PD 4135 Installation

dlud

I am in the process of replacing my WFCO 8735 power control with the PD 4135. The PD 4135 is supposed to be a direct replacement for the WFCO 8735. If anyone has replaced their WFCO 8735 I would be interested to know the DC circuit wiring scheme you used. The WFCO 8735 has 7 fuses one of which is for the reverse polarity protection. The PD 4135 has a reverse polarity protection fuse and five other circuits available. By my count the PD is one circuit short of the WFCO. Any insights would be appreciated.

wizard1880

I believe the WFCO has an extra fuse just for the converter section itself, which doesn't add any extra wires out the back.  The PD unit doesn't have this.

Let me know if it still doesn't match up, I'll look up the specs when I get close to a PC and help you rewire it.

gregp

@dlud, I am also considering the replacement of a  WF8900 series with the Progressive Dynamics PD4135 capable of charging a lithium 100ah battery. Did you get an answer to you question and how did the instillation go?  Any insights?  Thanks!

GreatWhiteNorth

Also looking for info on this.  This converter was recommended to me today and I ordered it as an upgrade to replace the original in my '04 T@B.

http://www.bestconverter.com/4135_c_226.html

Parlando

I found two different images for the PD-4135 KW2BV. One was on Amazon and it had one less fuse slots than the one on the Progressive Dynamics website.  Also the one on PD was cheaper with free one week shipping than the one on Amazon with one day shipping.  I'll go with PD.

Bayliss

@Parlando, I recently wrote to Progressive Dynamics questioning the discrepancy in the number of fuse slots depicted in their photos (they depict both versions, as does etrailer.com.)  This was their response:

"The only version being produced is the PD4135KW2BV.  The picture on the website is an older version. I will request a change for that. The current version has 6 branch circuits plus the battery fuse.  It will have the lithium switch as well."  (I added the bold highlight for emphasis.)

Progressive Dynamics does not mention anything about this reduction in fuse slots in their installation document (i.e., the difference between the older 4135KV and the newer 4135KW2BV.)  The installation document, which depicts a power center with seven fuse slots, states: "The DC panel features up to six fused positions, one rated for up to 30 amps and five rated for up to 20 amps, for accessories. Each branch has an LED to indicate a blown branch fuse. See product labeling for actual DC fuse position ratings."  The photo on their website shows a 40A fuse (presumably, for reversed-polarity protection) at the far-left end of the row of seven fuses.  On Amazon, the photo I have seen depicts six fuse slots with a 40A and 30A fuse installed at the left end.  Based on reviews I have read, the converter is a good product, but the documentation is poor.  I agree with the documentation concerns.

I wrote to Progressive Dynamics seeking clarification, but they have not responded.  However, since they included the "plus the battery fuse" comment in their earlier response, my guess is that they have an (unfused) wire that is used for connecting directly to the battery.  Presumably, there would be a 30A fuse connected inline on that wire near the battery's positive terminal, but there is no mention of doing that in their instructions.  I plan to purchase the power center, but I may give Progressive Dynamics a call to get my questions answered.  (NOTE: The "V" at the end of their product numbers means that it is packaged for retail sale.)

P.S.  I do not see anything on the Progressive Dynamics website re purchasing the power center directly from them.  Can you post a link that shows that price and ordering info?  Thanks!

Parlando

Hello Bayliss.  You are correct that there is no direct purchase from PD.  I didn't mention that I found mine at the website Boats & RV accessories.  The cost was $165 with free shipping, about 5 working days.  I chatted with the rep and told them that there photo only had 6 slots, not 7.  She contacted the warehouse and they sent a picture of what they had on hand, which had all 7 slots.  She said that it was an old photo on their website, and that she was going to order an update of the photo.  that all happened today, March 15, 2022.

Bayliss

Thanks, @Parlando.  If they are sending you the one with 7 slots, then it is the older version (i.e., 4135KV) rather than the one they are advertising (i.e., 4135KW2BV.)  I don't really understand what the difference is between the two, other than 6 vs 7 fused circuits.  I will probably call Progressive Dynamics tomorrow and try to get the scoop on why they made the change in design.

Parlando

Hi Bayliss,  Please let me know what you learn about the difference.  I wanted the 4135KW2VB.  I'll need to talk to them if there is any important differences. 

Parlando

This was stated on my receipt: 

Progressive Dynamics PD4135KW2BV Inteli-Power Converter 4100 Series × 1

$165.83

And the woman that I ordered from on the chat showed me a picture with all of the fuse slots. 

Bayliss

Thanks @Parlando.  I will post what they tell me.

