Lead acid batteries

Simbionic

Is it dangerous to replace AGM batts with lead acid in 2021 tab 400 boondock?

pthomas745

An AGM battery is a lead acid battery. Just made in a fancier way.

The "danger" in any lead acid setup is it should be vented if in an enclosed space.

What battery setup do you have now?

Simbionic

Sealed, factory installed. 

I’m looking at batteries that aren’t sealed. That have caps where water can be added as neeeded. 

Simbionic

Aren’t the NuCamp factory batts lead acid?

Sharon_is_SAM

I think the AGM batteries were used in the 400 as they are not easily accessible, so maintenance free is a good thing.  Not sure if that area is vented.  If not, you would need to add a vent if you intend to use a non-sealed battery.

webers3

Simbionic said:

 

I’m looking at batteries that aren’t sealed. That have caps where water can be added as neeeded. 

Why? That's going back to antiquities.

Simbionic

So, for clarification….i want to replace batts with “sealed” AGM batteries (im not switching to lithium. )

Sharon_is_SAM

No problem replacing with AGM.  You can do a single 12V battery or 2 6V batteries in series.  No absolute need for lithium.

elbolillo

Simbionic said:

So, for clarification….i want to replace batts with “sealed” AGM batteries (im not switching to lithium. )

Why not switch to LiFePo4? Half the weight, much more capacity, and depending on the brand, competitive pricing.

Simbionic

What’s involved in switching to lithium? Lifepo4 I’ve read there’s some kind of adaptive addition??

pthomas745

Take out the old batteries.  Put in the new lithium battery.  Set the solar controller to the lithium settings. Done.

The issues:  the older converters in the trailers will "only" charge a lithium battery up to about 85 percent.  Some owners go through the time and expense to replace the converter.  Some owners simply let the solar controller do a "complete" charge.  Some owners wire in separate lithium chargers to use when they want a "full charge" when on shore power.  There are many different ways to connect an inexpensive  lithium charger to the trailer's batteries. 

The "stock" batteries in a 400 were 225 amp hours, of which about 135 were "usable" amp hours.  There are many 230 amp hour lithium batteries that will fit in the 400 battery space.  Besides weight, the main advantage is the large increase in available amp hours.  With a lithium, you can use "about" 90 percent of the amp hours, which gives you about 200 "usable" amp hours from a 230 amp hour battery.

Many owners have made this switch in all the the Tabs, and, like elbolillo said, there are many well reviewed batteries that will work well in a 400.

SLJ

Do not replace an AGM with a lead acid and put it in and enclosed space. Lead acid need to be well vented and can be ruined if you run them below 50%. 
A lithium battery costs almost the same as an AGM. Put that in and let your solar charge it to 100%. It weighs half of what the AGM does, will give you almost twice the usable power, can be run below 50% and last much longer. Good 100ah Lithium batteries are under $300 now.

manyman297

Another advantage (one that I learned on this forum) is that the voltage drop-off of lithium doesn't happen until it's maybe 80% discharged. With AGMs the voltage gradually goes down as it's discharged. What that means in the real world is if you run your AGM battery down your fridge and Alde may stop working even though you have some available amp hours. And even before that happens you'll notice annoying things like lights flickering as your water pump runs.

With the cost of cheaper well-made lithium batteries plummeting it doesn't make sense to stay with lead acid chemistry. You're actually throwing money away in performance and available "juice". 

I'm installing two LiTime batteries in our 2021 400 and the only thing I need to do differently is wiring them in parallel. You can either make new cables or buy cables specifically for this purpose pre-made on Amazon. It couldn't be any easier. 

As a side note...I can't believe how heavy the OEM Harris 6v batteries were. 69lbs each! The new lithiums are 21lbs each! About 100lbs of weight saved. Slightly higher tongue weight but my TV can handle it. 

AnOldUR

Just to clarify, AGM / sealed batteries will off gas in certain harsh conditions.. It’s not a common occurrence, but they still need to be installed with venting provided.

