Solar panel not working?

sandystab400

We have a 2022 tab 400 bd with factory installed solar panel. We parked our trailer in our driveway Solar facing roughly west. Only our 2 way fridge is on everything else shut off yet battery was very low such that lights didn’t work etc. Is there a way to test the system to make sure the solar panel is working?

pthomas745

So: no 12V devices are working at all?  You probably have just a fuse or circuit breaker to reset.   Do you have the Victron app to determine the state of charge of your battery?  The App will be able to tell you where to start to troubleshoot.  Is the battery charged?  Is the panel working, etc.

https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-systems-remote-monitoring/victronconnect

If the battery is charged, but no battery power to the trailer, there are breakers and fuses to check.

Near the battery compartment there is a Gloso circuit breaker, and several battery fuses.  Check to see if the breaker needs to be reset.  This thread will show what it looks like.

Here are a couple of threads on what to look for.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/12451/electrical-connection-in-passenger-storage-area-near-battery-switch

And, another.  Same symptoms.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/12916/did-i-kill-my-batteries

Denny16

@sandystab400,  welcome aboard, congratulations on your new TaB400.
as mentioned above, the battery cutoff switch and circuit breaker are in the rear outside access storage locker (Pax side).  Also on the WFCO power converter (on lower front of galley cabinet) there are fuses for various DC circuits and circuit breakers for AC power.  Push the brown cover panel at the top, and it pops open to reveal the breakers and fusses.  

You can check the battery level by putting a meter on the SAE external,so,are panel connector (if you have one) on the driver’s side by the Nautilus access door.  This will show the battery voltage and it should be at 12.8 or higher for a full charge.  A 12VDC reading indicates a discharged battery level, and the solar panel should charge the battery at this point.  

You can download the smart phone Victron Connect app, referred to by pthomas745, download it and it will give you a battery voltage level, and solar charging level in amps of charge rate, and the solar panel voltage level. It’s the amp reading that shows the actual charge level going to the battery.  A fully charged battery will have a low amp charge (trickle charge level) going to it.  

Good luck and happy travels from a TaB400 and Jeep Gladiator owner.

Cheers 

sandystab400

Thanks for the insights. Our battery seems fine as it recharged when I plugged into shore power and now seems fine. My concern it that the factory solar panels did not keep the battery charged with everything turned off in the camper and seemingly good sunlight. Does the Victron Connect app work with the factory Tab 400 electronics or does it require and upgrade or dongle?

Sharon_is_SAM

The VictronConnect app is used to view and control your solar.  No upgrade or dongle needed.  Here is a nuCamp video:

https://youtu.be/lJsW_19-nDY

Denny16

Your TaB400 has a Victron Blue 75/15 solar controller, no additional dongle is required.  The controller is located under the wardrobe (large fridge option) behind the drawer, which pulls out.  The factory code to pair it with the phone app is 000 or 0000.  The factory reset code is on the back of the controller if the 0000 code doesn’t work.  This should get you started.  Something is amiss, as our factory solar keeps our TaB 200-amp.hr. battery charged with the small two way fridge turned on.  

Which fridge do you have the smaller one under the galley cabinet or the new larger two-way fridge mounted on driver’s side next to washroom?  The larger two-way does draw a little more power, but the solar on a good sunny day should keep up.

Some TaB400s did get delivered with the solar controller wired backwards.  Once you get the Victron App downloaded and paired (blue tooth on phone needs to be on and accessible to the app (iPhones need to be setup to allow apps to have access in the phones Setting menu.  You can then see if the solar panel is outputting any voltage, if not and the sun is out (even cloudy bright) the wires on the controller may be reversed.  You can also measure the panel voltage with a multi-meter on the controller where the panel is connected.  Here is what the controller looks like and wire connections:

 The Batt contacts are the battery and will meter 12.x VDC.  The next ones labeled PV are the solar panel connections, and will have a 20-35 VDC meter reading on a sunny day.  The wire mixup could be the two white wires, one is negative from the battery, the other from the solar panel.  The green wire is the solar panel positive lead, and the red wire the battery positive wire.  Load connections are not used.  

Here is a previous discussion these photos came from which may help you sort this out:  https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/125116#Comment_125116

Cheers 

sandystab400

Ok so I got the app and it works great. Here’s a screenshot of the app today which seems to indicate that the solar is working fine.it looked similar to this from today back 30 days. 
 It lo

And yet my battery was dead the other day when I opened up the trailer for the first time in about a month. Everything was turned off. We have the smaller two way fridge. It recharged on shore power no problem. I did update the firmware on the controller first thing. Any thought?

