Solar upgrade for 2024 320 Black Canyon

Joel

We just upgraded from a 2016 Outback to a 2024 320 Black Canyon and are having difficulty keeping the battery charged while boondocking. The new rig has a single 100ah Battle Born with either 190 or 380 watts on the roof (I cannot get a straight answer out of NuCamp on the panel size, so if anyone knows for sure, please pass it on). We love the upgrade, but even with conservative power use, the battery has run down to zero twice -- once last Christmas when sunlight was meager at best, but again last week after three sunny days. I'm pretty sure we're just using more power than we're taking in, thanks largely to the 12v fridge. I think we need more charging capacity, so I plan to buy a portable panel, probably around 200w. Here are my questions: 1. Do you solar warriors agree that I need more charging rather than another battery? 2. Can I run the additional solar charging through our existing Victron MPPT 100/30 controller? 3. Would I gain anything by installing a second 100ah battery? Thanks a million.

HappyWanderer

Hey Joel.

On a Black Canyon you should have two solar panels, one on the front and one towards the rear.   Each one is 190  watts for a total of 380.  Assuming your charge controller is set up properly, that should be plenty to keep up with your daily needs under sunny conditions.  I too have a Black Canyon (mines a CS-S but the solar config is the same) and the fitted solar panels were able to bring my battery from 60%  back up to 100% by mid day.   I would take a look at the settings on your charge controller to make sure it is configured correctly and verify what it is telling you against what the battery monitor is telling you - they should be pretty close.  TBH, it sounds like you're not charging at all.  3 days is what I would expect a 100ah battery to last without charging and a small compressor fridge running.

Anyways, to answer your questions:

1. Yes you need more charging, but, like I said above, I don't think your system is working properly.  Once that is sorted you might be ok.  That said, I would still look at portable panels as they will allow you to recharge quicker if you've had a few sun-less days and they allow you to park the trailer in the shade and still capture the sun with the portable panels.

2.Possible, but, not straightforward.  The 100/30 is rated for 440 watts so I think you would need to switch out which panels you use.  I believe a better approach is to add a second controller.  The Victron 75/15 mppt controller is not that expensive and can handle 200W.

3.Yes.  A second battery, although probably not necessary, would allow you to last longer without good sun.  It would also allow you to to stick in a reasonably sized inverter if you feel the need.   Like you I currently only have the one 100ah battery and am considering a second.  This will be my first season with the camper so I will see how it goes.  If I have to use my portable power station more than twice I will pick up a second battery before next year.

Long winded I know, but, I hope it helps.

Gomers2

I've been reading that it's best not to mix panel size/brand/type on the same controller. I got a second controller for the suitcase and it is wired in parallel to the existing controller (becomes active only when the panel is connected at the Nautilus port). Many suitcase panels come with an onboard charger; if so just make sure it's lithium compatible. Or get something like this 
Renogy Wanderer Li 30A 12V PWM Negative Ground Solar Charge Controller Solar Panel Regulator w/ Temp Sensor Function Fit for Lithium, Sealed, Gel, and Flooded Batteries, Wanderer Li 30A https://a.co/d/gDBe15c

We like the portable option because you can get it into the sun when the trailer is parked in the shade. 

However I do agree with @HappyWanderer that you need to check your settings and set up before you buy anything else. You said you were out for three days that had some decent sun and still ran out of power? That's not my experience. We Crank that fridge and have plenty of power on sunny day trips. This week we were out for a 48 hour trip that was very cloudy the entire time, lots of rain and set up in a heavily shaded site. After 48 hours we were down to about 10% left. That was with very conservative usage (fridge on level 3, then level 2 and minimal need for light at this time of year) and virtually no charging. You're not just experiencing a low state of charge number, but are in fact out of power?