Aubrey

I need to replace my Renogy 200ah AGM (long story), but I thought I would need a bunch of changes in the wiring or the converter to use lithium. (2018 T@B 400 without factory solar)..  Maybe I should consider 2 lithium batteries instead, since I have a 100w solar suitcase I could use to charge them?
I would love to access those amp hours. My goal would be a day or two of dry camping with the solar deployed as needed.
I feel pretty dense when I read about this stuff, HA

pthomas745

@Aubrey we do tend to make it sound more complicated than it really is.  We have many extremely skilled owners here. 

I mentioned above the larger 230 amp hour lithium batteries that are available that would almost double your usable capacity compared to your 200 amp hour AGM.  There are also lithium batteries these days that mimic the size of a "stock" trailer battery, the "Group 24" battery size.  Each of these 100 amp hour batteries, wired properly, would also provide almost 180 "usable" amp hours.  (The wiring is a little more "complex", but not hard.)

Will Prowse gets many mentions when lithium batteries are discussed.  He has many different battery recommendations, and many owners here have used the batteries he lists here.

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html

This is the Will Prowse You Tube video on the "Group 24"  sized lithium battery.    (Only a little geeky, but you will learn a lot about what you are buying with a lithium battery!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR5MkFRSucc

Your 100 watt solar panel may need to be updated with a lithium compatible solar charger.  So, check what your solar controller is capable of. Depending on how much power you use: a 100 watt panel may be just a bit small for this larger size battery bank.

bergger

So far after just over 4 years our AGMs are still going strong.  However I anticipate having to replace them in the next couple of years and will drop in two 100ah lithiums.  @manyman297 just off set the lighter batterys and heavier tongue weight with some good cast iron cookware in the back compartment!  It'll give me an excuse to buy some more when we make the switch! 

Aubrey

Thanks for the links!! I have a MTTP controller on my solar panel that should work if Im not mistaken. I recently bought the Battery Tender Plus 3-stage charger trying to maintain my AGM, but I see info that seems to say this is not a good charger for the LiFePo battery.
     I am looking at the 

PowerUrus 12V 200AH LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Rechargeable Battery

as a replacement for my renogy, seems like a no brainer for a bit more cash and a likely more reputable company. In our T@B 400 we just have the fridge, lights, fan, and occasional ALDE heat to use.

Aubrey

the more i read it sounds like this battery paired with one of their chargers and my solar panel would improve our dry camping experience. The battery management system is pretty advanced, self heating, bluetooth....
free shipping too. $600 all told
Really leaning here

pthomas745

The battery is fine ( it is listed on the Will Prowse battery recommendations page).  What year 400 do you have?  What solar controller do you have installed?  The Victron controller (if you have one) would have to be reconfigured to charge the new lithium.

Look at your Battery Tender Charger.  Some of these are "lithium compatible".  Even if it isn't, any lead acid charger will charge a lithium, but....only to 85 percent.  If I was stuck somewhere having to use only a "lead acid" charger...I wouldn't hesitate to use it.  The thing to look for in these types of chargers is the "Amp rating" of the charger.  I have discovered my Noco Genius 3 amp charger is perfectly nice....but that 3 amp rating means to put 20 amps back into any battery would take 7 hours.  So, if you do decide to use a "stand alone" charger, something larger would be indicated.  (I think some owners have wired in more than 30 amp chargers for their lithiums, but I'd have to find the threads!)

Aubrey

2018 T@B 400
no factory solar, i use a 100w suitcase when possible
MTTP controller appears to have a 20amp charge rate
Battery tender plus appears to have pretty low charge amps but the Powerurus charger is not to expensive, $40
Battery has bluetooth BMS
Still fighting for a refund from renogy for my 1.5yr old battery that will not perform at all now

Simbionic

2021 Tab 400….
looking to go Lithium. Is it better to go with one 12V (do I need a 200 amp?) or two 6V (100 amp)?
are there space considerations with the 12V?
Where have you found the best source for LiTime? That the same as LiFePO4??
This is all very new and confusing I must confess. 

pthomas745

In your 400, the battery setup is 225 amp hours.  About 50 percent of those are "usable" amp hours, so that comes out to about 112 amp hours.  A single 200 amp hour battery will increase your "usable" amp hours to almost 190.

