck.  For 6,000 plus loads, I would want a bigger and heavier truck, just for the added tuck mass to safely control a heavy trailer/load.

Towing dynamics is more than being able to pull a given load, yiu need to be able to safely control that trailer and load, and this is why most heavier trailer setups use a 5th wheel hitch.  Frame receiver hitches due to their location behind the TV axle design, limit what you can safely tow and control.  The strength of the hitch receiver, and how it is attached, along with how far behind the axle the receiver is, and the front area of the trailer being towed all needs to be considered.

I wanted to rent a 5,000 GVWR dump trailer (tandem axles) about 14-feet long, and the rental company said, I needed a 3/4 ton truck, they didn’t care what my towing capacity rating was.  So insurance companies and what they will cover needs to get factored into the equation.  If your truck is rated at 6,000 max towing rating, and you tow a 6,500 lbs load and have an accident, your insurance company might not pay out.  You could also be cited for hauling n unsafe load.  

Jeep claims 7,500 for a Max-Tow package Gladiator, but I do not think I would want to tow a 6,500 or even 7,000 lbs trailer/load, let alone 7,500 lbs.  On my max tow rear springs, the rear end drops 2-inches with 450 lbs of tongue weight, not sure what 600 lbs would do, not sure I want to find out either. 

Cheers

DougH

@Denny16 Thank You. I used to heavily modify cars, and with extra superchargers, turbochargers, transmission coolers, and intercoolers being added behind radiators, often with even more restrictive grills than a Jeep but several times more power... a high flow set of narrow profile electric fans and replacement radiator would overcome any temperature issues. Enough extra air flow to suck in a bird flying twenty feet over the vehicle. Coasting speed with the engine off, but extra fans on, of around 8mph on flat ground (kidding on both counts). 

I'll adhere to the legal and insurance limits of course, and I'm planning on getting the Sport S version without a whole passle of weighty options (6500lbs on the Sport S EcoDiesel versus 6000lbs on the Rubicon EcoDiesel). Andersen anti-sway WDH.

But I phrased my question poorly.  I guess I was looking for what the top few mechanical design elements of the Gladiator might be (gearing, engine cooling, width, wheelbase) that would make you only stay at 50-70% the rated limits. 

In other words, I was curious to hear if you would say that if only Jeep changed X, Y, and Z, you would comfortably tow with a Gladiator at 80% the towing limits instead of 60%.  Know what I mean?

I've not decided on a next camper yet, but suspect it will be a toy hauler.  There's a half dozen candidates in the 3500-4500lb dry weight (4500-5500 fully loaded). I think I'm hearing you suggest I should choose on the lighter side of that list, or give up on the Gladiator, and instead modify a 2021 Ram Rebel ($55k MSRP for the diesel) to be more like a Gladiator (fabricated equivalent of a freedom top, etc). I just prefer the fuel mileage, aesthetics, sketchy forest road worthiness, and size of the Gladiator more.

Denny16

Doug, it has to do with the weight of the Gladiator, which is around 4,700 lbs.  Having towed a variety of trailers with different trucks, (I had a heavy RV trailer Jack knife on me towing it with a light 1/2 Ton PU on a 3/4 ton frame/axle.  So for highway towing, I prefer to limit a trailer to the weight of thenTV pulling it when using a frame/bumper receiver tow bill setup.  

 I have pulled heavier boat trailers, which tow easier than an RV, as the weight is more evenly distributed on the trailer and lack the front sail area of an RV, but still prefer to keep my trailer load and TV as balanced as I can.

That said, when towing heavier loads, I keep my speed at 60 mph or less.  The closer the trailer weight is to the TV weight, the slower one should tow, to be safe and have a margin for error.  Distribution of the weight on a trailer is also important, and my limits have more to do with towing dynamics than trying to push to max tow specifications on a given TV.

I towed my tractor once with a Jeep Renegade a short distance in back roads, but I would definitely not try to take it in a highway anywhere, whist I was just within the max tow capacity or slightly over it, the tractor and trailer definitely out weighted the Renegade TrailHawk, but it was doable for a short distance at 25-30 mph.  So what you tow and how you tow it are all situational, and no one solution fits all situations.

The Jeep Eco diesel is capable, but it is not a medium duty diesel found on larger trucks (3/4 to 1.5 ton).  That said, you will not have any issues towing a TaB400 with the Gladiator (diesel or gas version), but I would not try towing a nüCamp Avia with one, at least not very far or fast! 
cheers

TBullard

RF, I have a 2015 Range Rover Sport. 6 cylinder with a SuperCharger.  It tows like a dream.  I use the Curt Echo Bluetooth Brake controller.  RR Sport came with factory tow package and 7 pin connector.  I can see buying a used Defender down the road.