Honda: Generator - Neutral Bonding

John_and_Kris

Here is a link to an article I read. Not being electrically inclined I wonder if any one has any experience with this  and would it be a good thing to do even if you generator powers the TT. We have a Honda 200i that we plan to use.
http://www.noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/
Many thanks for your advice or comments

ChanW

Nice to see it so thoroughly explained.

Yes, I found that our Progressive surge protector wouldn't work unless I provided that G-N bond, when using our home backup generator with the Tab.

That little adapter is how I fixed it.

It's my understanding that the generator will still work with the RV once the power 'guard' is removed from the system (like my Progressive surge protector), but I don't think that it's as safe with no bonding. I think electrical code requirements specify that the two should be bonded.

John_and_Kris said:

Here is a link to an article I read. Not being electrically inclined I wonder if any one has any experience with this  and would it be a good thing to do even if you generator powers the TT. We have a Honda 200i that we plan to use.    www.noshockzone.org/generator-ground-neutral-bonding/
Many thanks for your advice or comments

leenscottfl

I too am not at all literate in things electrical. But I have a Progressive Industries Power Management System hardwired  in my T@B with a digital readout. This week I purchased a Honda EU200i. When I plugged it into the T@B I got an error reading of E-2 which is Open Ground. Since I am so ignorant I had no idea how to fix the problem. I called PI and the guy I spoke with interrupted me when I told him I had the generator. He knew exactly what I was calling about. For about $18 + SH he is sending me an adapter to plug into the generator that he says will fix the problem. Don't have any idea if this is related to your concerns but there it is.

ChanW

Heh! I guess I saved $18 by making it myself! (It's simple to make...)

Also, some generators come with a bonding strap that can be connected, in which case the adapter isn't needed. I'm surprised the Honda isn't that way.

leenscottfl

Yep ChanW when you are ignorant and not capable of learning something like I am with electricity you have to pay someone who isn't ignorant. It sucks but that's the way it is.

John_and_Kris

Thanks for all the comments I have a surge protector ( portable) always plugged into the power cord for the TT and I have now made that plug so will use it when we use the generator. I am thankful for all your confirmation comments that this is the correct solution.

ChanW

Scott, sometimes it's a lot easier to get someone else to do it! I've got this problem, you see. I have to do everything myself. I end up with no time to do anything!  ho-hum...

But then it's nice to be able to tell the DW how much money I "saved" by tinkering with this or that for an hour or whatever. 

leenscottfl said:

Yep ChanW when you are ignorant and not capable of learning something like I am with electricity you have to pay someone who isn't ignorant. It sucks but that's the way it is.

John_and_Kris

But Chan...do you get to spend the "savings" on some "toys" for you????

ChanW

 

More likely on wine for DW.

Better return on investment.

jkjenn

ChanW said:

Scott, sometimes it's a lot easier to get someone else to do it! I've got this problem, you see. I have to do everything myself. I end up with no time to do anything!  ho-hum...

But then it's nice to be able to tell the DW how much money I "saved" by tinkering with this or that for an hour or whatever. 

leenscottfl said:

Yep ChanW when you are ignorant and not capable of learning something like I am with electricity you have to pay someone who isn't ignorant. It sucks but that's the way it is.

I have scaled back how much I do myself or the last couple of years because of the time involved. Maybe I can do something myself but it isn't always worth my time and effort. There are some things I am glad to do myself, so that I understand them battery like my battery. Stuff, though.

Mr_Mrs_Gnome

I'm with @leenscottfl & @John_and_Kris and a bit risk averse. Sometimes I'd rather shift the risk to a vendor, especially when it may come to voiding warranties.

RZRBUG

If you make one of these "G-N Bonds" yourself, be sure you bond the correct two poles.  The picture in the article mentioned above looks like it may have the "Hot" and Neutral bonded together.  This will cause sparks and blow fuses.  Just be sure you understand enough about electricity to do it yourself, or get someone to who does.  And, stop up the end where the cord would usually go with something to keep the water out.

sabel

Seems just wrong that you have to use one of only two electrical outlets to bond the N & G. Has to be a better way.

RZRBUG

Keep in mind this is only if you are using a power management device between the generator and the T@B.  The device will see it as a bad ground.  I think I read that there may be another way to "ground" the generator, but I don't remember what it was.  I'll check with engineer friend of mine and see what he says.

Nomad

Agree with sabel - Hopefully your friend will have an alt.

ChanW

RZRBUG, are you sure? ;-)   It looks ok to me!

RZRBUG said:

If you make one of these "G-N Bonds" yourself, be sure you bond the correct two poles.  The picture in the article mentioned above looks like it may have the "Hot" and Neutral bonded together.  This will cause sparks and blow fuses.  Just be sure you understand enough about electricity to do it yourself, or get someone to who does.  And, stop up the end where the cord would usually go with something to keep the water out.

