Tow Vehical MPG...

Ratkity

I also wanted to add that I have yet to see a ball on a hitch that is rated over 6000# max towing. If it exists, it's rare. I have yet to see a half-ton truck able to tow more than 7600#. I believe one has to go up to heavy duty or super duty (I know those terms might be specific to one brand, but you get the idea).

Fergie

We recently completed a 8000 mile trip from southern Minnesota across the country and Canada to move to Alaska. We traveled to visit friends and family in North Dakota, Colorado, California and Washington before heading up thru Canada on the Al/Can dodging wildfires in British Columbia and Alberta on our two month epic journey. Now that we are getting settled, I will have more to share on this trip in the future.

We towed a 2015 T@B Smax with a2009 Ford Expedition XLT with a 5.4L 330CID V8 engine. Both the SUV and the trailer together carried about 1000 lbs of gear and belongings. Our typical overall average in the lower US and Canada was around 13.5 mpg towing at 55 - 65 mph with the non-towing average at the same speeds being around 15.5 to 17.0 mpg (mostly in MN) without all the extra weight.

Now that we have been living in Alaska for two months and having made two round trip highway trips from Palmer, AK to Valdez, AK and back, we are getting 18.5 to 19.5 mpg at 65 to 70 mph without a trailer! 

Why the increase? Simple. They have an exemption from ethanol here and only a few stations offer the mix as an option. No one talks about it much, but ethanol has much less energy density than pure gasoline so it costs you gas milage. The higher the percentage of ethanol, the lower the gas milage. I believe our experience in Canada was mixed as their 5% ethanol mandate excludes the colder providences. 

For more information on the problems with ethanol in gasoline engines and storage, see the link below from  an article in the Canadian Globe and Mail:

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commentary/the-problem-with-ethanol-in-gasoline/article29103634/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

Cheers, Fergie

Zurdo5150

4ncar said:

Ok, I suppose we all don't care too much about our mpg...but who dares to share?  I'll start: '09 Jeep 4 door rubi, 110,00 miles and my 320S, lightly loaded...  400 mile trip: 13 MPG...

'05 VW Passatt Wagon 1.8T with 144K.
Tows really nice being its 1.8L but I have to be careful to keep my speed low. The millage quickly drops down to 10 mpg when I go over 60 or I'm doing a lot of stop & go or up & down driving.
I am traveling the whole country (currently in VT) so fingers are crossed that the old dub holds out.

irvingj

I've been sort of hooked on diesel for a LONG time. My first was an '82 Peugeot 504D wagon (really like wagons). Did a lot of research/reading on diesels; for an IC engine, they're simply the most efficient thing around... BUT, EPA emission regs --while not a bad thing at all, IMO-- have really strained diesels; new ones are just not as forgiving as the old ones.

Bought my VW Jetta wagon in 2005, one of the last of their diesels available prior to the development of the common-rail (BRM) engine that's currently in use. (That's why VW had about a 4-year period when diesels were simply not available.) Mine has the BEW engine -- I believe VW's third iteration of the TDI series, and was "illegal" in CA or any other state that adopted their emissions standards. NH didn't subscribe to that (at the time), so I could actually buy it-- but would not have been able to in NY, VT, ME, or MA. They only made that engine version for a few years, the 2005.5 model being the last time they were available.

It was the current BRM engine that was the "cheater" -- bad move on VW's part, but I could sorta understand their logic, since aftermarket emissions defeaters were easily available (again, at the time) online almost anywhere, and were widely used... so I think their thinking was "Why not? Everybody defeats emission controls in the US anyway!" Not saying I agree with that at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was at least part of their "logic." I think the EPA has started going after those companies now.

I love my Jetta and will not part with it; it was a quantum leap in performance compared to the straight-mechanical Bosch injection system, with Ricardo pre-combustion chambers, that was used in that Peugeot. (I was told, more than once, that "peugeot" was French for "slow"   The Jetta is what I used to tow the T@B, with quite good results, as long as I kept speed below 60 or 65.