Cherokee

Portable solar panels are great as you can adjust them to follow the sun and you can park your trailer in the shade and place your panels in the sun. Yes, going from a 3-way to a 2-way refrigerator takes more juice. A lot of people up-grade to 200a/h of storage and add additional solar panels. You've gained a thermostat in your refrigerator and LED lights on the bottom of your trailer but lost your wood ceiling and single panel cabinetry along with the ability to cool with propane.  

Basil48192

Agree with everything stated above.  This is such an informative forum. 
For a quick reference, solar panels provide about 17.25 watts of power per square foot so, if you measure your panels, you can calculate their capacity pretty easily.
Another point of reference.  We camp off-grid almost exclusively.  I always run the 12v refrigerator, lights, pumps, etc.  On average, I use about 22 amp/hours overnight.  I have a 105 watt panel on my roof and a 200 watt suitcase.  With decent sun, I get back to100% by mid afternoon. 
I love the rooftop panel, but we camp in the woods a lot so my rooftop unit is often in the shade.

Horigan

It's not clear which frig the OP has.  If it's a 3-way, which consumes more 12V power than a 2-way, then the system config may be marginal. 

The way to tell if you need more battery or more solar is check when the battery gets fully charged on a sunny day.  If you reach 100% sooner in the day, like late morning/early afternoon, then you need more battery capacity.  If it's taking longer to charge to 100%, then you need more charging capacity. 

In general though, you want to have the same, or similar, numerical value between battery capacity in Ah and the solar capacity in W.  You're 100 vs 380, so that would imply you could use more battery capacity

Marceline

Joel said:

We just upgraded from a 2016 Outback to a 2024 320 Black Canyon and are having difficulty keeping the battery charged while boondocking. The new rig has a single 100ah Battle Born with either 190 or 380 watts on the roof (I cannot get a straight answer out of NuCamp on the panel size, so if anyone knows for sure, please pass it on). We love the upgrade, but even with conservative power use, the battery has run down to zero twice -- once last Christmas when sunlight was meager at best, but again last week after three sunny days. I'm pretty sure we're just using more power than we're taking in, thanks largely to the 12v fridge. I think we need more charging capacity, so I plan to buy a portable panel, probably around 200w. Here are my questions: 1. Do you solar warriors agree that I need more charging rather than another battery? 2. Can I run the additional solar charging through our existing Victron MPPT 100/30 controller? 3. Would I gain anything by installing a second 100ah battery? Thanks a million.

Are you cooling your fridge from shore power before you set out on your trips? The initial cool-down can consume quite a bit of power. Especially if it's sunny, it seems like you should be able to generate enough power to keep up.

What kinds of numbers are you seeing on the Victron Connect app?

elbolillo

Horigan said:

It's not clear which frig the OP has.  If it's a 3-way, which consumes more 12V power than a 2-way, then the system config may be marginal. 

The way to tell if you need more battery or more solar is check when the battery gets fully charged on a sunny day.  If you reach 100% sooner in the day, like late morning/early afternoon, then you need more battery capacity.  If it's taking longer to charge to 100%, then you need more charging capacity. 

In general though, you want to have the same, or similar, numerical value between battery capacity in Ah and the solar capacity in W.  You're 100 vs 380, so that would imply you could use more battery capacity

OP has a 12v fridge.

Joel

Thanks for all the answers, and your questions as well. You've given me much to ponder and research.
Happy Wanderer, I finally found the battery settings and changed them to the recommended levels. None appeared to be too far out of whack, but we'll see over the next few days whether the charging improves. My Black Canyon has two wide racing-stripe panels, each about 12 inches by 120, so roughly 20 sf of cells. If Basil48912 is correct, that's about 255w. Which still seems like it should be plenty, but I will probably add 200w more. I had seen NuCamp tout their solar system as plug and play, but it sounds like a second, smaller charger would be smart. 
Gomers2, the first time we ran to zero was right around Christmas, and we were camped in a shady spot in the SoCal desert, so clearly we weren't getting much charging. The second time was just last week in sunny Colorado, though again we parked in the shade. Both times, the battery dropped a little the first day, a little more the second, and then hit zero on the morning of the third. 
Cherokee, if I could have found a 3-way to replace the one in our 2016 Outback, I would still have that rig. But apparently no one is making 2cf 3-ways any more. Hence the new trailer and its new power demands.
Marceline, yes, we cool it down for a day or more on shore power. 
Wish me luck....