RZRBUG

Chan - The article describes the process correctly.  I was just saying that looking at the picture it looked to me like it may have been wired wrong, and that if you make one of these, just make sure it is done right.  And, if it is wired wrong and you plug it into a house outlet to try it out, sparks will fly and breakers will trip.  I'm not making that up but describing actual experience. I'm not sure what would happen if you plug an incorrectly wired one into a generator.  I'm assuming the generator's built-in protections would shut it down.

You can, of course, test all this out.  Place an energy management device, such as the one from Progressive Industries, between the generator and the trailer and see if it will supply power to the trailer.  Soon as weather allows (maybe tomorrow), I'm going to try this out.  I'll run the generator with the Progressive Industries device attached, then run it without the device just to see what happens.

ChanW

You're right RZR, if it confuses you, it should be avoided. Electricity is not something to mess with.

The picture is correct though, and please don't try it wired the other way. Sparks, fuses, breakers, potential fire. Not good.

sabel

PXLated,
I seem to remember you have a Honda generator. What size and how do you use it? Our local Honda dealer is having a sale on them and I'm considering a EU1000I just to recharge the battery when it's too cloudy for the Zamp. Maybe recharge the IT stuff.

Ratkity

I think PXL has the Honda 2000i that has a built in battery charger (charging just one type of usage, I'm sure he uses it differently depending on need). For the charger, you just have to buy the optional cable set accessory. Not sure if he's decided to downgrade to the 1000W though. Does the 1000i have the built in battery charger? It's a nice feature.

If you consider a small generator, I'd recommend a magnetic dip stick. It'll pull out any potential metal shavings that may have been left behind in manufacturing. The oil fill is awkward too and you can also buy an extender thingie that makes your life easier when adding or changing the oil (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00O7AB2BA?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01). Since I have the 2000ia, the link goes to one that fits the Honda 2000W model.

PS I also like the camo-colored cover lol. 

RZRBUG

sabel said:

...Our local Honda dealer is having a sale on them and I'm considering a EU1000I just to recharge the battery when it's too cloudy for the Zamp. Maybe recharge the IT stuff.

Ratkity said:

...the Honda 2000i that has a built in battery charger... For the charger, you just have to buy the optional cable set accessory...

I think this has been mentioned before, but the Honda battery charging feature does not have a built-in regulator.  You have to monitor the charge to keep from overcharging the battery.  If you hook the generator to the trailer, the trailer's converter will regulate the charge.  Or, you could plug a regular battery charger to the generator then connect the charger to the battery.

kybob

Am I following this correctly? I have a hard wire surge protector. If I plug my camper's 30 amp cable into the generator with a 20 amp adapter, I'll get an error message unless I use one of these n-g plugs in the generator's other outlet.

Nomad

sabel - I have the 2000i but if it was verified that the 1000 would run the AC (some say it will) I'd go with that (less weight). In general, the gen stays in the truck unless it's a rainy, bad solar day or I'm doing photo editing and need to keep my computer charged for hours on end. I just plug the 30amp cable into the gen (need adapter) and it charges the battery thru the converter. I charge my devices thru the T@B ac outlets. I do have the battery charging cable and have used that to charge my TV battery the one time it was dead - but, as mentioned, you have to monitor that, better off plugging a battery charger into the gen but that's another thing to haul around.
The exception to leaving the gen in the truck is if I'm going to be in one spot for a week and do a full setup, I'll haul it out even if I might not need it. In general, I live off solar 90% of the time.

mickietucs

If I get a gen 1000, would I need the n-g bonding plug? Or is it for just those of you who have hard-wired your surge protectors? 

Ratkity

T@Bnero said:

here is the link to progressive industries. they make a nice n-g bonding plug
http://www.progressiveindustries.net/#!generator-plug/c1mwy

Great link because of the page comment. If I run my 2000ia companion in parallel with sis' 2000i, I only need one G-N plug.

RZRBUG

As promised, I ran the tests this morning with various configurations.  I understand that there are brands and models that may have internal grounding, and from what I've read, sometimes the manufacturer's own manuals are inaccurate in this regard.  So, the only way to be sure I suppose is to test it.  Here's what I found (As always, your mileage may vary):

1)  Just started the generator with nothing connected.  I plugged a socket tester into one of the outlets and got a reading of Open Ground.
2)  With generator running, I plugged the N-G bonded plug into one of the sockets and got a reading of no error.
3)  I connected the Progressive Industries energy management device to the generator without the N-G bond, not connected to the trailer, and got a reading of Open Ground.
4)  I next plugged in the N-G bond plug with the PI device plugged in and generator running and got no errors.
5)  I then connected the generator to the T@B with the PI device plugged in but without the N-G bond plug and got an error of Open Ground.
6)  With the generator connected to the T@B through the PI device and the N-G plug inserted, I got no errors.  This was true with or without any load running in the trailer.
7)  Finally, and this is the important part, without the N-G plug in the generator while the PI device was connected, it would not supply power to the T@B.

