2023 400 with the 400 ah Lithium mod. Victron Inverter.

elbolillo

pthomas745 said:

Ok, new question for the new 400 battery setups.

How are the solar controllers wired to the battery? Are they wired to the battery distribution studs? 

I can see the little distribution box in the 1 battery setup, but I can't seem to spot it in the 4 battery setup.

I see some smaller red wires on the closeup of the 4 battery setup, but I'm guessing those are the power cables for the shunt and the Mulitplus dongle.

Owners on the FB page are asking about where to add a solar port for portable panels, and it would seem to me the easiest spot would be in the passenger side compartment where the battery switch is.  (Whatever connector they might like to use).  But: where would the wiring for the solar connector go?

I don’t know about the factory install but I can tell you how I did mine. The controller that cares for the rooftop solar I have wired to my distribution blocks. I have a solar port for portable panels installed in the Nautilus cubby. The solar controller is installed close by. This way my external cables can come up through the bottom of the Nautilus area and I don’t have to leave the hatch doors open. Here are images of the install.

pthomas745

I saw this photo on the FB page yesterday when someone asked what it was.  Very nicely done.

So: the cables to the batteries go where exactly?

elbolillo

Cables from the solar charger can be seen at the top of this photo. Negative goes to the distribution block directly. Positive goes through a fuse (upper left side of photo) then to the distribution block. 

SLJ

elbolillo said:

I have a solar port for portable panels installed in the Nautilus cubby. The solar controller is installed close by. This way my external cables can come up through the bottom of the Nautilus area and I don’t have to leave the hatch doors open. Here are images of the install.

I like your idea for the controller for the portable panels. I mounted my Renogy controller in the front tub along with a switch as I have to be able to see the display. I may just change it to a Victron and move it inside.

RTWCTS

pthomas745 said:

Ok, new question for the new 400 battery setups.

How are the solar controllers wired to the battery? Are they wired to the battery distribution studs? 

I can see the little distribution box in the 1 battery setup, but I can't seem to spot it in the 4 battery setup.

I see some smaller red wires on the closeup of the 4 battery setup, but I'm guessing those are the power cables for the shunt and the Mulitplus dongle.

Owners on the FB page are asking about where to add a solar port for portable panels, and it would seem to me the easiest spot would be in the passenger side compartment where the battery switch is.  (Whatever connector they might like to use).  But: where would the wiring for the solar connector go?

I know you're asking about the 4 battery setup, but here is where the lines terminate from the Victron on my 1 battery setup. The hot (red) wire goes to the WAGO, becomes green through the fuse and terminates at this stud.

The neutral (white) wire terminates at the busbar here, behind the WFCO.

Couldn't the second Victron be added at any point? It would still be in parallel to the rooftop Victron. Multiple charge sources just need to be in parallel, just like the rooftop Victron and charge that comes from WFCO or TV... right? 

pthomas745

@rtwcts Thanks for that update, there is still much more to learn about. 

The "SMP" is a circuit breaker? And the battery stud distribution block is there next to it?

bergger

It depends on how you want to wire your solar port.  I don't have a new 400, it's a 2021, and I added mine in the area you mentioned, by the luggage door.  I did this since it is simply wired directly to the battery and not through the victron controller.  My panels have their own controller so this was the easy way to go.  Wiring it directly to the battery and you don't need to worry about how the factory controller is wired to the battery.  It was easier for me to by a goal zero charge controller, $107, and simply plug it into my portable panels than try to wire my solar port into the factory controller. 
However, if you want to run the wires into the solar controller you may want to do it on the drivers side near where the fridge is located.  For the past few years, at least, the solar controller was under the larger fridge and was accessed by removing the large storage drawer beneath the fridge.  That may be a tricky install with the tight space but I'm sure it could be done.  However a call to NuCamp may be needed to find out exactly how the controller is wired to the battery.  

elbolillo

You really will need an additional controller if you want to add additional external panels. On the ‘23 Tab 400 the existing roof panel is 180w. The current controller is a Victron MPPT 75/15 which handles up to 200w of solar. I added a 100/30 to allow for extra external panels to be used. The original 75/15 is fused and then I have it running to my positive and negative distribution bars. The 100/30 is wire the same way. This way even if the battery disconnect is off I am still able to charge the batteries via the solar panels. The solar chargers can be shut off via software.

Horigan

elbolillo said:

You really will need an additional controller if you want to add additional external panels. On the ‘23 Tab 400 the existing roof panel is 180w. The current controller is a Victron MPPT 75/15 which handles up to 200w of solar. I added a 100/30 to allow for extra external panels to be used. The original 75/15 is fused and then I have it running to my positive and negative distribution bars. The 100/30 is wire the same way. This way even if the battery disconnect is off I am still able to charge the batteries via the solar panels. The solar chargers can be shut off via software.

