2023 400 with the 400 ah Lithium mod. Victron Inverter.

enzo86

BTW for the Batteries they were $2800 out the door shipped for 920AH.  These were a little larger than I wanted but the 300AH ones were also about 1.75 inches too long (13.75 out of 26.25) to fit side by side and would have had to be mounted in the same configuration. I would have gone with a single 460 if they could handle more than 200 amps on the BMS.

B0atguy

elbolillo said:

@B0atguy I did my own installation using essentially the same equipment NuCamp uses on their 400ah package. I added a Victron MPPT 100/30 and external port as well. My cost for equipment and materials was around $5200.

This setup has been solid for us and we no longer lug our Honda 2200 generator with us.

I love the Battleborn Batteries, even though they do come at a premium. The tech staff at Battleborn are very helpful and responded promptly to all questions. Although if I were doing my install now, I would consider 2 of the 300ah Epoch LiFePo4 batteries. They come in at about the same weight as the 4 BB, but would have an additional 200ah.

Agreed on the Battle Born quality and cust. service , reputation. I already had 2 of the Smart Heated Renogy's from our previous Jayco. I spent a LOT of time trying to find the biggest battery bank I could fit in the factory location for 4 batteries . In the end , I could never find any manufacturer sizes that I could fit more than 400ah . The battery bay is a pretty narrow 7" .  I did check the Epoch 300ah , and they were too wide to fit in the battery bay , by about 1/2" . Didnt feel like cutting up that nice NuCamp battery location. 
I can add a couple more batteries in the outside accessible storage bay if needed , but I think I am ok for now. 

Hope I will be ok by putting all my "eggs" in one Renogy basket ! lol 

B0atguy

enzo86 said:

making progress, DC side done and tested, man 4/0 is a real pain to work with... Need to work on the AC side next along with installing the Cerbo Screen etc. @B0atguy how hard was it to get to that Area above the fridge to mount the display ?

Install is looking great  @enzo86

As far as working with the panel above the fridge . It was pretty easy . Popped out the Jensen , and had a look inside before anything was cut/drilled . Its just an "empty" panel on the back side. LOTS of wiring mess behind that panel , so be careful before you cut ! Also , if you look at my Renogy inverter remote switch ........that is the LOWEST you will be able to cut into the panel . There is a hard shelf above the fridge that I almost cut into . It sits higher than you would think . Measure twice , cut once is the motto here ! As for wiring , I never removed the fridge . All the wires drop out behind the fridge right down by drawer under the fridge. Pull out the drawer , and you have access to all the wiring, hvac ducts , etc. I was nervous I would have to follow the factory wire bundle through a few holes in the back panels , but its totally open space behind the fridge.

Will attach some pictures of that panel area .........good luck ! 

enzo86

Holly Cow that Factory wiring for the stereo pains my wire management OCD.

enzo86

Well, bad news, connected AC in on the Multiplus 3K and set the max AC input to 5 Amps, Set the max charging output to 6 amps DC.  All fine but only 80 something watts.  Bump the DC charge rate to a very low 7 amps DC brings the watts up right about 100w AC then it trips the GFCI.  I tried this on 3 different GFCI outlets at 3 different locations all trip charging DC at anything higher than 6 Amps DC.  I even disconnected the AC out on the inverter and put it in charger only mode, same results.  I dont have the option to use a non GFCI outlet in our storage place.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/17907/gfci-question-for-owners-with-multiplus-ii-3000w-inverter-charger

I found this thread but there are really no answers, is this just a RMA back to Victron ?

elbolillo

enzo86 said:

Well, bad news, connected AC in on the Multiplus 3K and set the max AC input to 5 Amps, Set the max charging output to 6 amps DC.  All fine but only 80 something watts.  Bump the DC charge rate to a very low 7 amps DC brings the watts up right about 100w AC then it trips the GFCI.  I tried this on 3 different GFCI outlets at 3 different locations all trip charging DC at anything higher than 6 Amps DC.  I even disconnected the AC out on the inverter and put it in charger only mode, same results.  I dont have the option to use a non GFCI outlet in our storage place.

https://tab-rv.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/17907/gfci-question-for-owners-with-multiplus-ii-3000w-inverter-charger

I found this thread but there are really no answers, is this just a RMA back to Victron ?