It does not matter if you have a "single" 200 amp hour battery or a pair of 100 amp hour batteries.  Wired properly, the 2 batteries will provide the same amp hours as the single 200 amp hour battery.

But: keep it simple.  Many owners have installed a single 200 (or 230) amp hour battery.  It will be much easier to install.  Many owners have installed them in the 400's, and there are several threads.  Grab your tape measure and go back and take a look at your battery area.  Your biggest challenge is getting the old batteries out!

LiTime is a battery brand.  LiFePO4 is the battery "chemistry". LiTime have been pretty consistent sellers for the last several years, are well reviewed, and seem to be innovating constantly.  Many Tab owners have installed them.  (I have one).

In the YouTube link above, there is a Will Prowse video review of the newest LiTime model.  Take a few minutes and watch him as he saws into it and discusses what you are actually buying.

LiTime is available from the company web page, and is also available on Amazon, etc.

This is the Will Prowse "battery recommendation" page.  Click on the links and they will take you either to the manufacturer's page, or the Amazon page. 

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html

Yes: batteries are confusing, period.  They always have been for RV owners, so you are not alone in that dilemma.  Ask questions, anything you can think of. 

scott14

Thank you for this thread, very educational.  A few questions about changing from a 230 amp hour AGM, to lithium in our 2019 T@B 400,  no solar:

1.  Do we also need to upgrade the converter to get to 100% charge level?

2.  Does a lithium battery need to be removed prior to winter storage (upper midwest)?

3.  If removed during winter storage,  is a trickle charger required?

4.  I have seen some lithium batteries advertise  Bluetooth.   What features does that bring?  In other words does that have the same reporting functions of a shunt?

Thank you!

elbolillo

scott14 said:

Thank you for this thread, very educational.  A few questions about changing from a 230 amp hour AGM, to lithium in our 2019 T@B 400,  no solar:

1.  Do we also need to upgrade the converter to get to 100% charge level?

2.  Does a lithium battery need to be removed prior to winter storage (upper midwest)?

3.  If removed during winter storage,  is a trickle charger required?

4.  I have seen some lithium batteries advertise  Bluetooth.   What features does that bring?  In other words does that have the same reporting functions of a shunt?

Thank you!

1. If you don’t have solar, the WFCO converter will not charge the battery to 100%. If solar is not on your list you can get a Victron Blue Smart charger to top it off before traveling
2. Each manufacturer will have their recommendations for storage. 

3. No. Following the manufacturer’s recommendation you would charge the batteries to a certain level, disconnect, and store. Again, this may vary by manufacturer.
4. Bluetooth will allow you to monitor the charge of the battery

scott14

Thank you for the information.

Aubrey

I now have the PowerUrus 200ah LiFePo4 and the 14.4v 10amp charger ordered, pulled the trigger, summer is passing by.
My confidence in the product is good thanks to the videos and forum.
The customer service after purchase we will see, but I'm coming from Renogy so it will be a likely upgrade. Anyway I feel armed with all the info I need to treat the battery exactly as recommended, so I wont ever need customer service. 
I think this will add to the perceived value of our solar suitcase since we will have a deeper well of amp hours to work with.
Feels nice to upgrade a little.
Thanks for everyone's time, again.

manyman297

@bergger My wife has enough cookware already! Don’t give her an excuse to get more 

Aubrey

Charged the new PowerUrus battery with its charger overnight. Charger started off pretty slow and really warm, but I was assured this was normal, today it was at 14.3v when installed, holding about 13.4v installed while the Norcold refrigerator runs at 5.2 amps according to the Roypow app.
Time to put the camper back together and do some real world testing.