Used vs. New

Krista

Hi Everyone,

I'm hoping some of you can help me.  We are very close to purchasing a T@B (finally) and are trying to decide between an older used (Dutchmen) and new (2015-2016 Little Guy).  Although he likes the lower price, my husband has some concerns about purchasing a Dutchmen T@B since the company is no longer making them.   He would like me to come up with some pros and cons of purchasing used and new so that we can make a decision.  I can think of several pros for each, but I know there is a good variety of owners of older and newer T@BS on this forum that are much more knowledgeable than me!  You are such a great group and I know we could find the answers and help we need if we go either route.  

Thank you so much for your help! 

Krista

Krista

I should add... the older T@B we are considering is a Q model, but if we got a new one we would most likely get an S. 

Krista

jkjenn

I think buying new, you shouldn't have to fix anything major, right off the bat, or if you did, it would be covered under warranty. Buying used, you may or may not have to fix something major soon. If you guys are handy and don't mind fixing something or updating things yourselves, I think the used is fine. If you don't want to have to think about it, I would go new. to avoid everything being a project....and I still take on projects.

Verna

LG model: 1 yr warranty. Lots of information here to help you, along with a private FB page. Pleasant Valley can help with troubleshooting. Newer products inside (you know the laptop I bought yesterday is already outdated, as are all electronics.) 

DM model: no warranty. You must research to check the common trouble shoot for the common problem areas--floor rot issues, appliances are older and need to check them, etc. Information here, on FB and Yahoo for support. Pleasant Valley can help with some parts. And Pleasant Valley does repair these upon request, but they are not under warranty. 

DISCLAIMER: This is is not meant as a slam at the DM models--merely what I have read for advice to someone looking at a used DM T@B to purchase. 

Mouseketab

Another thing to consider, DM T@Bs have a MUCH lower cargo capacity. DM T@Bs have an Al-Ko frame that is rated at 1930 gross. LG T@Bs have a different frame that is rated much higher. So you have to be very careful about the "stuff" you load in a DM T@B. Most of your outdoor accessories need to be in your tow vehicle.

My T@B is 1710 dry, so can only put 220 pounds of "stuff" in the T@B while traveling. I travel with a pretty beefy truck with a camper shell, so have room for all the outside "stuff" in the truck and keep the camper ready to camp with only kitchen dishes, hoses, bedding, and clothing.

So look at the dry weight of the DM T@B and consider your tow vehicle. How much room do you have?

To keep the weight down, I always travel with no water, minimal food, and the beer cooler, awnings, tables, rugs, and chairs are in the truck.

Now the positives. DM T@Bs have a much simpler water system. All I have to do to winterize is run a little bit of the pink stuff through my kitchen sink pump. I have no holding tanks, so just run my sink drain directly to a sewer connection or a small portable grey tank. I empty the portapotty in the campground restroom. The negative to the simple water system is no hot water. You have to heat water using the stove or use a Zodi/Coleman, or some other hot water thing. I installed an electric InSinkerator hot water machine.

The price of a used one is most definitely less than a new one.

Pleasant Valley is VERY accommodating and is stocking the sealed wheel bearings and brakes for us. Corner steady (stabilizer) parts are easily found from across the pond on ebay. Shocks (if desired) and replacement jockey wheels can be found from across the pond merchants on ebay also.

The remaining interior parts are all available from Pleasant Valley or standard RV places and can be easily replaced.

Krista

JKJenn, Verna, and Mouseketab,  Your input has been very helpful!  We have a truck we can use to tow and have space in the back to store equipment.  I didn't realize that the DM T@B had the lower cargo capacity so that is one thing to consider.  I grew up camping in a 70's Starcraft Pop-up so I'm okay with the simple water system and no bathroom, although I'm sure I would use the shower at least if we purchased a new S model.  

Thanks so much for your help! 

Krista

Mouseketab

Oh, one other thing, DM T@Bs use surge breaks, Little Guy T@Bs, you need an electric brake controller.

jkjenn

Here are, I believe a comparison between older DMs and a new T@b - other feel free to correct or add to:

mash2

The issue with DM parts has not been a problem with my '06.  