Marceline

@Joel
Are you using the Victron Connect app to monitor solar power production (Victron controller) and to monitor net power in/out of your battery (SmartShunt)?

Horigan

elbolillo said:

Horigan said:

It's not clear which frig the OP has.  If it's a 3-way, which consumes more 12V power than a 2-way, then the system config may be marginal. 

The way to tell if you need more battery or more solar is check when the battery gets fully charged on a sunny day.  If you reach 100% sooner in the day, like late morning/early afternoon, then you need more battery capacity.  If it's taking longer to charge to 100%, then you need more charging capacity. 

In general though, you want to have the same, or similar, numerical value between battery capacity in Ah and the solar capacity in W.  You're 100 vs 380, so that would imply you could use more battery capacity

OP has a 12v fridge.

Understood.  Both the 3-way and 2-way refrigerators have a 12V option.  The 3-way frig is an absorption refrigerator, whereas the 2-way is a compressor refrigerator.  The 2-way compressor is more efficient with 12V power than the absorption refrigerator.  This would factor into how much power is being consumed.

elbolillo

Horigan said:

elbolillo said:

Horigan said:

It's not clear which frig the OP has.  If it's a 3-way, which consumes more 12V power than a 2-way, then the system config may be marginal. 

The way to tell if you need more battery or more solar is check when the battery gets fully charged on a sunny day.  If you reach 100% sooner in the day, like late morning/early afternoon, then you need more battery capacity.  If it's taking longer to charge to 100%, then you need more charging capacity. 

In general though, you want to have the same, or similar, numerical value between battery capacity in Ah and the solar capacity in W.  You're 100 vs 380, so that would imply you could use more battery capacity

OP has a 12v fridge.

Understood.  Both the 3-way and 2-way refrigerators have a 12V option.  The 3-way frig is an absorption refrigerator, whereas the 2-way is a compressor refrigerator.  The 2-way compressor is more efficient with 12V power than the absorption refrigerator.  This would factor into how much power is being consumed.

NuCamp doesn't offer a 3-way on the 2024 models.

donmontalvo

Joel said:

We just upgraded from a 2016 Outback to a 2024 320 Black Canyon and are having difficulty keeping the battery charged while boondocking. The new rig has a single 100ah Battle Born with either 190 or 380 watts on the roof (I cannot get a straight answer out of NuCamp on the panel size, so if anyone knows for sure, please pass it on). We love the upgrade, but even with conservative power use, the battery has run down to zero twice -- once last Christmas when sunlight was meager at best, but again last week after three sunny days. I'm pretty sure we're just using more power than we're taking in, thanks largely to the 12v fridge. I think we need more charging capacity, so I plan to buy a portable panel, probably around 200w. Here are my questions: 1. Do you solar warriors agree that I need more charging rather than another battery? 2. Can I run the additional solar charging through our existing Victron MPPT 100/30 controller? 3. Would I gain anything by installing a second 100ah battery? Thanks a million.

Purchased my new 2024 320S Boondock Black Canyon when I retired in Oct 2024.

Came with 2x180W solar panels (flexible, on curved roof) and a 100ah LiFePO4 heated Battle Born battery.

I spent my first few weeks learning how it is all put together and configured. Didn't take long to learn the Victron component settings needed to be adjusted. I went from the battery not charging correctly and dying every night...to the battery charging properly and never dying.