It really depends on which external panels you use.  Some have controllers built in, some don't.  That would dictate how it's wired to the battery, with our without an additional controller.

One thing that makes these mods easier to implement that I'm not seeing in these posts is the addition of bus bars for the positive and negative side of the system.  The stock single post distribution block gets crowded quickly with these mods.  You should not have more than two or three ring terminals on a post...

elbolillo

Distribution bars absolutely make this much easier.  I have 4 post positive and negative bus bars. 

elbolillo

Horigan said:

elbolillo said:

You really will need an additional controller if you want to add additional external panels. On the ‘23 Tab 400 the existing roof panel is 180w. The current controller is a Victron MPPT 75/15 which handles up to 200w of solar. I added a 100/30 to allow for extra external panels to be used. The original 75/15 is fused and then I have it running to my positive and negative distribution bars. The 100/30 is wire the same way. This way even if the battery disconnect is off I am still able to charge the batteries via the solar panels. The solar chargers can be shut off via software.

It really depends on which external panels you use.  Some have controllers built in, some don't.  That would dictate how it's wired to the battery, with our without an additional controller.

One thing that makes these mods easier to implement that I'm not seeing in these posts is the addition of bus bars for the positive and negative side of the system.  The stock single post distribution block gets crowded quickly with these mods.  You should not have more than two or three ring terminals on a post...

Yes, if they have the controller built in the then, you do have an additional controller. ;-)

if you try to connect different capacity panels to the same controller you may run into some issues and the lowest watt panel will dictate the input wattage. 

SLJ

Horigan said:

It really depends on which external panels you use.  Some have controllers built in, some don't.  That would dictate how it's wired to the battery, with our without an additional controller.

One thing that makes these mods easier to implement that I'm not seeing in these posts is the addition of bus bars for the positive and negative side of the system.  The stock single post distribution block gets crowded quickly with these mods.  You should not have more than two or three ring terminals on a post...

The Buss Bars make it a lot easier. Just installed new batteries and used these this weekend on my 320.
I wouldn't mix different panels on the same controller though.

RTWCTS

pthomas745 said:

@rtwcts Thanks for that update, there is still much more to learn about. 

The "SMP" is a circuit breaker? And the battery stud distribution block is there next to it?

Sorry for the belated response @pthomas745. The SMP is a breaker with a stud on either side. The battery distribution block is in the battery compartment on my single battery setup. It was actually in the way and wouldn’t allow me to add a second battery in an east-west arrangement. I ended up going north-south instead of relocating the block.

Edit to add- You can see the block in the first photo in this discussion
Completed-Added a 2nd Battery, Victron SmartShunt and 2nd MPPT. 2023 T@B 400 (vanillacommunity.com)

pthomas745

Thanks for the update.  Someone else recently mentioned the upgraded 50 amp breakers in the newer trailers. (Older models had only 40 amp Gloso breakers.)  One other question: on a picture in the other thread:  There are smaller gauge wires attached to the batteries.  The smaller red wires appear to be power cables to the shunt.  There is a white wire coming in from the right side of the photo: where does that cable go? Battery heating setup?

RTWCTS

@pthomas745 for simplicity, here is the photo from the other discussion. The battery in the front is the one I added.

The referenced white wire goes from the battery to the Alde unit (factory work). The Red positives are a bit harder to see. Here is an enlargement/crop of them.

The small gauge red wire from the back positive terminal goes to the SmartShunt. It was the location I understood where the wire should be located from the SmartShunt manual.
The small gauge red wire from the front positive terminal goes to the battery heater on/off switch in the cubby area next to the bed. This was a factory installed wire, originally on the back battery. I moved it to have fewer connectors on the positive terminal of that battery. It returns at the battery heat enable screw on the back battery. I added the jumper wire to the front battery heat enable screw battery to complete the circuit. 

ChrisFix

@elbolillo @JCB001 et al...

In this photo of the nuCamp factory installed Multiplus, they run a ground from the Multiplus case to the smartshunt, and jumper it across the smart shunt...My question is why? 
Why not just connect it at the battery ground terminal directly or just to the battery side of the smartshunt? 
And shouldn't it really be connected to the chassis ground bar and not the battery?

Also, they seem to have tapped a ground lead to the back of the case to the Alde system - does anyone know where on the Alde they are grounding it?  On the current one battery setups, I've seen the photo with this same lead directly connected to the battery ground post, but no pic of where on the Alde it is going. I'm certain this is to fix the electrolysis issue some are seeing (like Airstream has done). 