The bath is definitely the biggest issue if you want/need one.  If a built in toilet and shower is desired, the new one's are the way to go.  (I have an '06;  I have a makeshift setup in a shower tent and portable shower system but it is less that perfect solution.  The same tent keeps my simple toilet if I need it).  My setup will do in a pinch but is no replacement for a "formal" shower and toilet.

It is a tradeoff... the upside of the DM's is that the system is much less complex than the newer systems, requiring much less maintenance....downside is that it is definitely more primitive.

The surge brakes don't require a controller...no modification of TV is required.

Much of the rest of the comparison 
I swapped out the light bulbs on the DM to LED (simple replacement - cost was $12 as I recall).  
Don't find the tail lights an issue.  
Prefer the carpeted ceiling to the wood ceilings - but that is a matter of taste
Floors weren't carpeted but linoleum on the DM.  
I have outlets in my '06.  There was a 12v socket that I added USB with plugin. I added more when I needed them. 
Have never had an issue with parts.   I keep a set of bearing and brakes for my system.  When I have it service, I just take them with me and requrest that they order replacements (delivery times have been slower for the older parts), so have had no issues with timely work.  
I had city water hookup (depended on the DM model).

The price on my '06 DM was one third that of a new one (demand has pushed the prices up on the used ones but they still can be had for about half the price of new from what I can tell).  

I had plenty of spare funds to upgrade my systems.   I added major solar, additional 12v plugs, replaced tires, etc.  
Never felt the need for hot water, so did not add on demand hot water to the system.  

I'm constantly amazed at the issues and maintenance needs in the more complex systems of the new T@B's.  

I did have to do work on my '06, but given the price, I felt free to experiment without worrying about lost retail value.  If you like to tinker and don't need the bath/shower, the DM is fine.  As I said, I keep bearing and brake set to ensure timely work can be completed.  I think everything else on the DM system is relatively available without issues (WFCO charger system, Alde heater, stove, cool cat, fan, etc).  

Much depends on what you are looking for.  If you don't want to deal with the trailer systems, the new T@B's are definitely set up better for buy and use without modifications (although mine was fine as purchased... since I like to tinker and modify to fit my needs, I definitely played with the inside setup.  However, the original heater, controller water, frig,stove that came with mine are still original.  
  
If you peruse this forum (or the yahoo forum), regardless of the age of the trailer, lots of folks  tinker with  their T@B...regardless of the age.  The DM parts have not been an issue (with the exception of timeliness of bearings, brakes which led me to pre purchase replacements), the demise of the company has not been an issue. 

Krista

Mash2,  thank you for the informative post! All of you are being so helpful!

Krista

Mouseketab

I do the same as Mash2. I have a spare set of brakes and wheel bearings that live in my truck.

As for the comment above about a not as sturdy frame. It is steel and is sturdy as any of them, just for a lower weight.

mash2

Concur with Mouseketab.  The frame issue seems like a red herring.

Krista

We have quite a lengthy drive to see the 2009 we are interested in. I printed some info from the yahoo group on things to look with an older T@B. How would I know about any floor rotting issues? Would it feel "spongy"? The owners said they just took it camping 2 weeks ago and everything (cool cat a/c, 2 way fridge, and fan) was all working perfectly. 

Thanks again for all your help!

Krista

Nomad

mash2 said - "I'm constantly amazed at the issues and maintenance needs in the more complex systems of the new T@B's"
Keep in mind that this is the place to get answers to "problems" - that problem may only affect .0000001% of all T@Bs. With 12k+ miles on mine so far, I actually thought there'd be more issues/maintenance.

jcfaber1

We purchased a 2007 DM for $7400 with thermarest screen room.  Here in the Midwest (northern IL) mosquitoes are a big problem and the tent is a life saver.  We chose to purchase used as it was our first trailer moving from tent camping both by car and backpacking and was not sure how we would like it.  If we hadn't liked it then it would be easier to sell with less depreciation.  The initial investment was less and an easier way to justify the investment.  That said, I wish we had it years ago.  If you do buy used, you need to assess your ability to work on these because if you have to pay for all of the repair and upgrades, much of the cost advantages may disappear. 

