New T@B picked up... Subaru Outback going up for sale

Jannon

Had a FANTASTIC experience with Santa Fe RV who do a nice job of getting customized T@Bs (mine is a CS-S with the Outback axle and front platform/storage box).  Threw in a lot of extras, including an anti sway bar and many other goodies.   Stayed on the drive back to Denver, so had a chance to enjoy it a bit... nucamp really does a great job!  

My worst fear was realized... my 4 cyl. 2017 Subaru Outback won't adequately tow it.  I've been reading a lot and some people have said no problem others said no way... it technically towed it; however, it was laboring a lot on any significant hills and even gradual inclines needed a heavy gas pedal and It was laboring.  Took double the gas on the way back.   If it was just a few trips a year it would be fine... but I plan on taking it out a lot.  Very disappointed as I really wanted to keep the Subaru :(

Sharon_is_SAM

Agreed, nuCamp is a rare find in the industry.  With what are you replacing the Outback?

Jannon

Jeep Grand Cherokee... looking for the V8...that should tow my beloved T@B ALL day long and with a bike rack on the hitch.  I LOVE the Subaru...it was just a DOG and cannot imagine driving it all the time with the trailer in tow.  

rkj__

Grand Cherokee with a V8?  That will tow 3 T@bs, or one with ease.  

BirdieJane

I did not notice until today that you live in CO, we live in WA and our passes are 3 to 4 thousand feet. Not like CO. We live at sea level and travel at low altitude. I can understand your future TV. 

Homebodyatheart

@Jannon, smart move to replace your TV before you have transmission problems. Subaru does make a 6cyl Outback, and 6cyl is plenty to tow the T@b. Ask your dealer first if it comes with a factory tow package with a 2" hitch and 7 pin wiring. The dealer here is very reluctant to do that, as they discourage towing with Subaru's period. Yours might be different, but you have to ask. We traded our 4cyl Outback for a 6cyl 2015 Toyota Highlander. I barely notice that I'm towing it most of the time. Gas mileage isn't great, but as a good friend told me "focus on the fuel level, not the MPG, and enjoy your travels!" I think he's right! Good luck!

BillRedding

@Jannon:    Forget using ANY Subaru (even a 6-cyl) to tow these trailers, at best (IIRC) they are only rated for towing 2700lbs -- that's WAY too little even for many so-called "ultralight" trailers nowadays! Even many pop-ups!!

PLUS, the jury is still out (re: longevity/durability) on vehicles having a CVT transmission being used for regular towing duties: Will they hold up over time or wear out prematurely? That's one reason I got a Honda Pilot AWD (2016) as it has a very durable/powerful (280HP/262 ft-lbs torque) V6 engine & a strong (and "real") automatic transmission with a towing capacity of 5000lbs (and a 500lb tongue-weight -- I don't think the 6-cyl Subarus even come close. AND, the Pilot has the stronger suspension to handle towing better than any Subaru (as HP is not the ONLY factor determining towing-capacity).

I've contacted Subaru about improving (big time!) their towing specs, but they're still in-denial I guess. They do all this advertising showing people "out in the wild" with their Subarus -- and their "Symmetrical AWD" system IS one of the best -- but absolutely NOTHING re: their Subarus being able to tow anything of consequence to sleep/live in. I asked them how the heck can they advertise "people getting out in nature" yet their vehicles can't TOW any of the RVs people want o take OUT there? Even the SMALL trailers. But Subaru seems to think sleeping in their vehicles is some "adventure" or "trendy" and so it's the answer for everyone -- I assured them, it isn't! Maybe dogs & kids think it'd be fun sleeping in a car, but not adults who can't even stretch-out! Besides, how many people (adults/kids) and dogs can you pack into a Subie anyway? ;-)

Here's one instance where the occupants probably don't mind sleeping in a vehicle...because they're SMALL to begin with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vy4kBc92CQ

But really, even these DOGS aren't towing anything very heavy -- like a T@B!  ;-)

So who really wants to sleep in their cars (!) when they SHOULD be towing a comfortable travel-trailer instead? Very short-sighted of Subaru and IMO, they're not understanding the American RV market AT ALL. Or that their vehicles SHOULD be able to do what their advertising suggests. But they can't.