Thanks
Sandy

Sharon_is_SAM

How do you know the battery recharged?  How did you measure voltage?  Was it plugged into shorepower when you measured voltage?

sandystab400

I just used the meter at the door of the Tab 400 that also monitors the water tanks. When I opened up the camper and checked the battery it registered at the lowest led meaning empty. After about 6 hours plugged in to shore power the meter registered full. I disconnected shore power before checking the meter. 

Sharon_is_SAM

The built in meters are not reliable and will over estimate the battery charge.  Now that you have the VictronConnect you can see the battery voltage.  

Grumpy_G

The screenshot of the Victron app tells the story. Battery voltage oscillated between low 8V to mid 11V. The yield of the panel was less than 300Wh which translates to around 25 Ah. Somebody correct me but IIRC the fridge uses more than that in a day. 

pthomas745

The battery readings are all low.  Have a look at the Battery settings page and show us what those settings are.

The battery has "topped" out every day at 280 wh, but the battery is always in "bulk" charging status (that is what the white bars in the history panel mean).  Something in the settings (battery type, voltage, etc) may be amiss.

ColoradoJon

@Grumpy_G is correct.  You are simply using too much power with the fridge on for the solar to keep up.  Turn your fridge off, then monitor the charge over the next couple of days and see what happens.

Your solar yield seems low.  I don't know what the factory panel power ratings are, but it looks like you are only generating around 5 amps per hour from the solar panel (based on average of 5 sun hours per day).

screwlose

Do you have any of the specs on that Battery?
Guessing its what the Dealer installed at delivery?
Looks like its a pretty small Battery in my opinion.
And it getting down to 8v is not good if it is a Sealed Lead Acid which is what Dealers throw in at delivery.
If you plan to camp without hookups you will need to upgrade that Battery.

Sharon_is_SAM

@screwlose - sandystab400 has a 400.  The 2 - 6 v batteries are installed at the factory.  

sandystab400

I have the battery(s) as delivered from the dealer in November 2021. Here is a screenshot of the status page from the VictronConnect app. The battery remained full per the monitor panel overnight. Thanks for all the comments. 

Sharon_is_SAM

So battery is still charging (Bulk).  Can you check your Settings using the gear icon?

sandystab400

Here is that page. Again thanks for all the analysis. I’m going to have to get up to speed on this. 

Sharon_is_SAM

The settings are appropriate for your 2- 6 v batteries.  Did you turn off the frig?  I would turn it off and plug into shorepower.  You are not getting enough solar to charge the battery and run the frig at the same time.

Denny16

Something is amiss, the 180-watt solar panel should be more than capable of keeping up with the fridge.  Our older two-way which uses a bit more power, when on, and the 190-watt solar panel has no issue keeping up with the drain from the fridge.  I would do a rested battery check after the battery has been charged.  Then run the fridge with solar panel working, and do a second rested battery test after leaving it run for 4-6 hrs, and see what the change in the reading is, if any?   Once the battery is charged, the solar should not be in bulk mode.

Cheers 

ColoradoJon

A 180 watt panel will produce, at its very best and in optimal conditions, just under 13 amps per hour.  That's in clear, bright, super sunny days with no shade or passing clouds.  Let's say the panels get 7 hours optimal sunlight - that's only 91 amps during light hours.  The first screen shot is showing a yield of just over 12 amps (280wh / ~23V)

If the fridge uses 5 amps per hour on average, that's 120 amps in a 24 hour period.  This is with no other load at all - everything else shut off and no phantom drain.

Just not enough panel to run the fridge and charge the battery.

Marceline

ColoradoJon said:

A 180 watt panel will produce, at its very best and in optimal conditions, just under 13 amps per hour.  That's in clear, bright, super sunny days with no shade or passing clouds.  Let's say the panels get 7 hours optimal sunlight - that's only 91 amps during light hours.  The first screen shot is showing a yield of just over 12 amps (280wh / ~23V)

If the fridge uses 5 amps per hour on average, that's 120 amps in a 24 hour period.  This is with no other load at all - everything else shut off and no phantom drain.

Just not enough panel to run the fridge and charge the battery.

I think that you're overestimating the fridge's power usage. The 2-way fridges draw 3.5-5amps when running. But they don't run constantly. More like 30% of the time. 

ckjs

@sandystab400
(Greetings from the north side of Monterey Bay!)

Your 8:51  screenshot showed 14+ volts and only 3 watts. That’s very little. Was the panel in the shade or was the fog pretty thick at the time? It should be 20v when it is bright. 

ColoradoJon

Marceline said:

ColoradoJon said:

A 180 watt panel will produce, at its very best and in optimal conditions, just under 13 amps per hour.  That's in clear, bright, super sunny days with no shade or passing clouds.  Let's say the panels get 7 hours optimal sunlight - that's only 91 amps during light hours.  The first screen shot is showing a yield of just over 12 amps (280wh / ~23V)

If the fridge uses 5 amps per hour on average, that's 120 amps in a 24 hour period.  This is with no other load at all - everything else shut off and no phantom drain.