We have not had many repairs(converter & propane sensor) in the just short of two years but we have made many upgrades to make it fit our lifestyle.  For us it has been great, and I have had a lot of fun with the upgrades bordering on an obsession.  We mostly avoid hookups and prefer being around tenters and smaller campers over the big rigs and more remote places.  I like being able to camp where most any tent camper can.  I got comfortable while looking at it and quickly saw it had seen little use over the years, the floor felt solid, was clean and solid underneath and I did not see any sign of water damage whatsoever inside including the wheel wells and inside cupboards.  Look at the cabinets, fabric and see if they have been abused or treated well.  I did get on a ladder and looked at the top and verified there was no sagging or apparent sunlight damage.  We have the 12v only fridge and like it a lot.  We have had +10K miles of fun filled days.  Good luck, the right answer is the one that fits your needs and budget.

John

JBick

I will echo jcfaber1 above. We bought a 2007 TQ model used in April, and have loved it so far. We have already put in over 2,000 miles on her, and about 18 nights. This was our first foray into RV camping, and felt more comfortable with a smaller investment to see how we liked it. We are now starting to do some upgrades (my wife is recovering all the cushions as I am writing this).

We don't have the bathroom, but most of the time we are staying in a campground with one nearby, so that isn't too much of a problem. Personally, I like having the larger, queen-sized bed, as I am 6'5".

jcfaber1

We also do not have the bathroom and like the extra space inside.  However I added a water tank underneath, city water, outdoor shower and a tankless water heater. 

Mouseketab

jcfaber1

How did you add the water tank? I have city water already, and for a long time left my portable tank at home for the extra storage space, until the time I arrived at a campground that was electric only, so had to improvise for water.

that would be nice to gain that space back in that kitchen cabinet. (Clamshell)

jcfaber1

I made an aluminum frame which I bolted to the frame in front and the back was bolted with U-bolts around the axel.  I purchased a 10 gal tank.  Over on the Yahoo forum Peter Buck has a nice write up on it as I made mine off of his plan.  He added tow tanks but I only added the water tank.  I used sturdier aluminum but he chose wiser on the tank.  If you want I could take photos the next time I am out where we have it stored. 

John

Krista

You are all so helpful! I'm leaning more towards the used one at this point. My husband and I are pretty handy and we don't mind doing some improvements as needed. It would free up a little money to do traveling that isn't RV-ing as well. I really appreciate all your help. I will let you know what we decide. 

Krista

mash2

I purchased a second five gallon can.  Keep one in TV and other in it's location in T@B...switch them if I need to.

My reasoning for used was similar to jcfaber.  I picked up my '06 for $6k, just to try it out.   In past 2 1/2 years, I have traveled about 25,000 miles with it with the only issue in the heater (just need to reset the switch and it continues to work).  Nothing has gone bad in these trips (2-3 months on the road).  It has been fun to tinker and, in my case, I picked it up for cheap enough that I don't think I would face any depreciation if I decided to sell. But it ain't new....

Mouseketab

Thanks John, I'll go digging on the Yahoo group.

Mash my problem at that campground wasn't a total lack of water, it was not having a container for it. I had always depended on city water hookups right at the campsite post. Had to run to Walmart for a blue water jug to fill and use for washing dishes, etc. I still travel without water, but I do bring the jug with me to be able to use if needed.

Mouseketab

If you do actually go look at the used one... Bring a flashlight. Somebody get inside with all the blinds closed and the lights off. Somebody on the outside shine a flashlight underneath at the wheelwells, the seams on the side, the seams on the front, etc. If you can see light coming through you have some holes to fill. Also, spray a water hose on it, and check all those same seams and inside cabinets. Push, poke, prod, flip switches, turn knobs, etc, etc.

Krista

This information is priceless! Thank you so much!

Krista

Cyclonic

jkjenn said:

Here are, I believe a comparison between older DMs and a new T@b - other feel free to correct or add to:

A few things wrong on this,  the DM frame is galvanized steel, LG uses a powder coated steel frame.  DM wheels are 16 inch car tires, which could be seen as an advantage.  DM have a propane furnace and a parking brake.

