Alde Thoughts

RCB

Perhaps the most discussed subject on the forum is about Alde - how to operate, trouble shoot, fluid change, etc, etc.
Consider, that this hydronic system was born in Europe where hydronic heating is the norm in residential applications. In North America however, our norm (now) is forced air systems. Why because they are less expensive to install and maintain. As well they can include air filtration and humidity control.

I wonder from a builder perspective, if it is time to abandon this complex system in favour of a simpler system. Consider the Cool Cat ac unit installation includes a duct system. Truma has a forced air system (120V/Propane) that is ducted and includes a demand hot water option. So perhaps a redesign of the NuCamp heating/cooling/domestic hot water installation should be considered. The Alde system with its miriad of operator and maintenance issues by comparison seems un sustainable. Thanks for reading.

Denny16

Whilst forced air heating was the norm in North America, quite a few homes built in this century switched to under floor hydronic heating.  Another contender is Heat Pump heating, using convectors instead of forced air.  Hydronic heating uses less energy once the room/house has reached the desired temp., and is able to maintain That temp without drafts, or hot/cold spots which is typical,of forced air heating/cooling.  Some systems use air circulation fans, but they do not create a stream of air movement which is typical of forced air.

When we purchased our TaB, the biggest selling point is the Alde heating system.  Running small fluid transfer tubes in walls or under floors is much less expensive than running a maze of large duct systems, required of a distributed forced air system.  I would not buy a house with forced air heating/cooling either.

My first RV, a Mobil Vacation home (think a small 30-ft Park Model type trailer), had a forced air wall type heater in it.  When the temperature was set to be comfortable whilst standing, it was cold when you sat or laid down.  The heat was concentrated by the heater and colder when you moved to away from the front area where the heater was located.  I ripped this unit out, and replaced it with a sealed convection heater, which distributed the heat  ore evenly from floor to roof. 

The Alde does the same, proving a nice even heat in the TaB 400, without cold/hot spots.  Yes, it take a bit longer to get heated up (this process can be k creased using propane mode or propane/elect combined), but the heat is even, and no dust blown around or circulated around as a ducted system does.  

Each has is maintenance routine, and most forced air ducted systems have their maintenance routine, and require annual filter replacements.  The Alde maintenance is not that difficult.  Ideally, once should vacuum dust the area around the convectors and the convectors as part of the bi-annual fluid change.  Our system was installed in Jan 2018, and has been trouble free, changing the glycol transfer fluid as required, and last time round, the TaB voids and convectors were vacuumed out to remove dust and debris that had collected during the previous 2.5 years.
 Cheers 

db_cooper

@RCB

For those that camp exclusively with electric hook ups, I agree that there are better options that are not as complex. For those of us that camp in cold weather without hook ups the Alde is hard to beat due to it's low electric needs.  Plus in a small enclosed space it's much quieter than any forced air system. 

manyman297

I’ve been in a van with the Truma Combi and it was actually very comfortable and quiet.

I love the Alde but it does seem to be troublesome for many people. We’ve been lucky so far with no issues but seeing so many others having problems I do wonder if our time will run out. Or are we just seeing the negatives because that’s when people reach out for help online?

gulfarea

In my320 at least I can get to the complete system, if I have to replace any one of the radiators but in a 400 repairing those regularors could be a real challange! Art

bergger

I'm torn on the subject.  While I love our Alde for the efficiency, even heat and almost silent heat I dislike  it for the glycol changes that need to be done every two years.  I refused to pay the exorbitant rates dealers are charging for this service so I learned to do it myself.  But I still don't like having to do it and feel it's too large and too frequent of a maintenance requirement for a heating system that costs roughly $3000.  There are also times I dislike it for the long time it takes to heat the cabin.  Radiant heat is one of my favorite types of heat but living in an area where it gets cold often there are times it would be nice to heat the trailer up quicker.  But that is just being picky.  

I also own a Truma vario heater and love it.  It is basically the forced air furnace without the water heater side to it. The Vario does not require any complicated, expensive and potentially messy maintenance like the Alde.  And for a forced air heater it is quiet.  Ours is completely exposed in our truck topper camper and while on high it certainly is loud, way louder than the Alde but quieter than a suburban heater.  But when switched to night mode it is remarkedly quiet for what it is and not hard to sleep through.  If it was mounted in a cabinet in a trailer I can imagine it being much quieter.  

Would I trade our Alde for a Truma?  At this point I probably would say no.  But next year when I have to change out the glycol again I might change my mind.   And if NuCamp switched to the Truma Combi it would not break my heart.   Who knows if our Alde ever breaks I may install a Combi comfort plus over another Alde.  

kottum

I hate unreliability when we are traveling 1000 miles from home.  A long history of absolutely dependable forced air camper heaters has spoiled us.

If our Alde system stops heating when we are on the road, can we get help from Alde, Nucamp, or dealerships?  Maybe, but don't depend on it.