And lastly, it seems the battery hold down straps are a thing of the past in the factory setup (and the upgrades pictured in this thread). Anyone see a reason to still use them if redoing the battery system?

elbolillo

@ChrisFix I don’t know why they run the ground to the smart shunt. I discussed this with Battleborn directly and they told me I didn’t need to ground the Multiplus.

The wire running back to the Alde I will have to check on it. I just hooked it back up the way it was installed after I did my upgrade.

As for battery straps, I don’t see much of a need for them. On my 4 battery setup the batteries are snug.

ChrisFix

@elbolillo
Thanks for your reply. Between the weight of the batteries and snugging them in the battery box, I also don't see a need for straps, but my 2021 T@B had both AGM batteries strapped down. I guess nuCamp also decided this wasn't necessary.
I remain very curious about the chassis grounding on the Multiplus however. I know on my 400, nuCamp didn't ground the Victron Solar Controller (which also has a ground lug)...and lots of photos of installed systems I see online forego that ground as well - so it raised my interest when I saw the grounding on nuCamp's installation of Multiplus, particularly in the way they did it.

otr_320

Lots of opinions of about grounding.  I wouldn't make a final decision based solely on one NuCamp installation or a single tech at Battleborn.  Suggest a consensus from a number of reputable sources before making a final decision.

Me, I can't imagine installing a Multiplus, which can output potentially fatal amounts of 120vac, without a hefty ground wire connecting the Multiplus chassis to the bare copper primary ground bus wire that exits the 120vac side of the WFCO power center.  12vdc is relatively safe and forgiving.  120vac not so much.  

Typical Google search ref grounding:

Grounding works by providing a path of least resistance for electric current to flow into the ground. When an electrical system is grounded, any excess current flows through the ground instead of the human body or other objects. The ground acts as a safety net that can absorb excess current and protect people from electric shock.

ChrisFix

@elbolillo
Not trying to tell you what to do, just passing along what I've found in a days research on the multiplus case ground question.
The overwhelming consenus is the case ground is at a minimum best practice...
The other unresolved question that I have seen answered both ways is if you require a 4/0 cable as ground (per Victron the case ground needs to be no more than one size smaller than the largest conductor used). Many people say that only applies to the AC conductor size, not DC, others state reasons why it needs to be the DC conductor size.
I wish there was a clear answer to this, but you might want to look into the case ground question for yourself.
In the one photo of the nuCamp install, it seems like they're using an AC sized conductor (10 AWG?), but I still don't understand the wiring path they used.
A reputable YouTube channel that specializes in Van builds (and is a Victron specialist) says to use the DC sized case ground - again, I don't know if that is correct or necessary. I have no idea how I'd run a 4/0 ground in our T@B setup.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+explorist+multiplus+install

And I looked at the install manual for the AIMS and Renogy 3000 watt inverter/charger and they say to use the same size conductor as the AC conductor for the case ground...but that is a different product, so our mileage may vary!

rh5555

I would vote (strongly) for the Victron recommendation.  If your converter is powered by 12AWG wire, use 14AWG for your ground bond.  You only will ever need this bond if something goes terribly wrong inside your converter and a power lead becomes disconnected and touches something it shouldn't.  The ground bonding ensures that the 120V breaker will trip.  The 120V circuit is the only part of the setup that is remotely hazardous.  I would discount anything that an "expert" or "specialist" says if they suggest the ground bond needs to be equivalent to the 12V power leads.  This indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject.

otr_320

rh5555 said:

If your converter is powered by 12AWG wire, use 14AWG for your ground bond.  

I would highly suggest using the same (or even larger) gauge wire for the ground circuit (as the hot/common primary circuit).   

If the primary circuit has more current handling capability than the ground circuit, the excess current (in the event of an accident) will be passed through the subject being electrocuted.  Not a good thing.

ChrisFix

otr_320 said:

rh5555 said:

If your converter is powered by 12AWG wire, use 14AWG for your ground bond.  

I would highly suggest using the same (or even larger) gauge wire for the ground circuit (as the hot/common primary circuit).   

If the primary circuit has more current handling capability than the ground circuit, the excess current (in the event of an accident) will be passed through the subject being electrocuted.  Not a good thing.

The logic behind a ground conductor sized one wire size smaller than the hot/neutral is that it only carries the current for an instant before tripping a breaker or fuse.
I agree with you that I'd just use the same size, but the downsized case ground seems acceptable in the various governing codes.

otr_320

ChrisFix said:

The logic behind a ground conductor sized one wire size smaller than the hot/neutral is that it only carries the current for an instant before tripping a breaker or fuse.
I agree with you that I'd just use the same size, but the downsized case ground seems acceptable in the various governing codes.