Just not enough panel to run the fridge and charge the battery.

I think that you're overestimating the fridge's power usage. The 2-way fridges draw 3.5-5amps when running. But they don't run constantly. More like 30% of the time. 

Maybe, but I think you would be surprised!  I've tested several refrigerators for power consumption and none of them used less than 5 amps per hour.  In fact most of them used more power than stated by the manufacturer once tested in 'read world' conditions.  You know, like when you want a cold beer instead of a luke-warm one.

I think the issue here is underestimation of the power consumption of the fridge.  The solar looks like it is working fine, but it just cannot keep up with the load.  Whether that is the fridge itself or the fridge in addition to other power loads on the system.

Denny16

@ColoradoJon, I have a 2018 TaB400 with the older 2-way compressor fridge.  The power consumption rating you are showing is what a 3-way fridge would draw running on DC.  The 2-way compressor fridge uses far less energy, and a 180-190 watt solar panel should not have any issue keeping the battery charged with the 2-way fridge running at 30-40F (about 2.5 setting).  The fridge draws about 3.5 amps when running, but it does Not run continuously.

We had the trailer in NorCal inland at Clear Lake in October, and ran the 2-way fridge on battery during a 3-day power outage whilst we were camping.  We didn’t hook up the first night, and ran the fridge on battery, by mid day next day when we finally could get to our reserved spot and hook up, the 190-watt solar had recharged the battery back to 13.x VDC.  The next day, the power went out for three days, and we boondocked three more nights and 2.5 days without power, fridge running, solar,panel,fading West under a small tree, somit was it partial shade, and again, by mid day the overnight batter use, fridge, lights and ceiling fan, the battery was back up to greater than 13VDC.  This is my real world experience.  Not sure what is going on with thenOP’s system.
cheers 

ColoradoJon

@Denny16 - your anecdotal experience seems to work for you.  When you actually connect meters to these and run them over periods of time, under different conditions, you would be surprised how much energy they use.  3.5 to 5 amps per hour is the manufacturer rating on the fridge according to @Marceline .  If you do the math you have the answer.  I guarantee you that the consumption is at least 5 amps per hour, if not more, and coupled with any other loads on the system, phantom or otherwise, it just gets worse from there.

Refrigerators use considerably more power as the outside temperature increases.  When the outside temperature increases they become less efficient.  If you set the thermostat to a cooler temp, they become less efficient.  We don't know the conditions under which the OPs refrigerator is being used so this is all just an educated guess.

Marceline

ColoradoJon said:

@Denny16 - your anecdotal experience seems to work for you.  When you actually connect meters to these and run them over periods of time, under different conditions, you would be surprised how much energy they use.  3.5 to 5 amps per hour is the manufacturer rating on the fridge according to @Marceline .  If you do the math you have the answer.  I guarantee you that the consumption is at least 5 amps per hour, if not more, and coupled with any other loads on the system, phantom or otherwise, it just gets worse from there.

Refrigerators use considerably more power as the outside temperature increases.  When the outside temperature increases they become less efficient.  If you set the thermostat to a cooler temp, they become less efficient.  We don't know the conditions under which the OPs refrigerator is being used so this is all just an educated guess.

5amp draw X 24hrs would be 120aH a day. I “guarantee you” that is ludicrously wrong. 

I use a 2-way fridge and it absolutely does not use that much power. It does not consume “3.5-5.0 amps per hour.” You are confused. Specifically, my fridge draws 3.6amps when it’s running. I know this for a fact because I’ve checked it with a SmartShunt. (I’m pretty sure that @Denny16 knows how to measure power consumption, too.)

But the 2way fridge only consumes that kind of power when the compressor is running, and the compressor most certainly does not run constantly. I guesstimate that it runs maybe 30% of the time. I’ve had my trailer for 5 years, and real world experience is that overall consumption is 35-40aH/day. 

If your compressor is running 24/7 I would suggest that you contact the manufacturer for assistance. 

Denny16

I agree with Marceline, the older (Norcold 2-way) fridge draws around 3.5-3.6 amps when running, which is not continuous, but cycled off and on.  The on cycle is for around five minuets, off cycle is around 10-20 min. depending on trailer temp, and opening door triggers compressor on also.  

Even in 90+F outside, 75-80F inside the trailer, on our recent trip, the fridge did not run continuously, I did not need to increase the thermostat setting (the fridge cycles on sooner in warmer temps, but still cycles off again) to maintain a 38-40F temp. inside the fridge.  I figured it would need to be turned up a bit higher, did that, and ended up setting it back, down, as it got too cold, down to 33/34F.  The off cycles on the compressor were at least twice as long as the on cycle during the hot part of the day, still not running continuously.