Their ignorance of the corrosion issue is absurd.  If the damn aluminum convectors corrode no matter what, give us convectors made of a different material, for example.  

Binghi

Change the glycol every other year and enjoy the quiet efficient warmth of the Alde. Trailers are costly (purchase price, fuel demand, storage, insurance) and high maintenance (axles, brakes, tires, winterizing, cleaning, ongoing repairs and mods). Semi-annual glycol change is another maintenance item in a long list. It’s difficult to be comfortable in a trailer in cold weather and the Alde system meets that challenge well.

Mickerly

I've been down the "slide in camper" and "class C" route with forced air furnaces.

Alde radiant heat is very comfortable. In Europe where the Alde system is common, the costs of maintenance is low. We just live in a place where only NuCamp and the high end Airstream trailers use this system.

Routine fluid changes plus a little vacuuming, and you have a great system.

BrianZ

I would not want to give up our Alde for its silent operation that keeps us nice & toasty without any draft inside on cold nights.

I do believe that Nucamp could make glycol changes much easier for DIY folks (or those who live a long distance from any dealer service facility) by equipping T@Bs with a 3-way valve to allow pushing out old glycol with distilled water rinse & refilling using an inexpensive electric pump.  I have this mod installed in the hose between the glycol pump & floor drain, so it can push fluids through the Alde, hoses, convectors, expansion tank & out the floor drain..

Then, by switching the valve position & closing floor drain, it can backfill the hose between valve & tank to fill tank to desired level.  Works great.  Maybe it could also make glycol changes more available at dealers without the complicated & expensive special glycol pump.

Maple_Geek

Very interesting mod @BrianZ. Thank you for sharing.
Would you mind sharing the list of parts you used to make this mod? I think I could figure it out if I was in front of my camper but it's stored away until April.

When using this, all you do is operated the Alde pump in continuous mode (without heat being applied) ?

BrianZ

@Maple_Geek , click on the highlighted text in my post to see all mod details, including the references to parts sources at the end.  It does not use the Alde built-in pump, but a separate immersion pump to inject the glycol or rinse water into the system, as shown in the photo above.

Maple_Geek

@BrianZ thank you. I missed the link in your message. Thanks again!

pak

I think the Alde is the crown jewel of my 320. The more I learn about the ins and outs of the system the more comfortable I am with the Alde. This forum has been so valuable as a learning tool. There are many clever and industrious people on here willing to help. This made my learning curve less precarious. I like the Alde because it is quiet and heats the t@b very well.

fstop32

Agreed @BrianZ, like you some of the mods I've made around the Alde are designed to make fluid changes simpler and more DIY friendly.  If nuCamp is not planning to ditch the Alde system then they should consider building in some of the mods that have been done to make it easier to properly maintain the system.  It wouldn't take much additional expense on their part.  Those changes would help both the professional maintenance folks and the DIY'ers.  Anything they do to simplify the process is a feather in their cap.  You don't really need an expensive proprietary pump process to do Alde maintenance, gravity and/or a very cheap hand pump do just fine.

jkjenn

My question is how you can be sure the hand pump method is getting all of the fluid out?(Genuinely asking, not criticizing)

I have to wonder if they do not make it easier because it is intended to use a mechanical pump because it is the best way to protect the system.

My concern is that some if the DIY approaches people take will lead to downstream issues in a couple of years. 

pthomas745

We are all waiting for the same answer.  Owners who have completely run distilled water through the Alde before refilling certainly have all the glycol out.  In my DIY process, (no water flush) I'm reasonably sure I got 95 percent of the Century out, and refilled with Century. 

When the glycol change process is designed to be expensive, confusing, and convoluted, that is the real danger to the Alde.  There are now so many disaster stories about poorly trained and misinformed dealer service techs...that is the real danger to the Alde.

Certainly any DIY owner could make a mistake...but the process is a simple fluid transfer that Alde should go out of their way to make even easier.

AnOldUR

jkjenn said:

My question is how you can be sure the hand pump method is getting all of the fluid out?

The best way that I can think of is by a visual look at a turkey baster glycol sample after running the Alde for a while. Below is a sample of fresh Rhomar and a sample of the fluid drawn from my system after an exchange. I was dissatisfied enough that I drained the system, blew it out and replace the glycol a second time. After doing this, a sample looked almost identical to the new glycol.

Sadly this will not help you know if you've successfully flushed your system before adding the new glycol, but will give you confidence that it was done properly after complete.

ScottG

Expanding on the previous comment, if I were to attempt a switch from Century to Rhomer, I would flush the system with distilled water as many times as needed to ensure that what was draining out was 100% clear. Fill, flush, drain, repeat--the process would be the same regardless of the type of pump or the particular method used.