After we sold our T@B, my wife & I bought a Roadtrek RV, which was based on a short-wheelbase Mercedes Sprinter chassis; it has a 3.0L V-6 diesel, with a full complement of emission controls on it. I'm learning that it's amazingly complex and can be touchy! There are numerous examples of folks who have newer diesel Sprinters and have had some real horror stories --expensive horror stories-- about issues they've had. So far, a couple of sensors have flaked out on ours --warranty covered it-- but I find I keep my fingers crossed all the time when driving it.

Although it gets darned near 20 mpg at highway speeds (in spite of the fact that it weighs 8500 pounds), doesn't slow down going up hills, and is a real pleasure to drive, I don't know if I'll ever buy another diesel again. Reminds me of US cars back in 1972 when emission controls first hit them-- they were really garbage, and it seemed like it took engineers about 20 years to be able to produce gas engines that were quite clean as well as efficient. Maybe the same for diesels?

4ncar

I love diesels.  Sadly do not own my dodge Cummins any longer(PU), and was considering swapping the sluggish 3.8 v6 in my jeep for a 4BTA cummins, but that idea is slipping away the more I research...I loath the idea of getting rid of the jeep, but the lack of torque is driving me nuts.  I suppose I should get used to 45 mph in the slow lane with the flashers on...

Ratkity

So Irving, I'm confused. Do you like the Sprinter diesel or not? It sounds like it runs well, has had a couple sensor issues (but not mechanical...yet) and it makes it up hills pretty well. Sounds like my silly truck (gas)!

irvingj

I really do like it, but have to admit I'm leery of what could happen, these things are SO complex. I visit the Sprinter Forum on a daily basis, just so I can learn. Used to sling wrenches, still do a lot of my own work -- but this thing, I'm afraid to touch. Even a great many M-B dealers have a terrible rep with these things, and some dealers simply "don't work on Sprinters"; fortunately, the tech at the M-B dealer in Manchester, NH is really sharp, knows I used to be a mechanic, and talks to me.

The two NOx sensors that control the DEF injection were replaced. My Sprinter is a 2015, and when they were replaced --in 2016, at 19K miles-- there had already been two revisions to those sensors. Still a work in progress, I suppose.

Apparently many of the diagnostics require proprietary M-B computers to read, though an OBDII scanner can give you the code(s), at least. Interpretation and explicit diagnosis is entirely another matter. I have permanently mounted a ScangaugeII in the thing, first time I've ever felt the need to do that, to any vehicle.

And this thing will actually shut itself down if its computer determines that a problem is serious and hasn't been taken care of in a timely manner. Yep, the dreaded "TEN STARTS REMAINING" message, and yes, I got that once; fortunately, we weren't on the road at the time! LHM (Limp Home Mode) is another way the computer tells you something needs to be done... NOW.  Just don't plan on setting any speed records on your way to the dealer!

As I said, so far mine has "behaved" for the most part (now @ 31K), but I've read about a number of folks who have had repeated issues and have spent a great deal of time & money getting the $%#@$ things fixed properly. True, many cases were due to incompetent --or perhaps ignorant-- work done, but these new diesels are definitely very finicky. And I should say it's not only M-B diesels, but some others as well. M-Bs just seem more... complicated.

But absolutely, as far as a great driving, amazingly efficient, comfortable RV, it really is great, a far cry from the Ford & Chevy vans I used when I was an HVAC tech. I just hope it stays that way.

And yes, I'm sure there are also many people who have had very few issues with their newer (post-DEF) Sprinters; I just hope I'll be one of them.

Roamey

On my last camping trip I was thinking how nice it would be to free myself from towing and be able to stop and sightsee on the way in small parking spots, then just pull into the campground at the end of the day. A small wheelbase Sprinter class B van would be nice with north/south sleeping and separate eating up front. Setting aside the astronomical price, I am afraid of the diesels. I'm glad you posted and brought me back to reality. The daydream search for the perfect camper continues...

irvingj

"...free myself from towing and be able to stop and sightsee on the way in small parking spots, then just pull into the campground at the end of the day."


