WFCO WF-8735-AD + LiFePO4: FYI on annoying 'auto detect' quirk

carpense

@KK1L,

Here’s a close-up of the resister you were asking about. Looks like:

- teal blue
- brown
- black

KK1L

Great...thanks. I cannot exactly tell if it is
brn brn blk blk brn (110 Ohms) or
brn blk blk brn brn (1000 Ohms), but in this case it is close enough. It is performing a pull-down function.

carpense

Hi @KK1L,

If I list the color bands from left to right in the photo as it is posted here - not rotated:

LEFT: brown, brown, black, black, brown: RIGHT

You should be able to enlarge the photo:
- on a phone, use two fingers to enlarge
- on a PC using chrome, right click, select open in new window, then enlarge the picture using browser controls. 

So do you think the firmware is required to make this work? 

I look forward to seeing your awesome how-to video explaining how to DIY. 😉

One question - you mentioned (above) it was missing a ground. Do you think that presents a safety issue? Or a performance issue? 

Sara

KK1L

@carpense Thanks for looking at the colors. I had expanded the image. The tricky part about "5 band resistors" is which end is which to start reading the value. Four of the bands are closer together with the 5th with a slightly greater space. At the angle of the photo I could not tell. It is often pretty subtle.

When I mentioned I was surprised they did not "jumper to ground" I meant that I was surprised they used a resistor rather than just a wire to GND. Not a safety worry at all.

To check if this requires a FW update I need to pull my unit, reset it to lead acid, put the resistor in place, power it up and see what happens. It won't harm the unit, especially since WFCO has this support built on the PC board, so I am not worried I will damage my unit. (If I do I it will be an excuse to get a Victron IPS22 . I cannot promise to get that done right away I will be using the camper this week, and work, and a few other projects. However I will give it a try.

By the way no response from WFCO from my inquiry yet.

carpense

@KK1L

Aha… I wondered which direction to read the colors. 

I really know nothing about electricity and - honestly am a little terrified of it. But I’m gradually getting a little more confident as we take on little projects (lithium battery replacement, battery monitor / shunt installation, easy start installation for AC, and now the converter). 

Thanks for your feedback about safety. And good luck with your modification! 

Sara

KK1L

The color code is typically not as confusing as it is on the resistor they used! The 5th band is either missing or silver or gold. This band indicated the "tolerance" of the resistor...+/-5%, or +/-10%, or such.  Brown is a 1% value and a higher precision than typically used in this application. It must have been what they had available to do the job.

ChrisFix

techietab said:

I have not bothered to disable the WFCO charger/converter. Whenever I have the IP22 connected to power, I disconnect the batteries from the camper via the stock battery disconnect dial, so the two charging sources aren't ever competing with each other. 

@techietabn
Do you know if having both chargers (WFCO and Victron IP22) running at the same time would actually be an issue?
I have two Victron MPPT solar controllers running at the same time as the WFCO (powered by a generator) when it's been rainy for days and I'm trying to charge the batteries and that all works fine together (except the performance of the WFCO 8955PEC is much too slow for practical charging from a generator).

I'm looking for a better solution and like the idea of the IP22, and would love to just be able to connect the generator to the T@B's shore power and mount the IP22 near the batteries which could be plugged into an available 110V outlet used with the Alde (all under the bed in a 2021 T@B 400), without having to remember to flip the battery disconnect to prevent the WFCO from charging as well.

Anyone doing something like this?
Thanks in advance and happy camping!

Horigan

It's okay to have the chargers connected in parallel, even if the WFCO is set for AGM and the IP22 is set for LiFEO4.  This is how my trailer is set up.  Once the WFCO sees the higher voltage of the IP22 charger, it stops charging and the IP22, and solar if that's installed, will top off the battery.

ChrisFix

@Horigan
Rich,
Thanks for that info. Just to be clear, you haven't changed anything with the WFCO, and you can use the IP22 even when plugged into shore power (either pedestal or generator), without using the battery disconnect? 