Anyway, Subarus (ALL of them) are lightweights when it comes to towing anything serious...so look elsewhere (as you're doing).

But you don't need the (most expensive) Jeep SUV -- a Grand Cherokee -- instead, look at a Cherokee 4x4 (get a Trailhawk version!)...it has a 4500lb towing capacity (and probably a 450lb tongue-weight). AND it's a REAL 4x4 (not an AWD). Although many SUVs have AWD systems nowadays, some (like my 2016 and later Pilot) are superior to most "AWD" SUVs out there because they all don't use the same technology -- some systems are better performers than others. Regardless (and as mentioned) the Cherokees are REAL 4x4 vehicles, and there IS a difference.

But if you want higher than 4500lbs towing capacity (it's always better to have a bit more towing capacity than you NEED), then yes, a Grand Cherokee would be better.

Good luck,

-- BR

blackc2004

BillRedding said:

PLUS, the jury is still out (re: longevity/durability) on vehicles having a CVT transmission being used for regular towing duties. 

Eek. That's good to know. I have a 2016 Infiniti QX60 with a CVT... I've been debating trading it in for a Tacoma. 

BillRedding

@ blackc2004:     Well, we just don't KNOW yet how CVTs will hold up over time towing some decent weights on a regular basis as they haven't been around long enough to tell -- and *I* didn't want to be a "test subject!" So I decided to leave the Subaru CVT fold and get a Honda Pilot (a Toyota Highlander/Nissan Pathfinder were two other choices, as were the 5-6 other mid-size SUV makers such as Kia, Volvo, Buick, etc.).

Basically, any of the ~3.5L V6/automatic transmission "mid-size" SUVs out there (the AWD versions only I think) are rated to tow 5000lbs (WITH a "towing package" of course). The 2WD versions tow less, at least when it comes to the Pilot. I just went with the AWD Pilot over the AWD Highlander (my final 2 choices on my Short List).

-- BR

blackc2004

I read an infiniti qx60 forum daily and there's a LOT of people who complain about the CVT shuddering under just normal driving conditions... ::knock on wood:: I have 26,000 miles and no issues so far.

I just think a Tacoma would better fit what I need to do.... The infiniti is an amazing SUV but not really built for dogs and camping and dirt roads. 

fiddlefoot

Currently towing with an 08 Tacoma, great on the flat, ok on the East Coast mountains, mostly.  Plan on another Tacoma, in 2016 the horsepower went up. The current one does have the TRD off road package, stiffer suspension and towing package.

lightningdon

I am using a 2017Tacoma TRD Sport with the V6 and 6 speed manual trans. Pulls my T@G nicely. 278hp and 265 lb-ft torque. 6400lb towing capacity with factory tow package.

lapowers57

I replaced my older Ford Explorer with a Jeep Grand Cherokee after purchasing my T@B.  I can tell you that the V6 pulls the T@B with plenty of left over capacity.  I bought mine with a factory tow package and it is rated at 6,200 lbs towing capacity.

KBaggins1

What makes a good tow vehicle is how much torque it makes at how low of RPM.Torque is what gets you up the hills. The more the better.Diesels make great tow vehicles because they produce maximum torque at what is barely above an idle speed for a gas engine. Here is some specs and you will see what I mean:
2017 Honda Pilot v6- 280 HP @ 6000 Torque 262 @ 4700
Ford 3.6 turbo ecoboost v6 310HP @ 5580 Torque 400 @ 2500
Ford 5.0 v8 385 HP @5750 Torque 387 @ 3850
Ford 3.2 turbo 5 cyl diesel 185 HP @ 3000 Torque 350 @ 1500
    The Pilot v6 is a non turbo engine and that is why the torque peak is not developed till 4700 RPM. The turbo v6 does much better at only 2500 RPM. The v8 is pretty good with lots of torque but still a peak at 1350 RPM higher than the turbo v6.
     The turbo diesel puts them all to shame with 350 lb/ft at only 1500 RPM.That means it will go up a fairly steep grade without downshifting to a lower gear. We towed with a 2009 Pilot and we could not stand the 5000 RPM screaming engine to get to the top of a steep hill. A turbo v6 is better, a v8 is good. A recent test in Car and Driver of 2 identical F150's except Turbo v6 vs 5.0 v8 showed the v8 getting 1 mpg better mileage but most testers preferred the turbo v6 because of the way it went up the hills.
     The other thing to remember if you are going to high altitudes is that a turbo engines brings its own atmosphere with it. High altitude has very little affect on it. A non turbo engine will suffer the higher up it goes.
     