Bayliss

@Parlando, I sent you a PM, but I assume you have not seen it.  I have left voicemail messages for Progressive Dynamics (technical support) the past two days.  They have not returned my call.  I plan to be on the road for a week, so I will try again when I return.

Parlando

Bayliss,  I just received my PD4135.  It does indeed have all seven fuse slots.  The box label says that it is a PD4135KW2BV.  The specs page in the box list it as a PD4135.  The instruction sheet says PD 4100 series.  I don't see anything on the unit itself.

Maxcamp

I too am in midst of upgrade from Wefco to PD4135W2B (no V at end.)  Nearly done.

Q1: PD lead no.1 (red #10 awg) is battery connection with reverse polarity 40A fuse.   Wefco has same function but NO lead going out, it goes straight to circuit board.  No exiting wire.
What do I connect this lead to on the 320S trailer?   Don't want two battery connections.
On the Wefco, Ckt #6 is already a 30A fused connection to original battery switch in front tub.

WEFCO has seven 12v fused leads going out.
PD has eight 12v fused leads going out.
PD leads 2 through 8 match up with Wefco leads 1 through 7

Switch:
Switch S1 on the 12v printed circuit board needs to be moved UP for LiPoFe.  Sliding it gently upwards with a screwdriver required more force than I expected. 

Marking:
I marked every lead on the Wefco and in the trailer with Brady labels.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Wire-Marker-Booklets-10-Pack-44-102/100118882
I relabeled the PD fuses 2 through 8 as 1 through 7 to match up with the Wefco and trailer labels.3

Splicing:
NuCamp spliced up to five trailers wires to one Wefco lead using insulated compression crimp connectors.
As this is a recipe for a failed home splice I put in Screw Terminal Strip in a WP outlet box.
similar to www.amazon.com/MICTUNING-Way-Electrical-Trailer-Junction/dp/B07QDQRX7P
Had to elevate this box 4" to account for minimal slack in 12v wiring.
Suggest zip tying or taping bundles- e.g. the five wires in one circuit.

Wiring slack:
You need slack wire to pull the Converter unit out and tilt it face up, to work on it. 
NuCamp  would have worked similarly but unfortunately completed some wiring after the fact and left inadequate slack.  #10 Romex to 30A outside trailer plug is too short.  Rewire longer or this is a good time to hardwire a under/over voltage protection box and run stranded wire in LiquiTite from there. 
Similar to www.amazon.com/PROGRESSIVE-INDUSTRIES-HW30C-Hardwired-Electrical/dp/B002UC6RSA
#12 Romex from AC and Alde duplex outlets are a bit short and I elected to rewire them with stranded wire as well.

Moved the existing neutral wire screw terminal strip, screwed to floor, further to right almost against the bath wall.   NuCamp uses 1" bugle head drywall screws on everything, including cabinet hinges.  Should all be pan head.  I used 1/2" pan head square drive sheetmetal screws on this.

A 3" flex AC vent hose is in the way of wiring.  Moved it back against the wheelwell and ziptied it to the HW/CW pipes below.

Warnings:
A. Beware of counterfeit or returned Converter Boxes.
Progressive Dynamics will not warranty goods from unsupported sources- check your source with them.
I will not mention names but one or two well known trailer goods resellers are providing deficient goods. 
BestConverter.com provided me with a reliable one having original packaging, labeling, and warranty.

B. The veneer around the edges of the Converter opening are all broken up from NuCamp blasting in screws at edges of plywood without pre-drilling.  Once I carefully removed the converter bits fell/broke out, creating a massively unsightly situation extending beyond the converter trim.  Will have to re-veneer later- a ton of work.
I see this same issue with cabinet doors in my  2021 trailer, one of which simply fell off and whacked my wife on the head.  I find screws into plywood end grain, screws into joints between framing members, pocket screws in 1/2" plywood (splitting it out.)  I would not have bought this trailer knowing these issues.

C. Nucamp stripped the 120v lug screws (square-drive) on the Converter and massively overtightened them.  From the metal marks, someone used a philips head or wrong square drive.   Able to swap the three Cutler circuit breakers over to the PD box but have to babysit torquing the lugs to 25 ft-lbs with a 1/4" drive socket.  

Denny16

Welcome to the 21st century!  Young people are not taught how to use tools or drove screws into wood using pilot holes.  I doubt you are going to find any RV manufacturers that don’t have these kind of problems, especially during the labor shortages caused by Covid. Hopefully, nüCamp’s new training facility can address these issues and get them corrected, by properly training their new staff.
 Cheers 

Parlando

Maxcamp8  you said, "I too am in midst of upgrade from Wefco to PD4135W2B (no V at end.)  Nearly done."