Are you sure all the settings on the Victron are correct? I plug my Tab into shore power on a 20amp outlet that is GFCI with the AC input limited to 20amps. Never have had any issues.

enzo86

They seem correct to me, I lowered the AC IN limit to 5 Amps, and I cant get the DC charge over 6 Amps, This is less than 100 Watts AC, which is less than 1 Amp.

Config Below:

rh5555

If my experience with the Multiplus II is anything to go by, you'll get no joy from Victron.  You may have to do some more diagnosis to be sure it is the Multiplus that is faulty, start by disconnecting everything except AC in and your connection to your batteries. If it still trips when charging your batteries and you bought the Multiplus from someone who'll take it back, I'd swap it out (or return it and buy a new one elsewhere) and hope for better luck with your next unit.  I wouldn't go the warranty route.

KK1L

I would make sure the GFCI wiring is correct. Look closely at the neutral and ground wiring...they should only be common at one point (if at all). Is there a hot / neutral swap at the outlet? Dunno...just spitballing

enzo86

Just to close the loop on the issues I was having, after trying a few other GFCI outlets it seems the ones at our storage area are just waay overly sensitive.  So for now we just disable the charger and power assist in the app and let the Multi go into pass through mode, we then use the onboard charger that came with the Tab.  Not Ideal but it works for now.

ChrisFix

Can I get confirmation from anyone with a factory installed Multiplus 3000 (or who has laid eyes on one) that nuCamp is using 2/0 105c wire and 300 Amp fusing?

While Victron says you need the equivalent of 4/0 wiring, I believe that isn't really needed for the T@B 400 power draws. The 2/0 Windy Nation wire I have is rated for 325 Amps.
Thanks everyone!

elbolillo

ChrisFix said:

Can I get confirmation from anyone with a factory installed Multiplus 3000 (or who has laid eyes on one) that nuCamp is using 2/0 105c wire and 300 Amp fusing?

While Victron says you need the equivalent of 4/0 wiring, I believe that isn't really needed for the T@B 400 power draws. The 2/0 Windy Nation wire I have is rated for 325 Amps.
Thanks everyone!

I have not seen with my own eyes a NuCamp install, but can confirm that Battleborn recommended 2/0 wire and 300 amp fusing for my DYI install.

ChrisFix

elbolillo said:

ChrisFix said:

Can I get confirmation from anyone with a factory installed Multiplus 3000 (or who has laid eyes on one) that nuCamp is using 2/0 105c wire and 300 Amp fusing?

While Victron says you need the equivalent of 4/0 wiring, I believe that isn't really needed for the T@B 400 power draws. The 2/0 Windy Nation wire I have is rated for 325 Amps.
Thanks everyone!

I have not seen with my own eyes a NuCamp install, but can confirm that Battleborn recommended 2/0 wire and 300 amp fusing for my DYI install.

Thanks @elbolillo.

Yoshi_TAB

Hi,

Sizing wire  inverter (and fuse) for an inverter depends on the size of the inverter and potential max. draw.  But if you know for sure you will never draw the max. capability of the inverter, you can down size everything.

If it's a 3000W inverter and assuming 90% efficency  in the inverter ; in most cases

3300W/12V=275 amp continous draw

Usually you size fuse about 25% above the max, so not to get nuisance pops

275 amp x 1.25= 343amp  or rounded to the closest available fuse size.

Then you size wire for that amp draw.  But is also depends on the length of wire (round trip) in your circuit.  You can go to the many wire sizing charts.  Here is one from Blue Sea Circuit Wizard - Blue Sea Systems

Here's a source I follow for sizing wire and fusing for inverters.