rkj__

Initially, it is hard to imagine a Taco would struggle to pull a T@b, unless towing at higher altitude, where the thinner air really kills the power of a naturally aspirated engine.

BillRedding

For the record, I wasn't including pickup trucks as a travel-trailer tow-vehcile as I wasn't comparing apples & oranges. I kept to mid-size V6 SUVs since (1) the OP had a Subaru Outback SUV, (2) I have a 2016 Honda Pilot AWD SUV (for towing AND other reasons, and IMO, a SUV much improved over a 2009 Pilot) and (3) the OP was looking into getting a Jeep SUV -- a Grand Cherokee -- not a pickup truck.

So it was comparing apples to apples: mid-size SUVs to mid-size SUVs, the "generic" V6 ones available presently.

The best TRUCK for towing is whole 'nother story...but sure, they definitely CAN tow plenty...which would be overkill (and more $$$$ spent) for towing a T@B 320 or 400.

It's just that some of us like a SUV so we have "covered" interior space we can use for assorted things vs. less space in a pick-up cab, even a Crew Cab (or similar).

-- BR

Deltaboy59

Just upgraded to a Ford F-150...why...?

KBaggins1

The ford ecoboost v6 is available in the F150,Flex, Explorer, Transit van and I think the Edge as well. For whatever reason the Japanese brands have stayed away from turbos for their v6 SUV's. I used the Ford #s just for easy comparison. I am sure the Cherokee v8's specs will be similar to the Ford.

jcfaber1

We have a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the V6 and it does fine.  With that said, if I were purchasing today, I would get their turbo diesel.  The engine will pull much better and at lower RPM's as discussed above with other diesel vehicles.  When not towing the mileage will be fantastic.
John

Dockguy

Basically you need a tow vehicle with at least a V6 engine otherwise your tow vehicle will struggle.  We tow with a 2017 Honda Pilot LX with FWD and a V6, we also are adding a friction sway bar just for piece of mind when towing on highways.

Dockguy
2017 Honda Pilot w/ V6, FWD
2016 T@B S Max

manny

dockguy, I agee I have a 2016 Honda EX-L AWD V-6  ..have pulled our 2017 cs-s max   about 1500 miles so far no problem..  don't use the econ mode for towing..    going on a long trip in sept. from ohio to seattle then back...  I would rather have more than enough hp & torque then be at the marginal limit...  

Tabbieannecamper

Wee3

Jannon, We have a 2015 Max-S and have been towing with a 2012 Subaru Outback 6 speed manual. We had some tense times on long upward stretches and did not even want to attempt in the mountains. We started looking for a different TV. I worked in the automotive field for many years and researched all the options. I did not want Anything with the CVT transmission. After months of research we bought a 2016 Toyota 4-Runner. It came all set up with the complete tow package and has a full frame under it. I can't even tell when I am towing the T@B. Looking forward to many happy camping miles.

Gary

2015 Max-S     2016 4-runner

Jannon

I appreciate that Gary...and the others.  Definitely the right thing to do is upgrade my TV to truly enjoy my camping, and because I want to do so much of it.  Can't tell you how pleased I am with the T@B...exceeded my expectations!

BillRedding

@Manny:   I have the very same SUV same SUV you do: 2016 Honda Pilot EX-L AWD...mine is "Obsidian Blue Pearl" color.   ;-)

In 2 years when it comes time to replace my original OEM tires, am putting on Continental TerrainContact A/T tires (also OEM tire-size @ 245/60-18): I like to go out into the desert here occasionally (dirt/gravel roads and sand) and want to take better advantage of the Pilot's excellent AWD system. They should also be better in snow than the current OEM All Season tires, too (for when I visit Colorado).