Machak88

Here is a simple  t@b upgrade suggestion to LG / Pleasant Valley: PLEASE ADD A PARKING BRAKE like DM had (see Cyclonic's post above). That would increase safety while adjusting t@b's position on the campsite while detached from TV.

Verna

The factory does not read the forum. Most campers do not have a parking brake. Write up your idea with why and how and send it to Pleasant Valley.

mash2

Pxlated, I was not attempting to knock the quality of the new t@bs.  My impression is that they are extremely well made.  The forum is great for getting information from other users, including potential fixes, issues that help the user base.  The comment was really concerning the complexity of the systems in the newer models.  I have a simple heater, "manual" grey water (five gallon container that I hook up when I use sink), etc.   The Alde system is advanced, offering significant improvements...but it is a far more complex system than the propane heating system that came in my system.  

This is both a positive and negative;  more features but seems like there is all more maintenance required to maintain the systems.  

If you need and want hot water (I just boil it when I need it), and formal bathing/toilet facilities, the new T@B's definitely offer significant improvements over the older models.  Most of the rest of the difference list seems like noise.  
I added a step that collapses, the USB outlets are simple to add, frames are similar, mine came with a plastic cutting board sink cover, mine had a cover for the stovetop, carpet ceiling vs wood are a matter of taste (I like the carpet ceiling more), I replaced the tires, added my own solar port, swapped out for LED lights.  


As I said, if you don't want to deal with changing some parts and don't want to tinker, the newer T@B is the way to go.  In addition, if you want bath facilities built in, the decision is made.  Used allow you to more cheaply try out the T@B (if the features of the used ones meets your needs).  Just tried to outline real differences between the two types of T@B.  

Nomad

mash2 - I didn't take that you were, just wanted to make sure others understand how thes forums work. In the past, some researching campers, have expressed surprise at the issues. Of course this would be true if they researched any item online.

mash2

Agreed.  As an avid tinker, I am partial to used things that are already discounted.  I may change my tune if my wife has her say (she now loves the T@B but longs for a hot shower and a late night alternative to the restrooms).  She's looking at the Safari Altos longingly....

TABaker

Several model years of DM had the glass covered sink and stove.  I prefer my DM sink to the LG, but not all DM sinks are the same...to further complicate. lol    I also like my carpeted ceiling, as I can use velcro or pins to attach things.  I'm also a Cool Cat lover, and am glad you can get one with an LG.  

Another difference between DM and LG is window shades/blinds.  I love the look of the LG system.  Some folks think the shade should come up from the bottom for privacy and airflow, and have reversed the whole thing, which does make sense. Also some DM model years had the wood valance and some did not.  

Many of us DM owners now have LED tail lights, as well.

I do like the simplicity of winterizing my DM.  I run through pink stuff, and carry the water tank into the house and I'm done.  My hot water system is an old coffee urn, which helps with my small onboard water tank.  I fill the urn when I arrive at the campground, and it's heated all weekend, and I have much more water as I would with only the 5 gallon tank.  

I also like the detached step, and if you use the add-a-room you'll need a detached one anyway.  

LG's have a diamond plate rock guard which is very nice.  Some DM owners have added it.  LG also has a fancy screen door, where the DM screen door is a bunch of crap. lol  Some have added the new one to their DM with some modification.  It would nice to have the solar connector to the battery compartment that LG provides.  

DM offered solid body colors in aqua, yellow, and red.  

We have a very active Facebook page, started before LG was making the T@B.  Our members used to be made up of, obviously, DM owners.  Now that pendulum is swinging the other direction as more LG T@Bs are sold.  I think we've gained and shared a lot of info for the LG T@B, including the Alde which we knew zero about.   If you buy a DM, the Yahoo forum is a God send.  It includes tons and tons of valuable information and photos.

I hope this has all been helpful v. confusing. lol.  I wish I could have one of every make and model....  Good luck in your search and your decision.  We're all one big happy family, and can't wait to pull you in