Calculating Inverter DC Wire & Fuse Size | DIY Solar Power Forum (diysolarforum.com)

ChrisFix

Thanks @Yoshi_TAB.
I understand all that, but wanted to confirm nuCamps install of the Multiplus 3000 (which is 3,000VA, but only 2,400 Watts/250 Amps by the way). I believe they use 2/0 wiring which should be okay for the T@B400 power requirements.

ChrisFix

Just to close the loop on my question, I reached out to Creed at nuCamp's Tech support and he provided the following info:

"So we use 2/0 Wire and a 400amp fuse for the 4 batteries."

So that's the definitive answer as to how nuCamp is wiring the DC side of the Multiplus 3000 in the T@B 400.

I've installed mine with 2/0 welding cable and 300 Amp MRBF fusing and have spent 5 weeks camping in Colorado this May and June without any issues what so ever, although now I'm wondering if I should up the fusing to 400 Amps to prevent any future potential nuisance tripping. I have a single 460AH LiFePO4 battery rated at 250 Amps continuous BMS.

Illini83

Hi,

As I poured through the TAB Users Group threads on Battery System Upgrades, multiple people seemed to have implemented battery system upgrades very similar to what I *think* I might need. I hope you have some time to read my post and give me your recommendations.

Background:
I just purchased a new 2023 TAB 400 BD with the standard, single Lithium battery setup. (I saw the TAB 400 at the RV show last Feb. I got serious in early August and I wanted the 2023 version because I wanted the Baltic Birch interior). 

I *think* I need to add additional battery capacity to my 400 to facilitate dry camping at National Parks and Forests. As I read posts from several of you regarding adding more Lithium batteries to your 400s, I realized I need to define my expected TAB 400 usage in order to make decision on my battery, inverter/charger, additional solar charging and MPPT upgrade path.  


Battery Load: 
Devices when camping without shore power:
- Isotherm CR130EL refrigerator 
- Alde 3020 for radiant heating in colder weather
- the standard ceiling fans
- all lights
- water pump
- occasional use of inverter power for hair dryer (on shower days for my wife)
- phone and computer charging
- I need the ability to camp in National Parks/Forests (no shore power) for 4 days max stretch with the following External Temperature and Solar considerations:

Solar: 
- Realistically, when camping in NPs I don't think you can guarantee having a sunny location (You take what you can get when making the reservation).

External temperature range at camp ground (without shore power):
(I assume the fridge is a big consumer of amp-hours, so external temp is a big factor)
- daytime temps at 90 F max and 50 F min
- nighttime temps not over 75 F not under 35 F
(I'm retired and past the point of having to take camping trips when my kids are on summer break. I'm NOT going to camp at hot locations in the US during the summer without shore power.)

External temp range for towing:
- daytime temps at 100 F max
I include this information because a likely scenario is where we a on the interstate in the summer, with very high daytime temps. Based on UG threads I have read, the fridge compressor might be running continuously. My truck has a tow package with a 220 amp alternator. I have no idea if the charging capacity during towing is enough to keep up with the amperage consumed by fridge compressor running continuously. Any insight is appreciated.

PLEASE challenge any of my assumptions on Battery Load and Temperature, if you think I'm missing something (you are probably right).

I have the resources to add additional lithium batteries, a suitcase solar array and the associated Victron equipment, but I hate throwing money away on overkill for my expected, realistic load. (I'm a thrifty, retired engineer. haha). 

Questions:

1. Based on your experience, what would be your upgrade path?
2. I've seen all your photos in the UG threads. I don't have a lot of experience with this type of circuitry, but I'm and engineer and I can usually figure this stuff out with a little online research. So, I have confidence in my ability to do this myself. BUT, do any of you guys have a circuit diagram for the upgrades that you implemented? (I've seen the materials list that one of you guys posted -- Thanks!)

Thanks for any thoughts.

enzo86

To be on the safe side I ended up using 4/0 and a 400 amp main fuse.  If you take a look at "Explorist Life" on YouTube they go into a lot of detail on fusing, wiresize, crimping etc and almost all of it is based on the 3k multiplus.

rh5555

@Illini83 - one quick piece of information regarding towing in the heat.  We do this frequently and our solar panels keep up with the fridge - usually the sun is shining when it's hot.  I've never worried about using the TV to charge the TAB batteries; you can take that worry off your list.