-- BR

TabberJohn

As @KBaggins1 points out it's all about hp and torque for towing assuming the TV's tow package is up to par.
2017 Outbacks are available with a 2.5L 4-cylinder engine which produces 175hp @ 5,800 rpm with 174 lb-ft torque @ 4,000 rpm. Or a 3.6L 6-cylinder that generates 256hp @ 6,000rpm with 247 lb-ft torque @ 4,400 rpm. That is a substantial difference for towing.

There's also plenty of vehicles with 4-cylinder turbo engines that can readily pull a T@B over any terrain.
Our 2014 Ford Escape 2.0L EcoBoost (turbo) generates 240hp with 270lbs-ft torque @ 3000 rpm paired with a 3500 lb factory tow package. T@B 320? No problem.

BillRedding

Actually, it's MORE than HP and torque -- it's suspension, too! Subarus don't even have THAT.

But even the Subaru 3.6L 6cyl (Boxer?) engines are not up to what the other makers' V6 engines are. While the "generic" 3.5L (+-) V6s of all the other brands of mid-size SUVs can tow 5000lbs (with the tow-package, of course), the best a 6-cyl Subaru can tow with 256HP/247ft-lbs torque is 2700 lbs (as has been mentioned). That's WAY under the V6s. And due to that limit, tongue-weight is WAY less, too.

Of course, people can use whatever vehicle they want to tow with, but personally I'd look for and get something else besides ANY model of Subaru for towing even the smaller TTs we're talking about here -- and I did (got the Honda Pilot). Besides, you not only want a vehicle that can tow the weight you need, you SHOULD get a vehicle that can tow a bit MORE than you need so you have some headroom (a cushion). Again, my choice has that headroom.

As someone else mentioned above, a Ford Transit van, especially upgrading the engine to the 3.5L EcoBoost OR the 3.2L in-line 5-cyl diesel, would make a great tow vehicle for one of the smaller TTs (such as a T2B 320 or 400, Lance 1475 or 1575, Scamp 13 or 16, Airstream Basecamp, etc.) -- or even a larger TT -- but TMK, they don't come in AWD/4x4 so it wouldn't have worked for me. Even if 4x4 could be added-on, the price would likely be higher than I'd want. But the CARGO area inside a Transit to carry spare water, propane, 4-6 large/heavy (300+ Watts each) solar panels, bikes, chairs and other supplies would make a Transit/T@B quite an outstanding boon-docking combo!

-- BR

ericnliz

I'll take a V8 any day of the week!  Really don't understand WHY folks want to just "squeak" by with some of these rigs, especially for safety reasons. Least I would even attempt would be a larger size V6, but you'd be givin' up a lotta tomato juice!

rkj__

ericnliz said:

I'll take a V8 any day of the week!  Really don't understand WHY folks want to just "squeak" by with some of these rigs, especially for safety reasons. Least I would even attempt would be a larger size V6, but you'd be givin' up a lotta tomato juice!

Well, for some towing might make up less than 10% of their driving.  So, they might choose a vehicle that is optimized for 90% of their driving, and passable for 10% of their driving, instead of choosing a vehicle that is optimized for 10% of their driving. 

ericnliz

I still stand my ground on the SAFETY FIRST issue!!! That bein' said, to each there own, just remember, when things go awry, it was YOUR decision, not mine. I just prefer to be safe, rather than sorry. Only MY opinion, and not tryin' to make an argument outa' this discussion. 

LauraRey

I had to trade in my Forester when I got my T@B.  I would love to have stayed with Subaru, but they utterly refuse to create a vehicle that can tow.  Weird.  They are losing a huge section of the market.  I opted for a Honda Ridgeline and love it.

Trailpixie

The forester is technically not rated to tow a T@B, but the turbo is good.  It has a heavy duty CVT, larger brakes, and stiffer suspension.  

....and

horsepower 250@5600 rpm , torque 258@2000-4800 rpm

Lots of power and torque. I have rented a T@B and had no problems towing with the Forester.

P.S. Americans like to overbuild everything.