My overnight draw down on the battery whilst boondocking, was about only 25-30 amps total over a 10/12 hr nighttime period, with the 2-way fridge, Fanastic Fan, Alde on standby (control panel on) and small USB fan running all night, lights used for 4-hrs, radio on for 3-hours, during this time frame.  ColoradoJon’s est. of 3.5 amps per hour for the fridge, would be 42+ amps used overnight, plus the lights, etc. would make the total battery use closer to 50 or more amps. used overnight, this was not the case. The 193-watt solar in partial shade, had the battery back up to 100% charge by mid day.  This was the situation for three nights in a row.  Battery never lost more than 35 amps or so overnight.

Cheers

Denny16

@ColoradoJon, I just turned on my 2-way fridge (1030 local time), trailer in drive, no shore power, fridge started up drawing 3.23+/- amps. (including normal trailer parasitic power draw), after several minutes, power dropped to 3.4 amps, the down to 3 amps, with fridge drawing around 2.89 amps as the fridge got down to 45F from a 60F warm startup.  This would be worst case power draw, starting from a warm fridge that has been turned off for a week or more.  As fridge gets to normal 38/40F temp, I will monitor how much power is used over an hour time frame to keep the fridge cold, once it gets there. By 1045, fridge cooled to 50F, fridge still drawing around 2.8-3 amps.

1100 hrs: Fridge compress off, battery amp draw, 0.0 amps (solar panel overcast day proving enough power to cover normal trailer system (parasitic) battery load.  Fridge set to No. 2 , temp 50F.
Turned up thermostat to 2.5, compressor started up, drawing 2.89 amps running.

1130 hrs:  Fridge off current drain is 0.66-0.80 amps (trailer system drain), temp 40f
                 fringe compressor on after opening door, 2.55 amps draw from fridge (factoring in solar panel output, less 0.85 amps for trailer system parasitic load).

Conclusion:  An empty Norcold 2-way fridge starts up from being off (70-75F inside temp.) draws 3.23 (+/- 0.5amps) on startup.  After fridge reaches its set temp 40F, it draws 2.55 amps (+/- 0.5) to maintain the power, cycle lasted about 3 min., then cut back off.  I did not count how many times is cycled during the one hour period, but no significant power draw was recorded, and the battery maintained a 12.8x-13VDC with solar only providing around 1-2 amps of charge per hour.  

Even on an overcast, cloudy day with minimal solar, the system was able to maintain the fridge power drain over a 1.5 hr period.  I did not see a 4-6amp drain on the battery during this test period.  I used the Victron Blue Tooth ap monitor with Solar controller and Fixtron Battery shunt type monitor recording the data.
Cheers

ColoradoJon

@Denny16 - Hey, that's great!  You are getting some efficient usage from your setup which suits your conditions and environment very well.  Your time frames are way too short, though.  One hour isn't enough time to average any kind of power usage.  It gives you a snapshot, though, that you can use.

Stock that fridge, set it to a temperature that actually keeps a beer can nice and cold (no one likes Luke warm beer!), run it over several days hooked up to a meter and calculate the actual amp usage over that period of time.  This is what I did in my tests, except I measured over a much longer period - several months.  Calculate out your daily usage from the fridge - over a 24 hour period, minimum.  Yes, your solar should be able to keep up with the draw *while there is sun to provide charge*.  It's the rest of the day when there is no sun that you have to worry about.

I performed tests on many different refrigerators while calculating loads for my off grid solar cabin.  I got some decent results if I set the fridge to warmer settings, but once I decided that I wanted actual, frozen ice cubes and nice, cold beer and sodas, that power draw increased drastically.  And when the outside temps increased during summer... yeah, you will see some large increases in power consumption.

Cheers.

Denny16

Jon, what fridge did you use for the cabin tests?  We use a fridge thermometer in our TaB400 2-way fridge.  I have run the fridge for three nights and the better part of 4-days, in 80F weather, and the fridge stayed cold, amp draw was similar to my tests above, the battery went down 40/50 amps over night and recharged back up in partially cloudy conditions by mid day off the solar system, whilst the fridge continued to run.  The fridge was full of food, and temp. was maintained at 38-40F.  This was a real boondock camping experience.  We had ice cubes in the freezer tray, that stayed frozen.

I have read several complaints, that the two-way fridge couldn’t keep up with hot weather, which is also contrary to my experience.  On our last trip several weeks ago, we had outside temps in the 90s two days with temps 101-103 range.  The TaB was on shore power, CoolCat running set to 75F, with trailer temps in the 75-80F range.  The fridge kept its temp at 37-40F, again, fridge was full of food.  

Everything stayed cold.  For beer or beverages, I use my cooler with ice — keeps beverages very cold!

Cheers