Well, there is certainly that-- ours has 300W of solar on the roof and a 3KW inverter, so we really never have to "plug in." I can run the electric-only fridge and the exhaust fan all night while parked, and can still turn on the inverter and make coffee with a small 120V maker the next morning (there are 4 190AH 6V batteries in series-parallel). By 11AM, just with a sunny day, everything's charged back up again. This one also has an additional alternator under the hood which is dedicated to the coach batteries, so simply starting the engine will also recharge them. (No separate generator.)

I gather this model was Roadtrek's intermediate version, before their "all-electric" E-trek models came out. In any case, it works very well for us. My batteries are the valve-regulated flooded wet cell lead-acid type (VRFLA), no lithiums.

Hot weather, however, is another story: it does have a 120V rooftop AC, and that can run on battery/inverter power only, but only for a half hour or less. Otherwise, if AC is required, shore power's required. So, we stay away from really hot weather when & if we can.

Although I REALLY miss the simplicity of our older DM T@B (we stayed at campgrounds with shore power & bathrooms), I have to admit I really enjoy the convenience of hot & cold running water (36 gal total) and a working toilet! I can see why newer T@Bs, with those amenities, are popular.

It's not something one would want to live in, parked, for an extended time, but it really is great for covering territory, pulling over --anywhere-- and starting out again the next morning. "Breaking camp" consists of turning the key and driving away, for the most part.

It's "footprint," even with the spare mounted to the back, is the same as a 4-dr long-bed pickup. Remove the spare, and it's the same as a 4-dr short-bed pickup -- so parking is hardly ever an issue. Same goes for driving in a city --which I avoid like the plague if I can, simply because I hate heavy traffic. Only restriction is the height, at 9' 7".

(Quick: driving in Canada-- will it clear 3m??? --Or, how to do mental math in a hurry!)

I'd really hate to discourage someone from considering a purchase of this kind of rig --and yeah, they're pricey-- but these new diesels do require strict adherence to maintenance by very qualified people... who can be hard to find, unfortunately.

All in all, we love ours and I wouldn't change our decision to buy it, but.... fingers crossed!

Still really miss our T@B, though.....

Ratkity

I still love the class B's. They are next in my heart to T@Bs. The price tag isn't!!! T@B wins hands down. I was considering a low mileage (gas?) class B to tow a small trailer for the motorcycle. I'd love the intermediate version of Roadtrek, even if diesel. Dream on for me!!!.. even used, those class B's are like T@Bs. They keep their value!!!

Some B's are a little big. I think they call those a B+. Still a sweet unit.

Thinking about gas mileage, the gas class B's would have horrid gas mileage (I would assume). 

It's not just the Sprinter diesels that have issues with maintenance. I think it's a lot of diesels. A friend has a 2004 Dodge dually that she uses for her farm vehicle ($60k new in 2004). She can't find a decent mechanic to save her life. I've even worked on it and found a cross-threaded gas filter... geesh. Really mechanics? Alas. It's cool that the Sprinter has so many warnings (although scary hehe). 

Even the old Dodges (gas) had a computer that would cripple the vehicle in LHM when there was a serious malfunction. Sister experienced that one.

If you get too frustrated with that Roadtrek and want a quick sale for a rock bottom price, call me!

Jdcouple

Is there anyone out there pulling with a Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel? How are those numbers looking? How's it tow?

Ratkity

I thought the diesel Jeep hadn't come to the U.S. yet? Maybe it was a special Jeep model. Sis' BF was talking about it.

rkj__

Ratkity said:

I thought the diesel Jeep hadn't come to the U.S. yet? Maybe it was a special Jeep model. Sis' BF was talking about it.

No Wrangler diesel available in the US yet, but the Grand Cherokee has offered a diesel for several years.

Zurdo5150

irvingj said:

"...free myself from towing and be able to stop and sightsee on the way in small parking spots, then just pull into the campground at the end of the day."


