No 12 volt service

DebM11

Thank you first off! We just left for our first trip, got ourselves all ready unplugged from 110 and went to test 12 volt and nothing , no lights or Jensen. We checked the battery with an automotive battery tester and it read 12volt after a winter of being plugged into the house outdoor outlet.  Checked the fuses in the converter,  and threw each breaker just in case,  still no 12volt interior lights.  We decided to go on the road as it's just for two nights and can certainly make due, but any thoughts of what to try next? Thanks!

SkiCO

Is the battery cutoff on?  That would seem to be the only thing limiting power to the T@B.

manny

Hi. deb  did you check the 30 amp in line fuse  at the battery connection. ?  do have a cufoff switch?   Happy camping..stay safe

DebM11

We did check the 30 amp inline on the battery too, and it looked clean.  Don't know if we have a battery cutoff, any suggestions where it might be? This is an early 2016 Max S. 

SkiCO

The battery cutoff will be mounted in the tub.  Should be just behind the propane maybe a red unit with a black dial for turning the connection to the battery on/off.

DebM11

Great, will check shortly just about to stop. Rain will it ever stop??

DebM11

Alas no shutoff to be seen in the tub, doubled checkedbattery fuse connected to correct terminal and it is.  Took a pic of tub and underneath carriage  thoughts?

ericnliz

@DebM11, I also have a 2016 Max S. My cut-off switch for the battery is located right on the top of the battery cover itself. Facing the same way as your bottom photo, did you look down on the right side of the battery case itself? Just curious, because it is my understanding that all of the newer T@Bs 2015 & newer have battery cutoff switches. Might give your dealer a call, and see if they located the cut-off switch in a different location. Please let us know what you find out, thanks.

ScottG

***NOTE: I've edited this post to reflect that the battery charger and the reverse polarity protection circuits are protected by separate fuses. My original post incorrectly identified these as a single circuit.***

The line from the battery is also protected by a 30A fuse in the converter's 12V panel. On mine (2015) it's the next-to the-bottom-most fuse and is labelled "battery charger."

In the bottom-most position, there is also a special 40A fuse labelled "reverse battery protection." If that fuse was blown it would also interrupt power from the battery. (And if it is blown, check your battery connections before replacing it!)

You might also check the connections on the converter's pigtail. The converter is connected to the T@Bs wiring harness with garden-variety bullet connectors that are not particularly tight.

These things, plus the battery fuse and cutoff others mentioned, are the places battery power to the trailer is likely to be interrupted.

To clarify, you said the lights don't work. We all seem to be assuming nothing else works either. If other stuff (ceiling fan, water pump, Alde controls, etc.) still operates, then clearly it's a problem with the lighting circuit, not the battery connection.

DebM11

Morning all! So nothing works on 12 volts and we will check again per Ericnliz and Scott's suggestions. We bought this T@b used last year from a poster on here in North Carolina, so we know at least on our ride back north we did have lights when we overnighted at the rest stop. Pouring rain yesterday kind of dampened troubleshooting at the https://bonanzaextravaganza.com/ 

ericnliz

@DebM11, Good to see you're still in good spirits!  Looks like a fun event!
Hope you can solve your mystery of no 12 volt service. Still kinda scratchin' my head on this one. Please let us know what the problem was when you find out. I, for one would like to know, and it might help others as well. I'll surely let you know if I can think of anything else it could be. Be safe out there, and keep up the good spirits!

Verna

@DebM11, did you remove the batter from the tub for the winter?  

Ratkity

The ground for my trailer is just bolted to the frame. No ground = no 12V service. It could have come loose or frayed. Just another 2 cents to add to your searches. 

OMGosh about the rain here. I swam to and from Mom's hotel last night on I-95. Today is cloudy, but tolerable.

RollingBnB

Do you have a test meter with you. What is the reading across the +/- of the battery and then from the + terminal to a bolt on the frame, should read the same. If not, bad ground Start at the source.

NomadPilgrim

Sounds like my weekend, except I had no 12v; and no lights or Alde on shore power but all fans worked. I checked every single fuse with a fuse tester. Now in the shop with $1200 worth of repairs to electrical! See my post in the electrical threads. Did you resolve this? For under $1200?!

Michigan_Mike

DebM11 said:

Thank you first off! We just left for our first trip, got ourselves all ready unplugged from 110 and went to test 12 volt and nothing , no lights or Jensen. We checked the battery with an automotive battery tester and it read 12volt after a winter of being plugged into the house outdoor outlet.  Checked the fuses in the converter,  and threw each breaker just in case,  still no 12volt interior lights.  We decided to go on the road as it's just for two nights and can certainly make due, but any thoughts of what to try next? Thanks!

So lets clarify a few things here.....