Electrical codes can vary significantly from one jurisdiction to another.  Some locales are much more safety oriented than others.

In terms of the application being discussed here, I would simply say there are zero safety issues if a ground circuit has an equal or higher current capability than the primary circuit.

There are a number of qualifications and assumptions that enter the discussion if a ground circuit with less current capability than the primary circuit is used.

When it comes to safety I try to error on the side of caution . . . or, in this case, take the path of least resistance..

ChrisFix

@JCB001 @elbolillo and anyone else who's installed a Victron Multiplex:
Did you modify the T@B 400 factory chassis grounding in any way?
Did you ground the Multiplus case, and if so, with what gauge wire and connected to what on the T@B side?

I asked Creed at nuCamps Tech Support and he responded that they use a 10 AWG equipment ground from the Multiplus, which in photos, seems they connect it to the load side of the Smart Shunt. Nate of the Explorist Life site, who is a Victron distributor, insists it needs to be a 4/0 cable for the equipment ground, which seems unneccesary. nuCamp's install can be seen in this photo of a factory setup (the white wire on the Smart Shunt connected to the equipment ground stud of the Multiplus):



I just ordered my Multiplus 3000 to go with the LiTime 460AH battery I got a few months ago, and would love to get the benefit of your experience installing the Multiplus.
Thanks everyone!!

rh5555

The Multiplus II case is connected directly to the 120V ground input and output terminals.  One of these terminal should connect to the chassis.  I'm using 10AWG wire for this.  There is no benefit in duplicating this connection.

Are you planning to run all the trailer 120V via the Multiplus? 

ChrisFix

rh5555 said:

The Multiplus case is connected directly to the 120V ground input and output terminals.  One of these terminal should connect to the chassis.  I'm using 10AWG wire for this.  There is no benefit in duplicating this connection.

Are you planning to run all the trailer 120V via the Multiplus? 

@rh5555
I need to clarify my question, I'm asking about the DC grounding. The Victron Multiplus (and also the Victron Solar Controllers) have DC case ground posts...and are supposed to be grounded to the DC grounding system of the T@B.
And yes, I'm going to wire the 120V AC output of the Victron Multiplus directly the the 120V input of the WFCO...with 10 Gauge Romex, as used by nuCamp.

rh5555

The Multiplus II does not have a DC case ground post, just a case ground post which is connected internally to the 120V ground terminals.  The DC output floats unless you want to connect the negative side to the chassis.  There is no obligation to do this.  It seems that NuCamp decided to do this, per your earlier post.

To be clear, are you going to use the original Multiplus or the Multiplus II?  My information is all based on the Multiplus II.

ChrisFix

@rh5555
I'm using the Multiplus 12/3000/120, not the Multiplus II.
But I think the grounding is the same for both, in that they have a case ground stud - which I assumed was for the 12V side, but now understand it is for the neutral to case switching the Multiplus does via a ground relay. And while the Multiplus 3000 doesn't specify a wire size for the equipment ground, the Multiplus II manual specifies "The ground conductor should be at least 4mm²" (see below).
So the 10 AWG nuCamp uses seems right.

From Multiplus 3000 manual:
The MultiPlus is a safety class I product (supplied with a ground terminal for safety purposes). Its AC input and/or output terminals and/or grounding point on the outside of the product must be provided with an uninterruptible grounding point for safety purposes.
An additional grounding point is located on the outside of the product.

The MultiPlus is provided with a ground relay (relay H, see appendix B ) that automatically connects the Neutral output to the chassis if no external AC supply is available. If an external AC supply is provided, the ground relay H will open before the input safety relay closes. This ensures the correct operation of an earth leakage circuit breaker that is connected to the output.
─ In a fixed installation, an uninterruptable grounding can be secured by means of the grounding wire of the AC input. Otherwise the casing must be grounded.
─ In a mobile installation (for example, with a shore current plug), interrupting the shore connection will simultaneously disconnect the grounding connection. In that case, the casing must be connected to the chassis (of the vehicle) or to the hull or grounding plate (of the boat).

From Multiplus II manual:
This product is a safety class I device (supplied with a ground terminal for safety purposes). Its AC input and/or output terminals must be provided with uninterruptible grounding for safety purposes. An additional grounding point is located on the outside of the product.
The ground conductor should be at least 4mm².

elbolillo

Looking at the images that I have seen of the NuCamp install of the Multiplus 3000w inverter, they appear to run a wire from the chassis ground of the Multiplus over to the load side of the SmartShunt.