Well, there is certainly that-- ours has 300W of solar on the roof and a 3KW inverter, so we really never have to "plug in." I can run the electric-only fridge and the exhaust fan all night while parked, and can still turn on the inverter and make coffee with a small 120V maker the next morning (there are 4 190AH 6V batteries in series-parallel). By 11AM, just with a sunny day, everything's charged back up again. This one also has an additional alternator under the hood which is dedicated to the coach batteries, so simply starting the engine will also recharge them. (No separate generator.)

I gather this model was Roadtrek's intermediate version, before their "all-electric" E-trek models came out. In any case, it works very well for us. My batteries are the valve-regulated flooded wet cell lead-acid type (VRFLA), no lithiums.

Hot weather, however, is another story: it does have a 120V rooftop AC, and that can run on battery/inverter power only, but only for a half hour or less. Otherwise, if AC is required, shore power's required. So, we stay away from really hot weather when & if we can.

Although I REALLY miss the simplicity of our older DM T@B (we stayed at campgrounds with shore power & bathrooms), I have to admit I really enjoy the convenience of hot & cold running water (36 gal total) and a working toilet! I can see why newer T@Bs, with those amenities, are popular.

It's not something one would want to live in, parked, for an extended time, but it really is great for covering territory, pulling over --anywhere-- and starting out again the next morning. "Breaking camp" consists of turning the key and driving away, for the most part.

It's "footprint," even with the spare mounted to the back, is the same as a 4-dr long-bed pickup. Remove the spare, and it's the same as a 4-dr short-bed pickup -- so parking is hardly ever an issue. Same goes for driving in a city --which I avoid like the plague if I can, simply because I hate heavy traffic. Only restriction is the height, at 9' 7".

(Quick: driving in Canada-- will it clear 3m??? --Or, how to do mental math in a hurry!)

I'd really hate to discourage someone from considering a purchase of this kind of rig --and yeah, they're pricey-- but these new diesels do require strict adherence to maintenance by very qualified people... who can be hard to find, unfortunately.

All in all, we love ours and I wouldn't change our decision to buy it, but.... fingers crossed!

Still really miss our T@B, though.....

@irvingj Are you able to fit all 4 batteries in the tongue box and if you are, what size are they?

irvingj

Oops...  Zurdo, I kinda hijacked this thread (apologies, everyone!).

I was talking about our T@B's replacement, a self-contained (but small) RV, based on a Mercedes Sprinter (photo above). This devolved (?) from a discussion of diesels -- and how complex new ones are. Sorry for the confusion.

Justin_in_Seattle

So far the BMW X1 gets about 16-17 MPG on flat highways near sea level while towing our T@b 400. Without the trailer it normally gets about 30 MPG highway.

We haven't towed in the mountains yet, but I'm sure the mileage will go way down. Our TV engine has a turbocharger, which supposedly helps maintain power and mileage at higher altitudes (fingers crossed).

We keep it right at 65 MPH even when the speed limit is higher because I read somewhere that RV tires are only rated to 65, and an accident above that speed could cause your insurance company to deny your claim.

Also the engine is only a 2.0 liter 4-cylinder with 228 hp and 258 lb-ft, so we don't want to stress it too much.

irvingj

"...supposedly helps maintain power and mileage at higher altitudes..."

Absolutely. With modern computer-controlled fuel injection and variable-geometry turbo boost, having to either fiddle with carburetor jetting or suffering with lower output at high altitudes is pretty much a thing of the past. Drive on!

KBaggins1

We tow with a 2017 Ford Transit 3.2 L turbo diesel. We ordered it specifically for towing. It is a cargo van, only 2 seats, regular wheelbase and low roof model. I have not posted here about mileage because it varies so much. We have a little over 20000 km on the van so far and you can basically get what ever mileage you want out of this thing. Set the cruise at 50 mph and enjoy 25 mpg. Drive 70 mph in to a headwind and get 12 mpg. Drive 70 mph with a tailwind and get 17mpg. Speed and wind have more affect on mpg than hills and elevation do. What we really love about this TV is the way it drives like a big car and the quiet. No screaming up hills at 5000 rpm.It seldom downshifts going up a hill. We have enough space to stuff it full of everything we want to take and it makes no difference in the mileage no matter how much weight is on board. We made a choice to go with a TV big enough that we could take everything we wanted with us and not have to dig to get at stuff. We are both retired and our camping trips now are at least a month long so we like to be comfortable. The only thing we do not like is when we are travelling in the USA is that diesel fuel is 40 cents a gallon more than gasoline in most of the states we travel through. In Canada diesel is cheaper than gas, except in winter when it is slightly more expensive. Makes me wonder if overall operating cost would be cheaper in the USA with an ecoboost gas engine Transit. 