Did you ever get an answer to how to hook up the 40 amp Reverse Battery Protection fuse red wire coming out of the back, and/or the 30 amp red wire next to it?  Anyone know?

Bayliss

@Parlando and @Maxcamp8, regarding how to connect the 40 amp reversed polarity protection fuse (red wire marked "001"), be sure to review the "PD4100 Addendum to RevA-manual" on the PD site, which states:

"DC: Connections Connect battery POS (+) labeled 001, to the Red BATTERY POS. (+) wire and battery NEG (-) to the White BATTERY NEG. (-) wire." 

You still need to include a 30A inline fuse close to the battery positive terminal.

I talked to a Progressive Dynamics (PD) tech this morning.  He did not provide helpful information as to what changed between the model 4135K vs the current (4135KW2B) version.  All he told me is that they occasionally make changes to the circuit board, but that is "proprietary" information.  However, he did confirm that the 4135KW2B has 7 fuse slots:

• F1 is the 40A reversed polarity circuit (red 001 wire)
• F2 is a 30A max branch circuit (red 002 wire)
• F3-F7 (black wires) are 20A max branch circuits

I also noticed that PD has recently updated their website photos for the 4135KW2B.  The photos now clearly depict 7 fuse slots.

Parlando

@Bayliss Thank you for sharing your info. You said, "You still need to include a 30A inline fuse close to the battery positive terminal.".  I think that means you can leave the 30 amp second red wire free, but do need to have a 30 amp fuse as an inline fuse. I'll double check that. I think I see a fuse holder coming off of the battery and I'll see what that one is.

Bayliss

@Parlando, you are correct that you can leave the second 30A red wire (marked "002") free/unused.  However, it is still available for use as a circuit for up to a maximum of 30 amps.  Regardless, I have noticed on some YouTube videos that individuals who have installed the PD power center have simply capped off the "002" wire, because they did not have a need for it.

And "yes," there should continue to be a 30-amp inline fuse (which was included by nuCamp in their original battery installation) located close to the positive ("+") battery terminal inline on the "001" (red wire) circuit of the 4135KW2B power center.  In other words, leave that original 30-amp fuse in place, or reattach it at that location if you are replacing the wiring to the battery.

For what it is worth, I just sent Progressive Dynamics a lengthy E-mail with several screenshots depicting the 4135KW2B power center as it is being advertised by four of their authorized sellers.  I have observed that those retailers are stating that the power center has six 30-amp maximum branch DC circuits (those are in addition to the reversed-polarity circuit.)  The tech told me, more than once, plus I specifically clarified it with him, that the branch circuits that are connected to the black wires (five total), are each rated for 20-amp maximum.  Therefore, I have again asked him to clarify the maximum rating of those branch circuits, but I currently feel confident that they are rated for 20-amp maximum.  Presumably, the wire gauge size is smaller than the two red wires.  20-amp is sufficient for the circuits as wired by the factory at nuCamp.

I also stressed to the tech (in my written message) that their documentation needs improvement.  I have read a number of complaints online that the power center is being received without any installation instructions, or if included, they are not very helpful.  The installation instructions included on the Progressive Dynamics website appear to be the most current version (although they are not dated), but at least one of their dealers has linked to a 2015 version of the instructions.  I also suggested that they eliminate the "Addendum" to their instructions and incorporate it in the installation manual instructions, plus they should post some helpful installation and troubleshooting videos.

If I learn anything new, I will post that information.  (By the way, thanks for the tip on the price and free shipping offered by "Boats & RV Accessories."  I ordered the power center from them this morning.)

P.S.  For any other T@B owner who may be interested in purchasing a Progressive Dynamics converter through Amazon, ebay, or similar sites, I found this disclaimer on the "BestConverters.com" website:

"Please Read: We have been notified by Progressive Dynamics, Inc. that many PDI converter products are being sold by unauthorized dealers on Amazon and auction type sites without serial numbers and not packaged in the correct boxes. Progressive Dynamics will not support warranty claims from products purchased on Amazon, Ebay or other similar auction sites.  You can be assured from us that your PDI converter is packed in the original view pack box, and will have a serial number traceable back to Progressive Dynamics, Inc. If you have any questions, please contact PDI at 269-781-4241  Here is a link to Progressive Dynamics website and information about these unauthorized products. Progressive Dynamics Service Department"

screwlose

Any Positive Wire coming Directly off the Pos Battery Post should be fused
As close to the Battery Post as possible
If they get cut or insulation wears through and they touch a Ground it could cause a major issue
The Fuse becomes the replaceable weak point