I learned that the 2x180W curved solar panels are not very good on sunny days, but very good on cloudy days (compared to flat panels). I added a budget 100W panel (hanging it off the roof rack, so it's almost vertical), which required an additional MPPT (since using one MPPT charger for multiple unmatched solar panels limits charging level to the least rated panel), and now I get a good balance of charging whether it is sunny or cloudy.

I decided to add a second battery once I got the power settings sorted out. so now 2x 100ah LiFePO4 = 200ah total.

IMO the most important "mod" was my buying a Champion 2500 fuel generator (201490)...there are fuel/propane models. It saved me during my first month or two, while getting up to speed on solar and power...and on a couple occasions when it went into the 90s unexpectedly.

Enjoy your new camper.

PS, the Bugout 130W solar panel on my Jeep keeps my Jeep's 100ah LiFePO4 battery topped off when I'm not traveling...the alternator keeps it topped off while driving.

Joel

Thanks again for the information and input on my solar issues. Thanks for chiming in Don, that helped explain a few things. For the last few days I have been experimenting at home, paying closer attention to VE readings on both the shunt and charger, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I started with the trailer in the carport, figuring that was similar to a cloudy day of boon docking. I turned the fridge down to 3 (out of 7), and while I didn't use lights or the water pump, all the parasitic draws were on. During that three day period the solar yield was ranged from 10 to 40wh, P max was 5-15w, and V max steady around 35. The battery level declined slightly every day, from 13.4 to 12.4. The yesterday I moved the trailer into full sun and can see what a huge difference it made. I got 1.04kwh yield, P max 171w and V max 41.8 volts. 

But the shunt reading confused me. Around noon yesterday it said "consumed Ah" was 0Ah, even though the trailer had been "boondockiong" in my driveway for four days, and a few  days before it read -25Ah. This morning at 6:30 a.m. I checked again and overnight the battery had dropped to 13.07v and consumed Ah was -27Ah.
Does that seem normal? I can see how the solar charge varies, but how can I tell what my usage is, and more specifically, what I can do to reduce that usage?

One last thing. Don, after reading about your inverter, I realized that I may have a similar power source. My new Tacoma hybrid has a 2400w inverter built in, with an outlet in the bed. It only works when the engine is running, but it seems like I could turn on the engine and power up my trailer battery directly off the inverter rather than through the engine's alternator. What do you think?

skibug

The “consumed Ah” number is how much power has been consumed since the last time the battery was fully charged. 

skibug

Once the battery is fully charged that number should reset to 0. 

donmontalvo

Joel said:

Thanks again for the information and input on my solar issues. Thanks for chiming in kDon, that helped explain a few things. For the last few days I have been experimenting at home, paying closer attention to VE readings on both the shunt and charger, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I started with the trailer in the carport, figuring that was similar to a cloudy day of boon docking. I turned the fridge down to 3 (out of 7), and while I didn't use lights or the water pump, all the parasitic draws were on. During that three day period the solar yield was ranged from 10 to 40wh, P max was 5-15w, and V max steady around 35. The battery level declined slightly every day, from 13.4 to 12.4. The yesterday I moved the trailer into full sun and can see what a huge difference it made. I got 1.04kwh yield, P max 171w and V max 41.8 volts. 

But the shunt reading confused me. Around noon yesterday it said "consumed Ah" was 0Ah, even though the trailer had been "boondockiong" in my driveway for four days, and a few  days before it read -25Ah. This morning at 6:30 a.m. I checked again and overnight the battery had dropped to 13.07v and consumed Ah was -27Ah.
Does that seem normal? I can see how the solar charge varies, but how can I tell what my usage is, and more specifically, what I can do to reduce that usage?

One last thing. Don, after reading about your inverter, I realized that I may have a similar power source. My new Tacoma hybrid has a 2400w inverter built in, with an outlet in the bed. It only works when the engine is running, but it seems like I could turn on the engine and power up my trailer battery directly off the inverter rather than through the engine's alternator. What do you think?