Roamey

Another post described the problems Mercedes has with its diesel engine emission systems causing problems requiring repeated expensive repairs. Do you have any knowledge of whatever engine Ford uses having similar problems?

KBaggins1

All the reseach we did before we bought the diesel transit indicates very few reported problems. The only recurring problem I noticed is an antifreeze leak in the engine exhaust recirculating cooler. This always gets fixed under warranty and it will probably result in a recall in the future. The diesel is a 3.2 L in line 5 cylinder built by Ford. Sold here since 2015 but this is the same truck ( don't know how many updates there has been) that has been available in Europe for over 30 years now. In a Car&Driver comparison test with the Mercedes and the Dodge Ram van , the Ford van was the best in nearly every category. Take a look as you drive down the road and you will be amazed at how many of these vans have been sold.   

Roamey

Thanks!

irvingj

That sounds encouraging! Interesting that M-B dropped their inline 5 in favor of the current OM642 V6 3-liter.... I always thought their IL5 diesel was a pretty good engine.

Didn't realize that's what the Ford Transits were using. And you're right, I've seen a bunch of them on the road. They're certainly better looking, IMO, that that butt-ugly front-wheel drive Dodge!  (OK, I'll admit I'm biased -- I call them the "Ford Sprinter" or the "Dodge Sprinter".... )

Keep us posted as to how it works out!

Roamey

What also might be encouraging is that, allegedly, MB will have a new engine for 2018 Sprinter. 

Jdcouple

Please oh please let the diesel out of the transit makes its way in to the new Ford Ranger! 

KBaggins1

There is supposed to be a diesel F150 coming out but I have nothing concrete about that. GM has beat Ford to the smallish pickup diesel game with the Canyon and Colorado models. I have a lot of friends that have the Dodge with the Cummins diesel and most of them love it. The funny thing is that Ford owned Cummins but Dodge had an iron clad contract that does not allow that engines use in other brands so they can't use it in a Ford. The neat thing about the Transit diesel is its compact size. It could probably fit in a Honda Accord or any mid size car.

irvingj

Funny... years ago, I think maybe 1974, I asked around about swapping the gas 307 V8 in my '72 Blazer for a diesel... "can't be done" I was told, "it'd shake the thing apart! Forget it!"

My how times change....   (Kept that Blazer for over 30 years....)

4ncar

irvingj said:

Funny... years ago, I think maybe 1974, I asked around about swapping the gas 307 V8 in my '72 Blazer for a diesel... "can't be done" I was told, "it'd shake the thing apart! Forget it!"

My how times change....   (Kept that Blazer for over 30 years....)

Nothing is impossible! A swap on an "older" unit such as your old K5 would be easy now compared to what has to occur with newer vehicles with ECU's etc.  Often the swap "kits" which include the wire harness interfaces are just as expensive as the replacement motor.  Case point: 5.7 Hemi swap into my Jeep;  $6,000.00 for the "kit," and another $6,000.00 for the motor.  Cummins 4BT swaps are less, but not by much!

keagan

Does anyone tow their T@B with a Subaru Crosstrek?

rkj__

keagan said:

Does anyone tow their T@B with a Subaru Crosstrek?

Hopefully not.  A T@b would exceed the tow rating of the car, which has a reputation for not having much extra power.  A T@g would likely be a better match. 

Jdcouple

Anyone out there towing there t@b with the chevy/gmc colorado/canyon with 2.8 baby duramax thats tuned? Im reading some amazing numbers during my shoping.