1.  Do the lights inside the trailer work okay when plugged into shore power?   If so this eliminates the electric converter.  

2.  As noted earlier, verify that the 30 A fuse is good at the battery and start there as you can easily trace the wiring back into the trailer and it is always best to start from the power source (trailer battery) and work your way back into the trailer.  And if the trailer lights worked fine last fall before the battery was either disconnected and stored, etc. this problem should be easy to trouble shoot and find where the problem lies.  

The connections below look good from your picture but it never hurts to gently tug on them to see if you have a good connection.  I have found connections in the past that were not properly placed into the butt splices and terminals, they were supposedly crimped down and when I tugged on them they came loose from the connection/splice.  Do this with your connections below or via a volt/ohm meter place a probe inside the splice or through the coating of the wire and try and verify that you do in fact have continuity and voltage flow.  I would even find a good 30 A fuse and replace the existing fuse to ensure that things are right or test the fuse with a meter to verify the fuse is good.  I've seen many strange things working on electric circuits and what visually appears to be fine, might in fact be the problem and could be a bad connection.  



3.  If the electric converter powers up the interior of the trailer without any issues  I would suspect that this is a grounding problem between the battery and where the 12 volt feed enters the back side of the electric converter.  have you plugged the trailer into your tow vehicle and do the trailer's  marker and tail lights work okay?  And if your trailer tail lights/turn signal lights and marker lights are working okay (along with the electric converter) and you still do not have interior power to the trailer, I would believe your problem is between the trailer battery and the electric converter.   

4.  Follow the fused circuit back from the battery and this will lead back into the trailer.  You could open up the splice box shown below and check all of the connections inside it, but I doubt that is where the problem resides.  It never hurts to look inside, inspect this area and hand tighten all of the connections.  When you do look inside the splice box you will be amazed at the wiring located inside this compact area.  And you never know, something might be loose or somehow has become corroded and could have failed.  Unless the box was damaged from something along the road I would doubt that the problem is here, but you never know.  



5.  Driver's Side Bench -  Open up the bench behind your shower unit and inspect the wiring in this area.   All trailer wiring will be here and this would be (my guess) "a likely spot" to where the problem may lie.  This is the brain area of the trailer (if you will) and this is the crossroads area for all trailer wiring and the Alde unit sits just to the left of this bench in the other bench quadrant and it's wiring enters here too.  

If you look down and just behind the electric converter (where all the colored wires enter the converter) you will see that there is a multiple wire (silver) grounding block and the place where all ground wires are tied/connected into the block, along with a copper ground wire.  I would tug on these wires some, check to see that they are seated firmly beneath the screw style lugs and I would individually hand tighten every one of these screw style connections.  You could also test for 12-volt power here too if you have a 12-volt test light with the pointed probe.  One end hooks to a ground and you use the probe to poke into a wire to see if there is voltage.  These are handy items to have and will allow you to check for voltage beyond the battery.  Make sure you tape up any intrusion holes you make with this tool to eliminate water from entering the wire.  

Also, you might see the various splices (butt connectors) shown below.  Tug on them and check to see that they are making good connections.   Just visually inspecting them doesn't get the job done and you need to ensure that these connectors (along with any wire terminals) are good and that the splice was done correctly.  I found a couple of wires in my T@B that were not properly crimped and I was able to pull the splice apart.   This isn't to suggest that workmanship is inferior, it means that we are all humans, we do our best to do things correctly and yet we do make mistakes.  This is why they put erasers on pencils and unfortunately in our haste (maybe it's lunch time or a distraction takes place) we do make simple mistakes that work themselves in the clear some time down the line and after jostling along/bouncing on the many roads traveled, etc.  I've done it myself and pride myself in doing things correctly and making solid connections.  Oh well!  

I'd be interested to hear back on your problem and what you ultimately find therein.  They do sell some small LED style volt/ohm testers at Lowe's and for anyone who travels well equipped on trips, this is a great tool, not too expensive and you will be happy you have one when something goes bad 2K miles out away from your home base.

Good luck!  

DebM11

Update.  Our battery was dry and of course would not take a charge.  I know we should have checked electrolyte first thing.  New battery still does not power lights.  Lights work on shore power.  12.54 volts between terminals and 12.54 volts from positive terminal to frame tells me grounds are OK.  I went to check the 30 amp fuse near the battery again and found it too hot to touch.  I disconnected shore power.  We have no battery cut out switch that I can find.  Thanks for your help.

RollingBnB

Read the battery again w/o shore power. Hot wires not good. Sounds like maybe a short to ground. Did you get a new battery?

DebM11

update, update: Husband studies battery cable and realized he mis-applied on of the cable.  everything seems fine now, and watching the charger.  
Did not remove battery for winter, kept the shore power on the whole time-  I thought it would be ok guess not.  After a few medical issues was finally able to play with the T@b when we realized no 12 volt.
Seems AOK in service, thanks for all of your help!!! 