The N-G plug appears to be the easiest and best way to use a generator with an energy management device between it and the T@B.  I read on another forum that you might be able to dismantle the generator and jumper the terminals from inside, but I wouldn't dream of attempting that.  It would probably void the warranty, might not work, and could be dangerous.

ChanW

Yep, if you gen-power your Tab without the surge protector, then you can do without the special plug. 

mickietucs said:

If I get a gen 1000, would I need the n-g bonding plug? Or is it for just those of you who have hard-wired your surge protectors?  

Ratkity

Cool RZ! Nice experimental setup. 

Ratkity

Being the good mad scientist that I am, I replicated RZR's experiment. I made two different G-N plugs as instruction with proper gauge wiring (14 awg). Open ground with out it in the 20amp plug and no power to T@B. Unplugging the T@B first and then adding the ground-common loop plug followed by attaching the T@B power cord let to 110v outlets working. 

I did find a way to overload the 2000ia Honda by turning on a 1500W ceramic heater (max output 1650W). With the phantom power, the lights (it was getting dark out), the Alde on 2 lightning bolts and the generator being a 20amp and not 30amp service reached it's max. I'll save that little heater (it's a cute one) for later and find a smaller or economical one for the toes - although ThinkGeek has Yeti slippers you can plug into usb ports that warm your toes!!

One thing that I was banging my head on was why I would have 110V with genny and then suddenly NOT. Always had it on shore power. Seemed less power from genny than a 20amp extension cord from inside the basement. Well, the answer was simple when I looked down, exasperated and giving the Honda dirty looks..... The beautiful G-N plug I made for myself had wiggled its way out of the generator socket. Ugh. BTW, there IS a screw where one could put a solid wire ground and tap that into the ground (provided you aren't camping on granite or most BLM lands). That would negate the use of the G-C plug (and wiggling plugs! - who knew?). 

I have learned SO MUCH from you all. I can't express my gratitude to you all. Your experiences and trials and tribulations (and Verna's instructional seminars at Coyote) have been so invaluable. Thank you all. 

BTW, anyone who has a memory foam topper that doesn't roll up nicely will find getting to fuses a wee difficult. I need a better system! It's on the "roundtoit" List

(http://www.amazon.com/CafePress-Round-Tuit-Button-Magnet/dp/B00PGDBT9M/ref=pd_sim_236_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=51X7LSGHOCL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0FK0FV98WPF47EVEWFW2) in case anyone needs a reminder that there's a Roundtoit List that exists in their life. 

Hugs and thank you all!!
Patricia

RZRBUG

Ratkity: "BTW, there IS a screw where one could put a solid wire ground and tap that into the ground (provided you aren't camping on granite or most BLM lands). That would negate the use of the G-C plug (and wiggling plugs! - who knew?)."

Patricia, in the blog I was reading about the G-N plug (the one that is referenced in the first post of this thread), there is an exchange between the author of the article and a reader about the ground rod you mention.  Now, I'm not a scientist, mad or otherwise, and have to depend mostly on others' knowledge, especially when it comes to things electrical.  Here is an edited version of that exchange, which indicates you will still need the G-N plug.
---

I just read your article about creating plug for Ground-Neutral bonding.  My generator has a floating neutral also, and the manual shows that… “Before connecting any loads, ground the generator with a length of heavy cable, connecting the generator’s grounding terminal to an external ground source”. They show a picture of the cable running to a metal stake pushed into the soil.  However, if I use my receptacle tester, with the generator running, and grounded as they describe, with no other loads attached, the tester reports “Open Ground”. If I plug in the cord from the trailer and test with the tester, I again get “Open Ground”.

Reply:

They’re confusing earth ground with bonding. Portable generators for RVs are NOT required to have an earth ground rod at all by the NEC (National Electrical Code). A ground rod IS NOT the same thing as a neutral-ground bond, which is why you’re still showing an open ground even after hooking to a ground rod. So you should be able to build my G-N bonding plug, and create your single-point G-N bond, which is EXACTLY what the NEC requires. The information they have in their user’s manual is simply incorrect for use with an RV or any sort of home emergency power situation.

---

BTW, I love that you ran your own tests.  It's the only way to be sure.  Hope you guys are having fun in the desert.  Wish I were still there.

leenscottfl

Days ago I purchased a Honda EU200i and a battery charger cable. Since I have limited space in my Wrangler Unlimited the charging cables eliminate the need for hauling my battery pack in case of a dead battery. As mentioned I would have to closely monitor the battery because of the lack of a regulator. But I'm sure I will find a place for my battery pack.??