If so, that's the setup I'm thinking of going to. For those times I need the generator to charge, it would be soooo much faster and efficient.

Thanks,
Chris

Horigan

That's correct.  I didn't change anything on the WFCO and I leave the battery switch on.  I couldn't figure out how to disable the WFCO charger and still retain my DC loads.

ChrisFix

@Horigan
Rich,
Thanks for that confirmation. I really appreciate it. 
I see a similar setup in my future, although I do still want to explore changing the WFCO converter/charger to a Lithium capable Progressive Dynamics unit as the other alternative that seems to make sense, but I really do like my Victron equipment, which is why I'm leaning towards the IP22.

rfuss928

Are there any known fixes for the WFCO to lock the lifepo mode?
Does adding the resistor mentioned above work or is there firmware needed?
Reviving an old conversation I hope.

carpense

@rfuss928 The no-cost repair that WFCO made to our auto detect put it in lithium mode permanently. It’s worked flawlessly ever since. Perhaps you can talk with WFCO directly? 

Hammick

SLJ said:

Good to know. Looks like the WF-8735LiS (switched) would be a better choice for a Lithium upgrade over the -AD if you can find one.

What a brainless design.  They should have a switch or at least dip switches to choose the battery type.  These converters have been crap for years.  I remember them from my Forest River toy hauler days.  They would never get to absorption voltage to get the 6v GC2 batteries charged.

MuttonChops

Hammick said:

"WFCO"  . . . What a brainless design.  . . . These converters have been crap for years.

Just like the KIB 4-light useless tank level, battery charge monitors that
RV Builders have been installing for decades. We Consumers are stuck having to live with the low quality of these RV sub-sytems even in a quality built brand like nüCamp.

End of Soapbox

bjn2

@MuttonChops there's perhaps a third-party device coming that sounds like it can improve on the tank level indications on the KIB panel and via an app. The only accurate solution to battery monitoring is a smart shunt. https://rvwhisper.com/tank-whisper/

bjn2

carpense said:

The no-cost repair that WFCO made to our auto detect put it in lithium mode permanently. It’s worked flawlessly ever since. Perhaps you can talk with WFCO directly? 

@carpense I don't see that going through the hassle of consulting with WFCO for approval, unwiring the WFCO converter (not a trivial job and without risk of error), shipping it to them, and then reinstalling the updated converter is truly no-cost. There's way too much work involved to not consider the costs in time. Not to mention the time to learn about the issue and research the solutions. 

carpense

@bjn2, suit yourself. I have absolutely no electrical background. WFCO explained how to remove the motherboard unit for return ( there may have been a video as well, I can't remember). I found the procedure to be trivially easy.  But your mileage may vary. Good luck to you. 

MuttonChops

bjn2 said:
@MuttonChops there's perhaps a third-party device coming that sounds like it can improve on the tank level indications on the KIB panel and via an app. The only accurate solution to battery monitoring is a smart shunt. https://rvwhisper.com/tank-whisper/

@bjn2 ; You may have missed the point of my Soapbox.

It should not be 'the job' of the purchaser of $35K+ products to have to invest in aftermarket items to replace low quality Factory Installed sub-systems.

Yes, we can install a 'Tank Whisper**' (when available) or SeeLevel Tank Monitor.
Yes, we can install current shunts . . . . but why aren't the RV Builders doing so in the first place . . .

     **Tank Whisper looks promising for improved readings with least installation effort.
         I still like the SeeLevel system due to it's greater range of tank level reading.