Parlando

@Bayliss and @Screwlose.  Thanks to you both. Bayliss, I concur with all of your observations. Yes, I connected the 40 amp wire to the battery wire, and yes I found and confirmed that I have a 30 fuse next to the positive battery terminal. I'm glad that you gave your input to Progressive Dynamics as their documentation was virtually non-existent. The little drawing they provided of the wiring of the AC and the AC to the DC side used black lines of all the same width and value, overlapping each other to the extent you couldn't tell what went where.  There was no documentation without google searches to explain the extra 30 amp wire. I appreciate having it, but it would have been nice to know that the 40 amp connected to the battery, which wasn't even discussed.  Well, thanks to the T@B forum community I was able to get through it... very grateful to everyone who took time to help me out. 

Bayliss

Thanks for the update, @Parlando, and congratulations.

It sounds like it ultimately all worked out for you, so is everything working a-o-k at this point?  I am not sure which year and model T@B you have, but did you encounter any other installation issues, or do you have any suggestions/tips for those of us who will be adding the PD power center in the future?  (I plan to clearly mark all the wiring before I remove the WFCO power center, so I am sure that will go a long way toward a more successful installation.)

Parlando

I have a 2015 320 Outback. I don’t know much about electrical theory, so I carefully marked every wire on my old WFCO converter before removing it.  I took detailed notes and made drawings when I thought that would be helpful.  Moving to a Progressive Dynamics 4135 converter, the most important difference and useful thing to know was to connect the DC red wire coming out of the back of the converter from the number one DC 40 amp fuse to the wire leading to the battery, and that the second red wire originating from fuse slot number two is an extra wire rated for a 30 amp fuse/appliance. (Not found on the WFCO converter. You can use it to add something, but I just put a wire nut on it for now). One thing that helped me trace the DC wires was to unscrew the fuse board on the WFCO converter and pull it out. After doing that I could trace each of the wires from fuse position out  thorough the box and labeled them to make the transfer easier. Also, confirm that you have a in line 30 amp fuse coming from the positive post of your battery. Mine was already there before starting the process. And, I almost forgot, my Progressive Dynamics converter was about 1/2” less in width than my original WFCO, so I patched in a piece of wood to fill in the opening in the cabinet. Big job, learning curve, and I’m grateful for all the help and suggestions I received. 

Sharon_is_SAM

@Parlando - have you tested it?  Does everything now run on shorepower?  Battery charging?

Bayliss

Here's the response I received this morning from Progressive Dynamics in response to the input/suggestions I sent them:

Thank you for your feedback.  Your input is valuable to us.

I will forward your critiques of the manual to the appropriate department.

 

In general, our manuals are written for the RV technician or the OEM.  They are written with input from both engineers and technicians so that some information that is not included is already understood by personnel in the RV industry in accordance with RV regulations and standard practices.  Your input will help us clarify information for the layperson.  The support manuals and guides on our website contain current product information only.

It is very difficult to police all of the websites that sell our products.  Sometimes their information or pictures are outdated.  We attempt to contact them when customers advise us of errors on a given site, but we can't force them to update.  Most will when asked.  Some may also include installation videos as well, and these videos are produced by that site.  Some videos on YouTube may not be accurate.

Due to the structure of companies in today's environment, the companys we sell to often redistribute under a different company name.  We do not have the names for these subsidiaries.  The companies listed under "Where to buy" on our website in general refresh their stock regularly, so should have the most current product.

Now let me clarify the PD4135KW2B(V)

This unit has the capacity for 5 AC branch circuits plus a MAIN. There are three breaker positions so you will have to use twin breakers. (two independent breaker in one breaker body)

The DC distribution board has 6 DC branch circuits plus a battery connection.  The fuses are labeled F1 - F7 and correspond to the wires labeled 001 - 007

F1/001 (RED) is the battery connection.

F2/002 - F7/007 are DC branch circuits.

F2/002 (RED) is rated for a maximum 30 amp circuit.

F3/003 - F7/007 (BLACK) are rated for a maximum 20 amp circuit.

This power center may have the same fuse count as the WFCO 8700 model, but due to our design, we have 6 DC branch circuits versus their 5 DC branch circuits.

Again, thank you for your feedback, it is appreciated.

Parlando

@Sharon_is_SAM.  Yes everything is charging. My humble voltmeter now reads 13.6 instead of 12.5 and dropping. All lights, fan, pump, USB, CO2 monitor, and radio/CD player are working now. I guess the test will be if they stay working.  I do still would like to make sure each of these are properly fused, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the basic install of the converter.