Best advice I got early on was to join the Victron Energy page on Facebook. I posted my camper solar/battery info there and over two months learned a lot from very talented people, many work at Victron, and tons of professional installers, electrical engineers, etc.

For my 2021 JLUR (almost bought a Tacoma!), before I decided to get my 320S, I had Main Line Overland build an off grid kit in the JLUR. So it has a 1000W inverter, a 30A DCDC charger, 100ah LiFePO4, and a folding 130 Bugout solar panel. Back then I spent in my iKamper roof top tent, which had power run to it from the kit. Bought the 320S, sold the iKamper TTT, and the off grid power kit is my backup.

https://donmontalvo.com/2022/03/27/main-line-overland-lifepo4-ftw/

The LiFePO4 batteries in my 320S and my JLUR get charged when I am on the road. Haven’t installed a doohicky to disconnect JLUR power when boondocking, for now I just disconnect the tow cable.

I don’t have experience with powering camper batteries through your Tacoma’s inverter. I would think a DCDC charger might be best for that?

bjn2

Joel said:

One last thing. Don, after reading about your inverter, I realized that I may have a similar power source. My new Tacoma hybrid has a 2400w inverter built in, with an outlet in the bed. It only works when the engine is running, but it seems like I could turn on the engine and power up my trailer battery directly off the inverter rather than through the engine's alternator. What do you think?

An inverter isn't very efficient. I added a Bluetti Charger 1 to our tow vehicle along with a second solar controller and solar port. The Charger 1 can be set to match the voltage that the Victron solar controller can handle, so I can charge the trailer's battery while towing or running the engine. The added solar port lets me use folding solar panels that I can position for maximum solar exposure. The Charger 1's adjustability lets me use it to charge our portable power stations. I like portables for their versatility vs. installing an inverter in the trailer.

AnOldUR

skibug said:

The “consumed Ah” number is how much power has been consumed since the last time the battery was fully charged. 

I don’t believe that this is true. I think the consumed Ah is related to the percentage state of charge. It’s not a running total, rather it’s the amount that your battery capacity has been lowered. In real time, draws will make this number bigger at the same time inputs (such as solar) will make it smaller. 

In other words, if you have a 100Ah battery and your percentage state of charge is 75%, then your consumed Ah will be 25Ah regardless of what draws or inputs were made.

Is this correct?

Marceline

AnOldUR said:

skibug said:

The “consumed Ah” number is how much power has been consumed since the last time the battery was fully charged. 

I don’t believe that this is true. I think the consumed Ah is related to the percentage state of charge. It’s not a running total, rather it’s the amount that your battery capacity that has been lowered. In real time, draws will make this number bigger at the same time inputs (such as solar) will make it smaller. 

In other words, if you have a 100Ah battery and your percentage state of charge is 75%, then your consumed Ah will be 25Ah regardless of what draws or inputs were made.

Is this correct?

It's a net number (net of power in and power out). I'm pretty sure that the SmartShunt is programmed to use that net number to calculate the SOC. 

Marceline

Joel said:

But the shunt reading confused me. Around noon yesterday it said "consumed Ah" was 0Ah, even though the trailer had been "boondockiong" in my driveway for four days, and a few  days before it read -25Ah. This morning at 6:30 a.m. I checked again and overnight the battery had dropped to 13.07v and consumed Ah was -27Ah.
Does that seem normal? I can see how the solar charge varies, but how can I tell what my usage is, and more specifically, what I can do to reduce that usage?

At night the solar produces zero power, so if you have anything on in the trailer, consumed aH is always going to show a negative number first thing in the morning. Then, as the solar produces power, that negative number should gradually diminish (as long as solar power in > power being used) until consumed aH gets back down to zero.

"Consumed aH" is actually "net consumption." I agree it's confusing and Victron should improve the labeling. 

That said, -27Ah is a pretty big drop overnight, though. What do you have running in the camper? Is the fridge set to 5 (would cause the compressor to run almost nonstop)?