And we can add the Fantastic Fan to the list of just doing the minimum to allow Marketing to Say 'ventilation fan included'.

rfuss928

I've just started the WFCO free update journey for my 8735-AD. 
Helpful and supportive tech and warranty support on toll free line so far.  Yes, I've got to pull it out.  Not difficult for me but a few hours work out and in no doubt.  Shipping label provided.  One week turnaround typical.  Any other installed fix would take similar amount or more of my time.  I'll like having the converter working as intended.
To be continued...

carpense

@rfuss928 Interested in hearing how it goes. It only took me about 10 - 15 minutes to pull out. Reinstalling was about the same amount of time. Good luck! 

rfuss928

carpense said:

@rfuss928 Interested in hearing how it goes. It only took me about 10 - 15 minutes to pull out. Reinstalling was about the same amount of time. Good luck! 

For the 8735AD the entire unit has to go.  The board has soldered connections.  The tech said there is a jumper fix that sometimes works with the old firmware version 1.7.  They will update firmware to version 1.9 and "lock" it in LiFePo4 if I ask.  Sounds like your experience...
There are about 8 DC circuits to disconnect and 4 AC breakers.  Mostly physically manipulating heavy wires out of and later back into the correct mechanical connection.  More tedious than difficult.
Thanks

rfuss928

I have spoken with a technician and part of the discussion was the following troubleshooting guide.  I was later sent the copy below in response to an earlier email inquiry.  Contact info is also included.
We determined my unit had firmware version 1.7 from a label on the door.   He recommended sending the unit in for the update.  I think version 1.9 is most recent.

Hi Bob,

Have you tried getting the converter to detect the battery type?

You would need to fully discharge the lithium battery.

Plug in the rv and allow the converter to fully charge the lithium battery.

Once finished, the led on the converter should be blue.

 

Couple things to look at.

Circuit number 6 fuse on the WF-8735-AD will likely need to be changed from a 30 amp fuse to a 40 amp fuse.

You inline fuse, located within 3 feet of the battery, will likely need to be updated from a 30 amp fuse to a 40 amp fuse.

 

Also, if you have solar onboard, it is helpful to disable it while detecting battery type.

 

Shaun

 

Shaun Baye

Electronics Engineering Tech.

Arterra Distribution

2021 Aeroplex dr. N.

Elkhart, IN  46514

PH:(574)294-8997 or Toll Free (877)294-8997

Fax:(574)294-8698

WFCO Products www.wfcoelectronics.com

Robermcm

Here’s my wfco door label. I highlighted what might be the firmware version, per chance we get to a point where people can chose whether to add a resistor or not without shipping it back, with improved knowledge of their chances of blue light success. Mines a 2023 400, so likely own the ‘7’ software that’s typically updated. 

rfuss928

So... the the 8735AD is back from being updated.  Ten days total round trip from prepaid drop off at UPS Store to package on my front porch.  The DC wiring was incredibly easy with WAGO connectors on all the feed wires to the trailer wiring.
The AC wiring was a PITA.   There are five 12 awg romex cables plus the internal connections for the converters supply all in the space of a residential single gang box.  Tight space and stiff solid wire...

So it's back in the trailer and the blue light is lit.  All is good so far.
WFCO was very helpful and accommodating in every communication.  Very satisfied with the support provided.
"Firmware update Version 1.21A - Jumper installed" on packing slip.
I asked for it to be locked in LiFePo4 mode.  
I need to run down the batteries a bit before I can evaluate the charger function.

Nice to see the blue glow from inside!  WAGO connections for the DC circuits.

This update provided the perfect opportunity to move the batteries out of the tongue box into the bench next to the converter substantially shortening the length of wiring from it and the nearby solar and DC to DC chargers.  I'll post photos in a separate post.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/18199/ultimate-toys-cs-s-lifepo4-upgrade

carpense

Glad it’s worked out! Thanks for posting.

bjn2

As @rfuss928 posted, dewiring and wiring the AC side is a PITA. I experienced some of that when I installed a hardwired EMS. @MuttonChops, I'm in 100% agreement with your soapbox argument. Unfortunately, the industry seems content with the status quo. Our 2023 came with the autodetect sticker, so it shouldn't need a firmware update or board modification. But the sticker is a lie, and WFCO and NuCamp know it.