Parlando

@Bayliss Nice job on giving them input. They may write for the RV technician or the OEM, but they certainly sell for those of us who want to do it themselves.  Hopefully they will update their instruction material. Thanks again for your help.

screwlose

The "twin" breakers they refer to are called Tandems
Two Circuits in One Case
And of their Approved Breaker list only 2 will be easily available at any Retailer
GE or SquareD Homeline, Don't try SquareD QO, totally different design
The rest are long gone out of production

Parlando

Does anyone have an opinion if my fuses ratings seem properly assigned. I'm comfortable with numbers 1 & 2. Numbers 3 through 7 is how they were when I purchased my 2015 Outback 320, and is where my question applies

1. Reverse polarity   40 amp.    Red wire comes out of the back.      Connected to battery
   
2.  Not currently hooked up to anything.  30 amp   Second red wire
3.  Alde heater   15 amp
4.  Pump    10 amp
   
5.  Lights, radio, USB   10 amp
6.  Refrigerator   15 amp
7.  Fan  10 amp

Sharon_is_SAM

@Parlando - if the fuse sizes are the same as prior to the converter swap, I see no reason to change them.  Here is a picture from Fuses for Newbies here on the forum:

Maxcamp

Here is final build after a week's hiatus to get a second new unit.  There ARE some bad new units out there.  First had a fault and oscillated 12v fuse board output between 0 and full voltage from capacitor, even on test without any trailer connections.  Sending it back after many hours of testing and puzzling- one voltmeter could not keep up and read 'proper' voltage but things flickered.  A more accurate voltmeter ranged up and down.  PD never saw this issue before and will check it over.


1. Original conditions.  I wonder if each system installer picks his own routing?  This does not look planned as it could be in CAD for assembly line fabrication.    Nothing is labeled, plumbing hvac and electrical could be segregated more cleanly.



2. Relocated and extended wiring to gain needed slack and neatness.

a. Brady labels on every cable, conductor, fuse block, breaker before any dewiring.

b. added 12v Nema3 terminal block and crimped ring terminals on all the former crimp connections.    Buy a ratcheting crimper to get good terminations.

c. Relocated wire penetrations in Alde bulkhead to make room for surge protector box

d.  To wire surge protector and gain needed slack, rewired from 30A outside plug (#10 orange) to surge to converter.  

e. moved and neatened up other wires and flex A/C duct.



3.  Nucamp wired the Alde and Air8 compartments with some sort of press-fit duplex outlets (top). Never seen these in a long professional building career.  They are the definition of an incipient arc failure in a vibrating trailer. Horrifying.

Shifted Alde duplex outlet to Air8 A/C bin (away from the wet plumbing interface!) rewired both circuits to gain slack.  Used Nema3 metal boxes and GFI's in case I want convenience power off either at some future date.



4. The fully prepped new PD converter.  
a.  Brady labels
b.  Ring terminals on DC wires
c.  Metal NM clamps, not the one-use plastic inserts Nucamp used.
d.  The three leads in PD converter from 12v to 120v side are loosely floating in a notch in the plastic (demising) converter wall.  Drilled 3/8" dia hole in the wall to contain them better during this work and any future removal of panel face.
e. new torque screws in the mini breakers (see next photo for more...)


5. Nucamp installers damaged every square-drive screw on my 2021 NuCamp trailer, by using phillips head bits and often overdriving.  Could not buy just the screws, had to buy $$ new breakers. 
Hand tightening can easily achieve 100# and smash a copper wire down to a thin mash (as found.)
Use a torque screwdriver set to requisite 25# to firmly depress the copper to spec as shown in the PD manual.  Or a light touch to refusal, then a half turn more.



6. Original messy breaker box wiring. NEC requires LICENSED electricians to wire 120v line in house trailers.  Not sure about campers but this is not the work of an experienced pro.



7.  Wiring of second PD converter.  The first was cleaner but converter was defective.



8. The final build out.   Adequate slack in 120v cables to pull box, face upright on elevated box, and work sitting on passenger seat.  12v ring terminations stacked with load terms, washer and nut; then converter ring term and second washer and nylok nut.  Can quickly pull back converter wires and leave trailer wires intact.

9. 40A DC ckt#1 runs to the combined trailer battery/solar red wire that was ckt #6 on Wefco.
Other DC fused circuits 2 through 7 relabeled as 1 through 6 to correspond to their former usages.  6 spare and not used.   Note that PD specifies ckt#1 as a maximum 30A DC load and 40A DC fuse.