Michigan_Mike

I would look at the trailer wiring harness too, inspect it as it does sound like a shorted (crushed wiring?) wire somewhere.  I would also check inside the bench area next to shower and check all of the wiring there.  That is considered no-man's land so far as placing any items inside that bench and if there was something placed in there and bouncing around it could easily have caused some damage.  The "hot fuse" issue is troubling to me as normally a fuse will blow when a short occurs, so it sounds like a hot wire rubbed through and touching a ground.   Maybe a rodent chewed on some of the wiring and has created the above condition?   I would follow the wiring back to the trailer (check the trailer wiring harness where it connects to your tow vehicle) as this sounds bad.  

ericnliz

@DebM11, Can you explain "mis-applied"? Might help someone else with the same issue. Thanks! Just a little side note: If the fuse was too hot to touch, I would for a little "piece of mind" sake, change that fuse. Getting that hot is NOT a good thing.
Glad you found the issue!

Michigan_Mike

DebM11 said:

update, update: Husband studies battery cable and realized he mis-applied on of the cable.  everything seems fine now, and watching the charger.  

So what you are saying is that your husband had a ground wire attached to the positive lead on the battery?   I did see the green wire (spliced to the red wire) in the above photo (but this is fused) and that brought a flag up when I first saw it, but figured someone had used a spare piece of green wire to splice onto a shorter wire.  Normally green wires are used as a universal ground wire (if you will) and you see this a lot in wiring circuits.

DebM11 said:

Did not remove battery for winter, kept the shore power on the whole time-  

In my opinion I would not leave the trailer plugged to shore power all winter long as you add a lot of wear and tear on the converter itself.  Consider buying and using a battery tender as it does essentially the same thing (charges & floats the battery charge), but is much cheaper to buy and replace than a battery converter.  

ericnliz

@DebM11, At this point, Think (personally), I'd either install, or have a battery cut-off switch installed as well, if you have yet to find one on your trailer.

ScottG

@DebM11, I'm also curious as to what you mean by "misapplied the battery cables." The 40A reverse polarity fuse in the converter that I mentioned in my earlier post should blow if you accidentally swap the battery leads.

What you show in your photo (below) looks normal, at least compared to my 2015 S. On the positive terminal, the green-spliced-to red wire with the 30A inline fuse should run to the junction box under the front of the trailer--from there, it connects to both the converter and the 12V feed from your trailer plug. The separate red wire should run to the Zamp port on the side of the tub--its only purpose is for hooking up a solar panel.

Same goes for the two white wires connected to the negative post. One goes the junction box where it connects to both the converter and the TV harness, the other goes to the Zamp port.

It seems likely the dry battery was the root of your troubles. My first battery--particularly once it was on its last breath--would get warm and "boil" constantly if left on a charger. In that situation, it doesn't take long for your electrolyte to disappear. I'm not certain, but this could also have something to do with the fuse/charge wire heating up as the converter struggles to charge the dry battery.

A good disconnected battery should hold its charge for several weeks before needing a little top-up. If I'm right, all should be copacetic with your new battery in place!

Michigan_Mike

The white wire is suspect as normally the Zamp solar plugs are wired with red & black wires.   

ScottG

No suspicion here--my Zamp leads are definitely red and white. If I recall correctly, the plug leads on mine are quite short--the red and white wires you see in the photo are crimped on extensions. Also, note that my inline fuse from the + post has yellow wire (as opposed to DebM11's green).

I have a feeling the factory uses whatever happens to be lying around on a given day, with limited regard to color conventions...

DebM11

I love the way there really isn't a standard, makes life more interesting. @ericnliz yes will look into getting a battery cutoff switch installed as it still is MIA. Also @ScottG going to actually play with the zamp this week, have got my solar panel now!

ericnliz

@DebM11, The upside to the scenario is that now you know what makes everything work & where to find all the fuses & breakers. You've now reached your T@B university Sophomore status! Sometimes mistakes are the best teachers, and no one was severely hurt ( except feelings I imagine), and all animals escaped unscathed. You're up & running again, and ready for the next adventure. Just remember, there are NO silly questions, help is only a keyboard away & a hearty welcome to the family! 

ScottG

@DebM11, I think battery cutoffs were first provided by the factory sometime during the 2016 model year. You indicated yours was an "early" 2016, so you probably just missed out. Model year designations don't seem to mean much with the T@B, as most improvements seem to be made on the fly.

Before the factory made them standard, battery cutoffs were a topic of lively discussion here. Peruse the older posts and you will find lots of information and ideas. You definitely want one, as pulling fuses or disconnecting cables every time you park gets a little tedious!