Regarding power usage - your hair dryer may be too much for your inverter - you've only got 1200W.

Judging from your description of use, I think you need at least one more battery.  The simplest solution is to buy a second battery identical to your current one, connect them in parallel and call it good.  In our experience, 200Ah is enough for 4 days with a similar usage and no Solar.  Your only downside is that it will take a long, long, long time to recharge your batteries once depleted.  This is unacceptable if you're recharging with a generator, in which case you would need to update your converter, too.

I did the lithium upgrade from original AGM batteries and went crazy with new Multiplus 3K and 460Ah of battery.  Happy to share, but I think this would be overkill for you.

ChrisFix

enzo86 said:

To be on the safe side I ended up using 4/0 and a 400 amp main fuse.  If you take a look at "Explorist Life" on YouTube they go into a lot of detail on fusing, wiresize, crimping etc and almost all of it is based on the 3k multiplus.

Yes, I've watched just about all of their videos. And you can't go wrong with 4/0 and 400 Amp fusing.
But the reality is we are a 30 Amp system, not 50 Amp (which is what Explorist always wire for), which is why 2/0 works just fine. The Multiplus may have a surge capacity of 6000 watts, but nothing in our campers use that kind of power, and we're going to pop the main 30 Amp breaker at 3600 watts, long before melting the 2/0 DC cables. If the WFCO had a main 50 Amp breaker, I'd have wired with 4/0 as well.

Illini83

enzo86 - Thanks for the Explorist Life tip. I've got a lot of YouTube time ahead of me...  rh5555, I'm glad you caught me on the hair dryer wattage. I'm pretty sure my wife considers using a hair dryer a Minimum Viable feature of my system -- Looks like a larger inverter will be required...

enzo86

On a side note: We did 4 days of dry camping this week in 85 degree heat, we were able to run the AC from 9pm to 8am and it used about 30% of our 920AH, We were able to charge during the day at close to 900w. It did require that I play solar tracker a few times during the day.

pthomas745

@Illini83 There are tons of hair dryers that top out around 700 watts that will work fine with a 1200 watt inverter. Buy a different dryer.  Read the wattage label. Most of the "hair dryer" stories that come up usually involve the newer dryers that top out at 1875 watts!  Nice dryers, but 1875 watts?! So, choose carefully.

The 2 way fridge is always the largest use of power in the trailer.  The 2 way power use is pretty well known in this group with many threads discussing it.  The chart below ( and the all important footnotes) give us a good baseline on what to expect. 418 watt hours comes out to around 34 amp hours on my calculator. 

The addition of the 100 amp hour lithium batteries has improved the "how many days can I boondock" by more than 50 percent (without solar).  There 90 are "about" amp hours available from a 100 amp hour lithium, compared to 40 amp hours from a Group 24 lead acid battery.  Add solar to this mix, and you would only need to replace 40 amp hours to keep up with the fridge and most of the other trailer functions. Even if you managed to replace 20 amp hours a day, the 100 amp hour lithium can easily handle several days of boondocking.

What you do not add to your plan sheet is portable solar.  The downfall of "solar on the trailer" is..."but I want the trailer in the shade!" Being able to move a panel to a more advantageous spot makes a big difference in adding that 20 amp hours a day that you might need.

rh5555

The addition of the 100 amp hour lithium batteries has improved the "how many days can I boondock" by more than 50 percent

This may be true for the 320 TABs, but not the 400's.  We have almost halved the number days of boondocking (without solar) compared to the 2x6V AGMs.  My experience is camping in shaded Pacific Northwest and we got through most of our 225Ah of AGM battery in 4 days.  Our fridge (Norcold) is probably less efficient, but I would still maintain (and @pth0omas745 numbers support this) that at least one more battery is needed if you don't anticipate any significant solar charging during a 4-day trip.