Frankly, it sounds like a lot of work, and a lot of water. Which is why I'll probably just stick with the Century.

bergger

It took me about 3 hours or just under to complete my Century to Rhomar flush and fill.  And I could have done it quicker but for a slight error on my part.  I used 15 gallons of distilled water and the Rhomar looked just like it did coming out of the bottle.  I opened and collected fluid from all the bleeder valves/hoses and the expansion tank to color test the new fluid.  When I replace the Rhomar with new it should be much quicker.   I still have a love hate relationship with the Alde system.  

manyman297

I have to agree with some here that it’s a love/hate relationship with the Alde. After experiencing the Truma Combi I would probably dump the complexity of the Alde. It’s A LOT of infrastructure for such a small camper. I think the Alde is more justified in larger campers where evenly distributed heat is more important. The Truma is so quiet and just requires small ducts to be run. No glycol swaps. In the 400 you might even gain some width up by the dinette if you omitted the Alde (because of the convectors). 

jkjenn

IMHO, it isn't worth the risk to such an expensive component to cut corners, so I choose to let it be done professionally and use the Truna recommended Rhomar. 

I love the Alde and the benefits outweigh the maintenance cost, to me. The efficiency of LP use, low power draw, and nearly silent delivery of heat are all amazing.

bergger

The Truma Combi is super quiet for a forced air unit and even more efficient on both gas and electricity than the Alde.  As far as the Alde being quiet in my experience that is not usually the case when running it on propane in cold temps, say in the 20's or below.  Even with the high elevation mode turned on it wakes me up almost every time with the exhaust freight train noise.  I need to try to insulate the exhaust pipe to try to eliminate that noise and vibration when it starts up.  My experience with the Truma Vario, not Combi, is in night mode it is much quieter in very cold temps than the Alde and does not wake me up.  Again a love hate for me.  If I had my choice I'd get rid of the Alde for a Truma unit.  

GatorEgg

My next trailer will not be a NuCamp partly due to the Alde.  It provides no benefits to us.  We don’t camp in the cold weather.
Having owned multiple other brand trailers with much simpler systems .

manyman297

We went from a tent camper with the archaic suburban furnace to the Alde…which was night and day obviously but like @bergger mentioned, it tends to wake me up…the pump kicking on does it for me along with the exhaust noise. 

elbolillo

Having owned both a ‘21 320 and now a ‘23 400, we have not found the Alde to be noisy at all. For us it is just a low pitch hum that doesn’t wake us up. I hear the fridge cycling more than the Alde kicking on.

kevmon

I haven’t had to deal with maintenance yet, but appreciate all of these comments. So far, it’s quiet and efficient. More so than on my last trailer. The trauma system sounds interesting, but I just bought the trailer, so not planning a refit. 

So is the complexity people refer to about maintenance? Otherwise, it seems fairly straightforward to me with a thermostat and all. 

ScottG

My Alde is in it's tenth season and--at the risk of jinxing myself--it has performed flawlessly on both electric and propane. Functionally, it's a fine system for both hot water (which I use daily), and cabin heat (which I use rarely).

Maintenance is nothing more than changing the glycol. It's not particularly complex, but it's a bit of a chore and requires some attention to detail. If you live in Ohio or Indiana or near a rare competent dealer and paying top dollar for (presumably) professional servicing gives you peace of mind, then go for it. But that's not really an option for many of us. So we do it ourselves... or just don't do it. I personally suspect the recommended two-year glycol change cycle is a bit conservative, but I'm a bit of a gambler. You do you.

That said, I do think this is a very complex non-user-serviceable system for what is supposed to be a simple pastime. Ten years in, I don't expect my Alde to last forever. If/when it finally pees the bed (literally), I'm going to be in for a major DIY project or road trip, probably at considerable expense. Will I replace with another Alde? If there's a simpler option that will serve my needs, probably not.

manyman297

When you think about what’s involved to make the Alde system work, simplicity isn’t the word I’d attach to it. It’s a great system and we haven’t had issues with it, but it has many potential failure points vs a forced air system. 

You’ve got a continuous loop of glycol contained within several yards of plumbing and any leak or weak point means the entire system could be out of commission. Forced air is simple. Maybe not as quiet but after experiencing a Truma that may be up for debate. 

Homebodyatheart

I’m in my eighth year with my 320S and still absolutely love my Alde! I have had one part fail two years ago. It was a blown fuse on the circuit board. I never go to my RV dealer for anything Alde, but contact the nearest Airstream dealership. They use Alde in their higher end models and know the system! Not all Airstream dealers will work on another manufacturer trailer but a quick call to their service department will let you know. 

riseandshine

Just got back from a weeklong trip boondocking in Wyoming. After yet another 2AM session of lost heat, shivering wife, and glycol fluid all over the floor on a 24F night, we are DONE with the Alde system. We have had recurring intermittent leaks and other problems with this overlay complex and failure prone system starting a year after we bought it in 2020. I look forward to the opportunity to learn all about our T@B's heating and ducting system by ripping out the Alde and replacing it with a Truma Combi or equivalent.